🚀 go-pugleaf

In <55d5ut$c1u@ns1.vrx.net> bob@news.vrx.net (Bob Allisat) writes: 
>
> In my opinion there is no financial crisis in the Toronto 
> Freenet. The Internet business in Metro Toronto is a hundred-
> billion dollar game. 

                     Ummm, care to provide 
                     a cite for the hundred
                     billion dollar claim?
-- 
                Gary
 
________

vive the millenni
um three cheers for labor
give all things to enni
one bugger thy nabor
             __________e. e. cummings

Bob Allisat (bob@news.vrx.net) wrote:

:         Colin McGregor        Tom Evans

Tom, if you get it i'll tell you how to save the thing.  It's easy to do.


Regards
Joe
-- 
Do you hear something ticking ...........................................
baptista@panix.com              http://www.panix.com/~baptista/B.O.M.B/

In article <55d5ut$c1u@ns1.vrx.net>, Bob Allisat <bob@news.vrx.net> wrote:
|
| A proposal has been put forward by the past Board of
| Directors that a pay for use system be instituted at the
| Toronto Freenet. This would mean that if you wanted more
| than a minimum of services you would have to pay for it.
|
|[...]
|
| Instead of charging for services everything must remain 
| FREE. While limitations may be imposed on system access
| in respect to time on-line per day, etc. there must be no
| charges imposed. We must concentrate on fund raising, on 
| extracting donations from wealthy or employed members and
| on establishing corporate and government sources of funds.


	Your statements would have much more effect were
	they coupled with suggested strategies to achieve
	such ends and your offer to help with the work
	required to make such funding efforts possible.


-- 
  ,u,	 Bruce Becker		Toronto, Ontario	1 416 699 1868
a /i/	 Internet: bdb@gts.org	Uucp: ...!gts!bdb
 `\o\-e	 The concept of "trolling" was invented long before Usenet;
 _< /_	 	try not answering a ringing phone sometime.  - Malcolm Y

In article <55d5ut$c1u@ns1.vrx.net>, Bob Allisat <bob@news.vrx.net> wrote:
| The immanent collapse of the Toronto Freenet has been blamed 
| on some mysterious financial crisis resulting from government 
| cut-backs. Well for one the government funding has continued 
| unabated until very recently. And for another everyone knew 
| that the end was coming to unlimited taxpayer money. We had 
| YEARS to prepare for this day. And still the crisis came.
|
| In my opinion there is no financial crisis in the Toronto 
| Freenet. The Internet business in Metro Toronto is a hundred-
| billion dollar game. The insignificant amount of money and 
| resources the Toronto Freenet requires to function could be
| paid for by five minutes of revenue from the profit making 
| computer sector. There is no financial crisis in the Toronto 
| Freenet.


	Bob, you are very unrealistic on this point.  You need
	to speak stratigically rather than rhetorically; when
	one does it seems quickly apparent that there is no
	a priori reason for the profit-making sector to give
	the TFN one red cent in general (but some have indeed
	seen that it was useful nonetheless).  The TFN has
	failed to properly fundraise by giving the taks to
	well-meaning volunteers when real hardnosed expertise
	was in fact required.  No blame, the approaches that
	were taken were very well intentioned, and the people
	involved worked very hard on the initiatives that
	were taken.  The problem seemed to be that the funding
	focus was not necessarily properly defined, so the
	work that was done was not always fruitful.  Such are
	the steps taken in young & inexperienced organisations,
	not everything works as intended.


	hindsight tells us much about what happened; not all
	the results were good, but things have worked well
	enough to attract the attention of a number of good
	community people to try to undo the mistakes, and
	more importantly, build on the many real successes
	which the TFN has achieved.


| The Toronto Freenet is in MORAL crisis. It has no values, 
| no vision, no core truths to fight for or believe in. The 
| past leadership have chosen narrow, mean spirited and really 
| unpleasantly small concepts and feelings to express. There 
| is no way on earth.general any decent or creative people 
| could be attracted to this group of bigoted, stupid looking 
| louts. The Internet community respects INDEPENDENCE, TRUTH, 
| LIBERTY and a SENSE OF HUMOUR above all. And recoils from
| almost everything the Toronto Freenet has come to stand for 
| to this day.


