Thread View: soc.couples.intercultural
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Started by Edward Ng
Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:00
DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: Edward Ng
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:00
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I once heard someone say that it's the uneducated people who tend to be racist. Well, that ain't necessarily so! Racists come in all shapes, sizes and colour. This happened approximately three years ago back in early September. I was going through a particularly rough period in my life at the time, dealing with personal problems. In spite of being in law school, I had very low self-esteem. I mention this because I believe it made me more vulnerable to bigotry. When you're feeling down and others pick up on it, it's like having a sign that says "kick me" on your back. I think it all started on the day of orientation. I didn't feel like socializing with the rest of my classmates while we were waiting outside of the classroom for the orientation (re: brainwashing) to start. I was standing apart from everyone else and noticably distraught. I caught the eye of these two larger guys in the class. I started feeling uncomfortable. Then, one of my friends came over, a pretty female classmate. She asked me what was up and I told her a little bit of my situation and she offered to help. Anyways, I think this got those guys a little jealous. I've never been short of friends, otoh, for those two guys, they hardly had anyone outside of themselves. They were so close they could have been brothers. I was at the back of the class listening to the orientation lectures. I was feeling really uncomfortable. A friend in the second-year of the program came in and immediately started talking to me at the back of the class. We talked a little bit and this conversation got a little bit personal. Unfortunately, those same two guys who were staring at me earlier were nearby. I believe that they picked up on a little of our conversation. Unfortunately, these two guys also had a few classes with me. For almost every day the next two weeks, they harrassed me in class before the professor walked in. Often their comments were laced with insults like "chink" and they talked about kung-fu movies and made all the accompanying noises. Sometimes they were bold enough to say it when they were standing behind me while waiting for class. Sometimes they used that personal information they overheard in the first day of school. Often they made these comments while sitting some distance away. Their conversation wasn't that quiet either - I could hear them from the other end of the room and so could some other classmates (one guy was squirming in his seat because he felt very uncomfortable hearing this stuff). There was no mistaking it - they were directing their comments at me. The sad part is that no one bothered to say one word. On top of being upset over my personal problems, these guys just pushed me to the edge. I had had it. I told a couple of friends and my family about it. I wanted to "call one of them out" and make an example of him. I believed that this would convince the other guy that I was serious and wasn't going to put up with any of their shit anymore. I didn't care if I got hurt in the process. I just wanted to make my point. I wasn't able to concentrate on my schoolwork anymore. I told my older brother of my plan. When he was younger, he used to fight alot. To my surprise, he was against it. He reminded me of all the legal implications of what may happen. He also reminded me that these guys may be "connected" ie. with Aryan Nations. That brought me to my senses and killed any desire to deal with it in a physical way. The problem was that something still had to be done - I could not and would not put up with that behaviour any longer. I was on my own. I thought about the situation over and over and how it made me feel. I also thought about what was going through the bigots' heads and how they must be feeling. They're really getting off on this - getting off on seeing me scared, getting off on getting away with what they're saying without any retribution, etc. They're getting off on attacking my insecurities while they're probably insecure themselves. I'm also thinking too - what's the worst that can happen if I confront them or stand up to them? Not much - they're both in law school and physically assaulting me would be a very stupid move on their part. A criminal record would effectively preclude their admission to the bar - even if the school decided they could finish their degrees. [The law society is very strict about who they admit into the legal profession. They are concerned about the reputation of the profession and its members are expected to be morally and ethically upstanding individuals.] So the fact that they were bigger than me (6'0" and 6'4", I'm 5'7") no longer mattered. So I decided that I would treat them like any other classmate, instead of being scared and avoiding them. I would try to talk to them too. I started sitting beside them in class. If a seat was free I usually sat beside the larger of the two. I would usually say, "hi, how's it going" as I came to sit beside them. They would just sort of glare at me and say hi and then continue their conversation. There were no more insults after this, even after I moved back to sit in my original location in the classes. An interesting thing happened. Later on in the next year, the larger of the two started being more friendly to me. He wasn't hanging around the other one much any more. He started hanging around the more popular people. One day after we listened to a lecture, we were waiting for an elevator to go upstairs for the wine and cheese reception. He started talking to me and being nice and stuff. I was really puzzled. Why was this guy who tormented me in my initial weeks at law school now being so friendly? Was he feeling guilty or what? Well, from that point on, he has been friendly with me and has treated me like any other person in law school. I haven't exactly made friends with him, but at least we're on better terms these days. I talked recently to a professor of psychology about this change in behaviour and attitude. Why did it happen? He told me that people who are insecure and feel bad about themselves and who have to put down others to make themselves feel good, sometimes use things that are "convenient" (ie. skin colour, height, etc.) to put the other person down. So these people aren't really true bigots. They are just assholes. The other guy is still an asshole. At a party one day, he sort of had his comeuppance. I don't know what he said, but an even larger guy in law school than him came up to him from behind and put him in a chokehold and lifted him off the ground. He was literally struggling for air. The bigger guy then just let him fall to the ground. Cheers, Ed
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: Frank Heisler
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
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Edward Ng (eng@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: fight alot. To my surprise, he was against it. He reminded me
: of all the legal implications of what may happen. He also reminded
: me that these guys may be "connected" ie. with Aryan Nations. That
: chokehold and lifted him off the ground. He was literally struggling
: for air. The bigger guy then just let him fall to the ground.
