🚀 go-pugleaf

I was going to ignore the following because Jan's reply
almost isn't worth replying to, but then I thought, what
the hell.


jan@orchide.dialix.oz.au (jan) wrote :

>Iain Jameson <Iain.Jamesonx@dsto.defence.gov.au> writes:

>> >Iain Jameson <Iain.Jamesonx@dsto.defence.gov.au> writes:
>> 
>> >> David Moss wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > RTI is not about "the right to die" as many of its proponents claim.
>> >> > We already have a god-given (or natural if you prefer) right to die
>> >> > which every one of us will one day exercise. RTI is about the right
>> >> > to kill. IMHO that right should be as limited, tightly controlled and
>> >> > if possible, never exercised. RTI would make it commonplace.
>> >> > 
>> >> 
>> >> Yes it is. Again with this 'god-given' thingy.
>> >> You have no right forcing this 'god-given' thiungy onto anyone
>> >> who does not believe it, or want it. 
>> 
>> >Interesting that you should focus on "god given" instead of "natural" 
>> >which is in parenthesis and might be in this case considered an defining
>> >term.  I think most reasonable people would see "god given" as the vernacula
>> >of "natural" in this context.  Is this some sort of counter bigottry bigottr
>> 
>> Because David means 'god-given'. Or at least that's how he comes
>> across.
>> Perhaps David should never have used the 'god given' expression 
>> if he didn't mean it.

> To you any way. because you cannot (or are unwilling to) conceive
> of a secular argument against euthanasia.  If the veracular was never
> employed it would make for a pretty dull argument. 


Wrong again Jan. 

Oh by the way, this arguement is boring.

You and David Moss regurgitate the same old nonsense,
post after post. Saying nothing, contributing nothing,
post after post.

Very dull, very boring.


> >> 
> >> Which is the whole point. So please stop forcing your personal opinions
> >> and religion onto people who don't want them.
> >> 
> 
> >I consider you to be forcing your opinions down my throat.
> >Kindly stop it.
> 
>> How can I be Jan? I did say please!

> The same way David M is "forcing" his "personal opinions"
> on you.   

> What difference does "please" make in any case?  For that
> matter what difference does it make if the arguments presented in
> this thread are secular or religious.  Every one has a right to
> present his argument and express his opinion.


Oh Jan, should I have included a smiley face here?

Everyone does have the right to present an arguement.
I have never said otherwise. I never will.

To continue ...


>> 
>> >Unless of course you are willing to support freedom of speach.
>> 
>> 
>> What? Like you are supporting freedom of choice?
>> 

> To bring it back to the point: read the first paragraph again.
> It is a "right to kill" with a side issue on the right to express an
> opinion, which you started, that we are discussing.  


Wrong again Jan. But then, you always have been haven't you?

Express an opinion all you want Jan. Wouldn't want to stop you,
wouldn't try.



>> I'm quite happy for you and David to have opinions. That's your right.
>> Try reading the whole thread before saying otherwise.
>> 

> But not the right to express it.  You say so above, in this
> thread, it is not deleted in this very post, I quote: "You have
> *no right* to force this god-given thiungy..." (asterisks mine
>typo yours).  This is the issue no need to read the rest of the
> thread: it is right here!!!    


Do try to understand the issue Jan.

Express away.

The second you force that opinion on me by denying me the right
to choose the mode of my death, I take offence.

That is what you and David Moss would do. Otherwise you would allow
me the choice to ask for assistance to die with dignity. Something 
you don't want me to have. That is what I am labeling 'force', not 
your right to an opinion, or your right to express that opinion.

I don't care where the opinion comes from. But force it on me,
and I take offence. That is what you and David Moss are doing
when you argue that the voluntarty euthanasia law should be revoked. 

Express your opinion all you want. Don't dare try to tell me how
to live, or die.

Sorry about repeating myself, but I want this to be clear.


>> It's your belief that no one is allowed choice that annoys me.
>>

> YOU have no idea of my belief.  If you are annoyed with
> what you think is my belief then that is entirely your
> problem, not mine  


Don't know, don't care, as long as you don't force it on me.
That is the issue here.

When you have decided your opinion is more valid than mine, 
and that I shouldn't have the choice to ask to die with dignity,
that is forcing your opinion on me.

Calling for the Northern Territories euthansaia law to be
revoked is forcing your opinion on me. 

Feel free to say you disagree with the law, but the second
you call for its removal, you force your opinion onto me.

I, on the other hand, would allow you the choice to use the
law, or not, as you decide.


That is the issue here.


>> The choice to voluntary end your own life in particular.
>> You have no right to deny me, or anyone else, that choice.
>> 

> Feel free to jump of a cliff any time you like, unless you
> are clinically depressed I won't even try to stop you, it's
> your choice.  I would not dream of denying you the right to
> kill yourself.  I would however deny you the right to insist
> that someone else *should*  do it for you.  This is no longer
> merely a question of your choice. 


Jan, you just have no idea do you? 
No one is going to do it for me, if it comes to that.
Do try to understand the issue.

The act allows for the terminally ill to ask for assistance
in ending their own life. They end their own life. How many
times must this be repeated until you finally understand?


You have decided that I should not be able to ask for that 
assistance. That is 'forcing' your opinion on me. You may not 
do that Jan.

Fell free to express the opinion that you feel that is wrong, but
will respect my wishes.

Feel free to express an opinion that you feel the law is wrong,
for whatever reason you have, but will respect the terminally ill
persons wish to use it, if that is what they want. Not you, them.

See Jan? You have an opinion, you are expressing your opinion,
but are not forcing your opinion onto me, or anyone else.

A decent person would allow the terminally ill the choice,
and then respect that choice. No force.


Live and let live Jan. 
That includes death.

This concludes the lesson on what I mean by force.
Apologies for any confusion, and the repitition.


>Jan


Iain.


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