	Bob, you have no business saying such abusive and
	inaccurate things.  The fact is that we have been
	discussing the TFN vision and core truths in these
	groups for some time now, and it should be apparent
	without the need for negativity that these things
	most definitely exist and are indeed a basic part
	of the TFN structure.


	You are welcome to your rhetoric, but I will say
	that it helps no one, including yourself, to be so
	willfully ignorant.  You are getting close to the
	area that you have criticised others for; please
	be more careful for everyone's sake.


| The Toronto Freenet is in MORAL crisis because the people 
| who have controlled it lack experience and goals sufficiently 
| broad and universal to attract widespread support on the 
| Internet and in this metropolis of Toronto. This is a place 
| of many cultures, preferences and beliefs. Toronto Freenet 
| has been a poor, sad, insupportable ghetto of complete, 
| soulless mediocrity. Who in their right mind would give one 
| penny to such a group? Noooobody.


	What you describe in a negative fashion is partly
	the case, but it is in NO way a moral crisis -
	it is an organisational one.  If you persist in
	making this mistake, you will be attempting to
	pull the TFN down yet another wrong path.


| The solution to this moral crisis is to imbue the Toronto 
| Freenet with values that challenge and inspire us all. The 
| Toronto Freenet must champion the forefront of human rights, 
| civil liberties, freedom of expression and electronic license. 
| The Toronto Freenet must demand the best technology not the 
| worst leftovers and give our services away freely asking money 
| only from the rich, powerful and affluent who will, in turn 
| generously. The Toronto Freenet must be the leader of 
| the ethical debate, the example to follow, the defender of 
| community, individuality and truth. And then everyone will 
| throw their money, time and hearts into what should be the 
| premier Community Internet Access Provider of this city and 
| the world beyond: Toronto Freenet.                 BA 10/96


	The TFN is already imbued with such values - the work
	that is before us is to uncover them from the problems
	which have beset the organisation, dust them off, and
	continue on the paths the TFN was created to follow.
	These directions are already consistent with much of
	your beliefs - you need to give credit to the vision
	of those who started it, and to the will of the
	membership and volunteers to continue to participate
	in this communal effort.


-- 
  ,u,	 Bruce Becker		Toronto, Ontario	1 416 699 1868
a /i/	 Internet: bdb@gts.org	Uucp: ...!gts!bdb
 `\o\-e	 The concept of "trolling" was invented long before Usenet;
 _< /_	 	try not answering a ringing phone sometime.  - Malcolm Y

bob@news.vrx.net (Bob Allisat) wrote:


Q:::::> In my opinion there is no financial crisis in the Toronto 
Q:::::> Freenet. The Internet business in Metro Toronto is a hundred-
Q:::::> billion dollar game. 

	Okay Bob, show the books. Where did you get a hundred billion dollars 
from the internet business in Toronto? 

Wayne H. Allen wrote:
> 
> bob@news.vrx.net (Bob Allisat) wrote:
> 
> Q:::::> In my opinion there is no financial crisis in the Toronto
> Q:::::> Freenet. The Internet business in Metro Toronto is a hundred-
> Q:::::> billion dollar game.
> 
>         Okay Bob, show the books. Where did you get a hundred billion > dollars
> from the internet business in Toronto?

	Yeah, really! Those of us in the commercial ISP sector would like to
know as well!

	Since I've opened the reply window for this message, I'll make another
comment as well. 
	I'm not sure if it was jut Bob, or several others who started it, but
there seems to be an idea floating around that "just any old
corporation" could run the TFN out of it's pocket change. Well, I've
never seen the TFN's books, or it's equipment lists, but I would like to
see any ISP or related business start up *another* copy of itself out of
it's "spare change" (i.e. it's profits) 
	Without going into tons and tons of detail, it usually takes about a
quarter million dollars to start a viable ISP, and keep it around for a
few years. This is assuming that there will be revenues to offset the
operating and expansion costs. What I would suggest to those that feel
the TFN's financial needs are minimal to keep in mind is the fact that
the TFN is not charging for any of it's services. 
	In any good business plan, you must plan your revenues based on product
desire and the price you charge (OK, that's a REALLY simplified view,
but still a valid point). How can anyone expect the TFN to just get back
on it's feet after a few phone calls? It's going to take a lot of time,
money and effort to turn this thing around. 
	Even if we have a *perfect* board elected, I can't see the TFN
expanding significantly for at least a year. As a matter of fact, I
can't think of ANY corporation that has been at the verge of bankruptcy
suddenly bouncing back to become a "force to be reckoned with" in
anything short of a year unless they stumble across a corporate sponser
willing to inject millions (which also involves a signing away of the
corporate soul, so it's not always a good thing, eh?)
	At any rate, I would hope that not only those running for the board,
but those hoping for a better TFN realize that the next twelve months
will be long, slow and sometimes painful, but if the PR and the attitude
are right, I would expect that by this time next year, we should be
discussing the celebration of the TFN operating entirely in the black.
No more, no less. (Of course, world domination *IS* planned for year
two, but let's take things one step at a time ;-)