This is what worries me... That this sort of thing is what constitutes
the available queue of professional 'law-men' in society...
--
Cheeri'o...
Frank...
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Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: odysseus
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
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Hear hear. Those two guys were pigs. The 2nd fellow who befriended you still hasn't apologized or acknowledged his inappropriate, hurtful actions though. There are far too many "sheeps" going to law school, and not enough "defenders of human rights". You are not alone though, you never are. These guys had and have everything to lose in their law school and subsequent careers. Their intimidation of you has caused you much pain, needless and unwanted. You should and still can report them to the administration at the Faculty of Law, as well as the Ombudsman at the University Administration building. It's scary to think these jackasses will actually work as lawyers one day, so-called ethical upstanding men-sounds like they are mean spiteful, petty emotionally damaged machismo driven asses.
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: toyboat
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
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Edward Ng (eng@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
(much snipped)
: I talked recently to a professor of psychology about this change
: in behaviour and attitude. Why did it happen? He told me that
: people who are insecure and feel bad about themselves and who have
: to put down others to make themselves feel good, sometimes use things
: that are "convenient" (ie. skin colour, height, etc.) to put the
: other person down. So these people aren't really true bigots. They are
: just assholes.
: The other guy is still an asshole. At a party one day, he sort
: of had his comeuppance. I don't know what he said, but an even larger
: guy in law school than him came up to him from behind and put him in a
: chokehold and lifted him off the ground. He was literally struggling
: for air. The bigger guy then just let him fall to the ground.
: Cheers,
: Ed
I like this story a lot more than the first. It's more positive and
you prevailed by persuasion instead of force, in one case.
You learned a lot about human nature that will serve you well in your
legal and personal life.
You had the satisfaction of being proven correct without wasting
valuable energy in a possibly time-consuming and soul-destroying
battle.
I think it's like that old song: "You gotta know when to hold 'em,
know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run."
I guess you have to know when to pull out the stops and fight with
all your might, too.
It's finding the wisdom to figure out which course of action is the
best that's hard. What is the most pragmatic isn't always what will
heal your soul. What seems the most soul-satisfying may prove the
opposite in hindsight. Sometimes, what appears the least practical
course of action turns out to be the best one all around, surprisingly.
I'm still learning. I think that I always will be.
Best of luck to you, Ed. I'm learning from you.
Regards,
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shane <toyboat@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: Edward Ng
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:00
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In soc.couples.intercultural canasian@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote: : Edward Ng (eng@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote: : : : fight alot. To my surprise, he was against it. He reminded me : : : of all the legal implications of what may happen. He also reminded : : : me that these guys may be "connected" ie. with Aryan Nations. That : <snip> : : : chokehold and lifted him off the ground. He was literally struggling : : : for air. The bigger guy then just let him fall to the ground. : Frank Heisler (frankie@dns.tlug.org) wrote: : : This is what worries me... That this sort of thing is what constitutes : : the available queue of professional 'law-men' in society... : I think what's sad is that the other law students stood around saying : nothing. Why did they go to law school, in the first place? To make a : difference? Or to not "get involved". Sad. And depressing. Yes. Unfortunately, that incident was only the tip of the iceberg, with the worst offences committed by members of faculty. It's so shameful. They preach to students about ethics and upholding the reputation of the profession and yet they do the exact opposite. I could write a book about what I have experienced and seen in law school. It would sell really well because it would make people's heads spin. Little do members of the general public realize that there are people here who are getting away with murder and everyone turns a blind eye to it. Joe Public surely wouldn't get away with that sort of behaviour. I won't get into these stories. No one should be above the law, even those who uphold it. Actually, maybe I would have to sell it as fiction - no one would believe those things have really happened. It's not just stuff in law school that has me concerned, it's the anecdotal accounts about what happens when people are in the legal profession too. It's just unbelievable. I've had to ask myself, "Does one have to sell their soul to the devil to be successful in this occupation?" and "When did this profession become so driven to meet the 'bottom line' ($) that this meant sacrificing ethics and morality?" What I see happening in law school is only a microcosm of what is happening in the profession as a whole. It's no wonder then that so many people drop out of this profession, esp. women. Many see that it just didn't turn out to be the way they thought it would be. The media is much to blame for these perceptions. Ed
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: x
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:00
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canasian@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote: >Edward Ng (eng@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote: >: : fight alot. To my surprise, he was against it. He reminded me >: : of all the legal implications of what may happen. He also reminded >: : me that these guys may be "connected" ie. with Aryan Nations. That ><snip> >: : chokehold and lifted him off the ground. He was literally struggling >: : for air. The bigger guy then just let him fall to the ground. > >Frank Heisler (frankie@dns.tlug.org) wrote: >: This is what worries me... That this sort of thing is what constitutes >: the available queue of professional 'law-men' in society... > >I think what's sad is that the other law students stood around saying >nothing. Why did they go to law school, in the first place? To make a >difference? Or to not "get involved". Sad. And depressing. > I think people outta wise-up. There is nothing that so-called professionals like lawyers and doctors do that they should deserve to be held in a higher regard. The world revolves around the almighty buck..
