🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <JdfXXMn02q9O-pn2-mVPv3V0QoVud@localhost>,
	aaron.evans@mail.utexas.edu (Aaron Evans) writes:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:01:55, hyde@tamu.edu (William Hyde) wrote:

>> > Free trade (voluntary exchange of goods and labor between individuals)
>> > is a fundamental principle of capitalism.  Individual freedom 
>> > (ownership of oneself and one's labor)
>  
>> 	Interesting that you think that this is the whole of
>> 	the definition of individual freedom.
> 
>  But what really falls outside my definition?

	Everything except economic freedom.

> Capitalism, btw, is the only political system

	Capitalism is not a political system.  It is an economic
	system.

commensurate with 
> individual freedom.  Bc like I said in capitalism relationships are on
> a voluntary basis. 

	But they aren't, always.  See the Rockefeller examples
	below.

 So when I said capitalism demands individual 
> freedom, I should have said individual freedom demands capitalism.

	That makes more sense to me.  However, given that
	your definitions of "freedom" and "capitalism" differ
	from those of the English language, our agreement on
	this is more apparent than real.
  
>> 	When John D Rockefeller was preventing
>> 	the railroads from carrying his competitor's goods
>> 	he was being a capitalist, but clearly opposing free
>> 	trade.
> 
> I said free trade requires those transactions to be voluntary.  
> Rockefeller isn't obligated to provide transporation.

	Where did you get the idea I said that?

	Rockefeller forced the railroads to pay him a subsidy
	for every dollars worth of his competitior's product
	that they carried - on pain of losing his (much larger)
	business.  Clear?

	The monopoly here is not perfect, but strong, and it
	is not rail, but oil.

	And while we are on the subject of John D, what about his
	habit of forced buyouts of small companies?  When he
	offered to buy your company, either you sold at the price
	he named, or he lowered prices in your area until you went
	out of business.

	Where is the freedom in that?

	How do you propose to stop such predatory action?  Or is
	is OK with you?

	You seem to agree in your responses to Adrian that
	some things should be disallowed.  Who makes these
	decisions and how are they enforced?  Will this
	be cost free?  If not, who pays for it?  And if
	you do, through taxes, where is your perfect
	"capitalism" (your definition, this time).


  On the monopoly
> question, the government created the railroad monopolies by granting 
> subsidies that drove others out of business.  I don't see what you're 
> bitching about.

	Like when there were four railroads running into
	New York and Cornelius Vanderbilt owned three and
	wanted to buy the fourth?   I had no idea there was so
	much government interference in the mid 1800s.

>> 	Voluntary socialism is offered in these little things
>> 	called elections, by parties called socialist.  Sometimes
>> 	they are even defeated when in power.
> 
> By voluntary, I meant on an individual basis.  It isn't voluntary to 
> be voted into slavery.

	So in other words your problem is with democracy.

	You know that socialist governments are sometimes
	defeated, don't you?  How would you deal with a
	poor person who remarked on such a defeat:

	"It isn't voluntary to be voted into poverty"?

	On an individual basis there are communes and co-ops,
	such as the type of organization the S&Ls were before
	they were privatized in the 1980s.  And we saw what a
	triumph that was.

> 
>>>  Because if it were voluntary, only people who consume more
>> > than they produce would join (and that wouldn't work, now would it?)
>  
>> 	Your deduction is false, as rich people have joined and
>> 	contributed to Socialist parties in the past.  You seem to
>> 	be implicitly assuming that greed is the only motivation
>> 	humans have.

> I guess I was assuming that we are talking about people with 
> self-respect.

	It is truly astonishing that you would characterize someone
	willing to give his money for a cause he believes in
	as lacking self-respect.

	Does "having self-respect" translate into "being a
	capitalist" (your definition)?


>> 	So you have a brand-new definiton of facism to go with
>> 	your new definition of capitalism.  I doubt that Mussolini
>> 	or Franco would buy your definition, though.
> 
> Nazi Germany and Italy maintained nominal property rights, but all was
> at the disposal of the totalitarian government.  What's wrong with 
> that, and why isn't the USA looking that way?  I mean, our elections 
> don't do anything, so why isn't it totalitarian?

	Well, it is almost too simple, but here goes.

	(1) You have recourse in the courts, whereas trying to
	sue Hitler would have been suicidal.

	(2) You are allowed to speak out, as you are doing, and
	even organize against policies you do not like (remember
	Prop 13?).

	(3) You can vote the bastards out.


	If you argue that (3) never happens, well it seems that
	your opinions are in the minority.  Too bad.

	I have an idea for you.  Large ice shelves frequently
	break off of Antarctica.  These have a life expectancy of
	many decades.  Why don't you and some like-minded types
	set up your own state there?  You could fish and run
	tourist operations for subsistance, and might even
	qualify as a tax haven.

	And the best part is that it is an ice raft, so when the
	inevitable disagreements come about, you can separate by
	cutting it into smaller and smaller pieces, until each
	one of you is floating in a hut on a 20 foot square
	piece of ice in the Antarctic.  Paradise at last. Freedom.


						I III




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