Marc Bissonnette
Project Manager -Web Services-
Passport Online

Hi Marc:

You sure deserved my vote. I knew you are a realist. We count on your 
positive contribution.

Sincerely,
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Nabil M. El-Khodari      It is too bad that some define "Democracy"
Info. Provider  TFN      as the freedom of the membership to elect     
Board Candidate          those they wish to "rule" them. 

Bob Allisat (bob@news.vrx.net) wrote:
:  One excellent candidate, Ms. Marianne Wroe, was forced
:  to withdraw from the process by the activities of a sole
:  candidate. This is highly regrettable. Apologies to Ms.
:  Wroe from all for letting the situation get out of control.

Jim Butterfield <fjb@torfree.net> wrote:
>I had the impression that the editor of this newsrag, one boB Allisat, 
>would defend free speech to the death, even where it involved the spewing 
>of libel, obscene material, or racial hatred.
>
>Is this a change in position?

 Did you bump your head
 Mr. Butterfield? I was
 apologising to Ms Wroe,
 who felt it necessary to
 resign due to the intensity
 of insults and madness 
 that dominated the debate
 for a time - not advocating
 any censorship. You really
 must be more careful with
 yourself Jim. Or wear a
 helmet of some sort.

 In Solidarity!

 Bob Allisat                         world@fcn.net
 Facilitator,                        (416)588-0670
 Free Community Network         http://www.fcn.net

I have been nominated as a possible Director of the Toronto Free Net,
and am proud to be part of the group assembled by Dmytri Kleiner to
run in this election.  I would appreciate your support.
 
                             * * *
 
Biographical Sketch:
 
53 years old, divorced (amicably), long term relationship with Joahna.
Two daughters, one in first year computer science at University of New
Mexico, the younger a high school student in Boulder, Colorado.
 
Education:
 
Primary, Lycee Francaise de Londres, London.  Secondary, Upper Canada
College, Toronto (on scholarships).  University of Toronto, political
science and economics, and happy-go-lucky good times, 1961-65;
commerce and accounting, 1985-87.  BA in Accounting (not a BComm,
because of all the arts courses.)  While at university the first time
was editor of The Gargoyle, 1964; Chair of the New Democratic party
Club, 1963; worked 40 hours a week as a machinist some years, wrote
free-lance radio and television a fair bit.  The second time around I
spent more time on my classes, but was also elected student rep on the
Economics FAculty Curriculum Committee, and served on the Board of the
Economics Students' Association.
 
Employment:
 
1965-66, Research staff, This Hour Has Seven Days, CBC Public Affairs
TV.  Printer, This Magazine Is About Schools.  Wrote several radio
reports on the "Quiet Revolution" in Quebec, and was one of the few to
predict the defeat of Jean Lesage.
 
1966-72, I thought that as a Canadian I ought to see what I could find
out about the States.  Travelled and worked in 33 states.  Main jobs
were, with some overlaps, Conference Coordinator, US Student Press
Association; ran conferences and seminars for student newspaper
editors, nationally, in Washington and Valparaiso, Indiana, and at the
state level all over the place.  The one in Valparaiso was a summer
national Congress; Valparaiso was chosen to make it convenient for
450+ student editors to attend the subsequent Democratic Convention...