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: eps1032
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:00
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Frank Heisler (frankie@dns.tlug.org) wrote: : Edward Ng (eng@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote: : : fight alot. To my surprise, he was against it. He reminded me : : of all the legal implications of what may happen. He also reminded : : me that these guys may be "connected" ie. with Aryan Nations. That : : chokehold and lifted him off the ground. He was literally struggling : : for air. The bigger guy then just let him fall to the ground. : This is what worries me... That this sort of thing is what constitutes : the available queue of professional 'law-men' in society... Well, I would have been glad the little bastard got a chokhold. Sometimes you do have to phisically let someone know what they are doin is wrong, and people dont like it. The guy had it coming, he deserved it. I owuld have done something, Im so against racism i would go after a bigger man to defend someone. I hope the guy isnt bothering you anymore, cause I owuld then fear for his saftey, cause he would prbly get it good! 2nd LT Sean O'Sullivan 244th Midnight Furies Space: Above and Beyond : -- : Cheeri'o... : Frank... : -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: Walter Petelka
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:00
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This is the second posting about bigotry by the same person and I have come to a number of conclusions: - he is extremely paranoid - he is a dickhead and his ethnicity has nothing to do with the way people talk to him - he is oversensitive - he is extremely insecure and needs some self esteem training - he is trolling........................ Edward Ng <eng@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote: >:] >:]I once heard someone say that it's the uneducated people who tend >:]to be racist. Well, that ain't necessarily so! Racists come in >:]all shapes, sizes and colour. >:] >:] >:]This happened approximately three years ago back in early September. snip..... Walter Petelka,Toronto, Ont. <I have opinions on everything and they are mine alone but I only get passionate about sex not issues.:-)>
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: kaos
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:00
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Walter Petelka (wpetelka@idirect.com) wrote: : This is the second posting about bigotry by the same person and I have : come to a number of conclusions: As regards the second posting, I believe it was done due to the response generated by the first one. I personally find his experiences both saddening (that bigotry still exists) and uplifting (in that he's not responding to the bigotry by sinking to the same level.) As for your personal attacks, I'll wait until you show some actual supporting data for your "conclusions" before I pay them any heed. Except this one... : - he is a dickhead and his ethnicity has nothing to do with the way people talk to him I can't really say anything about his "real life" personality, but I can say that his online personality shows no trace of this... : - he is extremely insecure and needs some self esteem training Okay, another one... again, if you had bothered to look into his responses to what he perceived as bigotry, you would notice that this is not the case. It takes confidence to stand up to an offence, even one imagined through paranoia (as you claim...) : - he is trolling........................ No, I think that's you... : Walter Petelka,Toronto, Ont. : <I have opinions on everything and they are mine alone : but I only get passionate about sex not issues.:-)> And I would be the opposite on that one... -- In chaos all things are possible. You don't know me. No one knows me. I can be reached at kaos@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Re: DEALING w/ BIGOTS in law school
Author: Seven Of Thirteen
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:00
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:00
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In article <33dc16dd.280911742@n3.idirect.com>, wpetelka@idirect.com (Walter Petelka) wrote:
>This is the second posting about bigotry by the same person and I have
>come to a number of conclusions:
>
>- he is extremely paranoid
Put yourself in the shoes of a non-white person in a white world
and perhaps you might gain a better understanding of his viewpoints,
if you're up to the challenge.
>- he is a dickhead and his ethnicity has nothing to do with the way people talk
> to him
Wouldn't you act like a 'dickhead' (as you say) if you were
mistreated for something so superficial as your skin colour or eye
socket shape?
>- he is oversensitive
And you are undersensitive.
>- he is extremely insecure and needs some self esteem training
And you are insecure if you feel the need to speak out
against someone who's protesting against bigotry.
>- he is trolling........................
Like you, trolls aren't as articulate as the eloquence of
Ed Ng's post.
>Walter Petelka,Toronto, Ont.
><I have opinions on everything and they are mine alone
> but I only get passionate about sex not issues.:-)>
It's so easy to stick your penis into an orifice rather than
to intelligently analyse and understand the misfortunes of others.
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