Then, Washington office manager, "The Commons, an Institute of the
Independent Sector,"  an attempt by the major Protestant churches, the
ACLU, National Welfare Rights Association, NAACP, the Committee of
Heads of Major Jewish Organizations, etc. etc. to form a Rand-like
think tank.  (The attempt later failed.)  During this period took part
in several interesting projects, including the negotiation between the
North Slope (of Alaska) Natives Association and the oil companies,
where we helped fund the Natives' professional help; and the founding
of the Tallahatchee County Farmers cooperative in Mississippi, where I
wrote the articles of incorporation.
 
Attempted to get to Japan by driving west.  Got married, to the
excellent Susan Schmidt, helped Frank Oppenheimer in a minor way to
get The Exploratorium started. (I helped put the Mathematical
Serendipity exhibit together.)  From Japan, where I had applied for
machinist jobs in the auto plants, possible now, but unreal then, I
recieved the reply "Why you not get foundation grant?"  Went to work
for American Heritage as Assistant Editor on Horizon.  
 
From there, took a "six month assignment" writing legislation for the
House Select Subcommittee on Education, 93rd Congress.  This turned
into a two year stint on the Professional Staff of the 93rd and 94th
Congresses, until the legislation I wrote was passed, followed by a
six month consulting job with the Administration, putting it into
effect, creating the National Institute of Education, which evolved
into the present Federal Department of Education.  (In one draft of
this legislation, H.R. 5606, I suggested that ARPAnet, as it then was,
be transferred from US Air Force to National Institute funding.  This
almost, but ot quite, made it through House mark-up, which is why I
sometimes joke that I am one of the few people who has ever tried to
steal the entire I-Net.)  During this latter period I also served as a
consultant to Marvin Minsky and Seymour Papert at the Artificial
Intelligence lab of MIT, commuting weekly by plane, and helped them
re-align the lab to civilian funding sources.
 
And then, what I had intended all along after the US, off to Japan:
 
1972-85: Initially toured japan, giving seminars on information
technology at the America Centers operated regionally by the US
Department of State; studied Japanese science and technology for a
peper paid for by the National Science Foundation and distributed to
its Educational Staff Seminar.  Learned the langage fairly well.  Then
fell into business: from 1972 to 1984, first built a coin laundry for
my own use with my own money, about $22,000 invested, $20,000
borrowed.  This was the first Western-sytle coin laundryin Japan, in
Kokubunji, in the Western Tokyo suburbs, and people lined up down the
block to use it.  I then built ten more on my own hook, and then over
the next nine years built 376 more, all over the country, for other
investors.  This brought the industry into existence, which mans I can
claim that 19th-Century-sounding title "industrialist."  Whereas it
took me about ten years to build 400 stores, it took Sanyo and Sony 18
months to build 7500 in 1982-84, and with that the industry matured
out.  I wrapped things up, my shareholders did nicely and everyone was
paid.  I retired, and went back to school.
 
1985-87: Accounting student, UofT.  1988-90, Chartered accountancy
student, Thorne, Ernst & Whinney.  Served on the Board of Chartered
Accountancy Students Association of Ontario.  1991-93 (after Thorne
Ernst merged with KPMG/Peat Marwick, and the Japan unit of which I was
a member vanished) Comptroller, Enviromelt, an experimental and
developmental foundry in hamilton, attempting to pioneer a new
technology in cast iron production.  1993-95, President, Central Brake
Technology, Ltd., a failure as a manufacturer of brakes.  1986 to
present, President, David A. Lloyd-Jones & Associates, Inc., my
personal holding company, which undertakes various projects.  Main
activity at present is the speculative development of a hybrid media
CD-ROM for the 1.5 million economics students in North American
universities.  Targets are a trial distribution of 40,000 disks for
the summer semester next year, then full distribution in the fall and
winter of 1997.  My major activities right now are studying the
relevant technologies, scraping up a consulting job now and then to
pay the rent, and two unpaid jobs in Cyberspace: Treasurer of the
Toronto Free Community Network (the developing backbone organization),
and Moderator of the sci.econ.research newsgroup on Usenet.  This
latter, which I run with a certain amount of pepper and ginger, is a
functioning and professional information exchange for a few thousand
professional economists around the world.  It occupies me a couple of
hours every morning, every day for the last 13 months, and is great
fun.
 
That's enough bio.  In the next message I shall list what seem to me
my qualifications, and what I thing ought to be done if I am elected.
 
                                -dlj.