🚀 go-pugleaf

Thomas M. Cantine wrote:
> 
> In article <34D0C9EF.40CF@dbis.ns.ca>, Barbara Amero <amero@dbis.ns.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Thomas M. Cantine wrote:
> > >    I'm interested to know how you'd distinguish between a joke that makes
> > > light of rape and a joke about rape, or do you hold them to be necessarily
> > > the same thing? That is, would you want to say that a joke about rape is by
> > > definition a joke that makes light of rape?
> >
> > I said any jokes that make light of rape, make rape a joke,
> > i.e. meaning to take away the seriousness of rape, which is
> > no joke. I will clarify that now by saying that any, all jokes
> > about rape make light of rape, make rape a joke, take away the
> > seriousness of rape. Rape is no joke!
> 
>    I certainly agree that rape is no joke, but I don't think I agree with
> the general claim that any joke about rape necessarily means to downplay
> the seriousness of rape. Humour is sometimes based on a sense of outrage,
> and not always a belittling of the topic. Remember the outrageous,
> exaggerated violence in the Monty Python sketch about Sam Peckinpah's
> "Salad Days"?

I understand your views on jokes. I remember the story
about the ear and your relatives funeral, that would be
similar to the kind of joking I've been known to engage
in with others who understand... well, I have on occasion
made similar jokes to people who don't understand. I have 
used humour based on outrage without belittling the topic.
I use humour in times of stress. One e.g. would be years ago 
while I was just hanging around waiting for a wanted pregnancy
to miscarry. I made some rather outrageous jokes about the fetus, 
which would have offended some people. The humour was a way of
coping with a difficult situation. Or I use humour when I'm
frustrated, which got me into trouble for a few hours once 
when I made a joke to one of Mr.State's minions who didn't 
understand. And my expression of humour is at times not
understood by those who know me, i.e. they don't know I'm
joking. No matter what is dished my way, heaped on my plate
or whatever, I am able to laugh about it, find humour in it,
laugh at myself, etc. Humour is a good thing, but like anything
else can be a bad thing, if people use humour, only, to express
their feelings; or use it abusively, for e.g., to silence
another with humour. And women have a history of using self-
deprecating humour, which devalues them -- that's not a good
thing.

I remember the comment you made about your son and Thanksgiving,
which I played along with and asked if you were planning to stuff 
him. I'm sure most of us would agree such was humour that was not 
harmful -- but, I would not have said it in his presence. As a
child, I was exposed to a lot of damaging humour, so such is an
issue for me.

I tell and laugh at others sexist jokes on both sides of
the fence and think we (women and men) have to be able to
laugh at ourselves. But there is always some point at which
I draw the line. And I struggle with whether or not we should
do it at all. 
 
>  Of course, with rape, it's kind of different in that rape is rather more
> common than cannibalism in this society. So the idea of someone actually
> committing rape is all too believable, and thus much harder to joke about,

Perhaps for you, but it's not hard for others to joke about.
Over the years, I've been exposed to a lot of joking about rape,
that makes light of rape.

> and  we have to introduce some element of unbelievability to allow the
> humour in. Say, for example, putting my 10 month old son in a lineup as a
> rape suspect. Something ludicrous like that. Or maybe something about that
> obnoxious purple dinosaur getting gang-raped by a pack of demented
> Care-Bears.

I don't see any humour in those examples, and suggest that
such comments do make light of rape.

>  Anyway, my point is simply that the interpretation of a joke about rape
> as necessarily making light of rape is not perfectly complete. 

I'm trying to think of jokes that would not make light of rape
and can't think of any. I used to have a quote on my homepage
about rape... that even the most die-hard femininst would have
to agree that rape is something men can do better (something
like that). Would that be considered a joke that does not make
light of rape? I don't think that's a joke, but rather sarcasm
based on truth... if we give rape the meaning of occuring only
if a male's penis has penetrated a female's vagina (which is still 
the legal definition in some states). In here, I've been accused
of making light of rape by using another meaning of rape, which
is a violation. In here I have been violated to the max -- my
genitals, most of my external body parts, my mental faculty,
to the point of death, i.e. my violent murder reported in
graphic detail. I can't think of anything that could further 
violate me in here. So I don't know why the fellas don't give
up -- if none of that silenced me, got rid of me, what more
is there that they can post with words or pictures (I've
had a picture representing my genitals posted, a picture
representing my bare butt, thighs posted). When I say that
I feel as tho' I've been raped in here and gang-raped, I
mean it. Others say that they're just words or pictures on
a screen and have no effect, that is not so. A woman posted
recently that there is no physical presence in here, that
is not so.

> If we accept
> the absurdity type of humour, then it is conceivable for a naive but
> well-intentioned person (one who sincerely is unaware of the actual
> frequency of rape, for example) to joke about rape on the assumption that
> surely no one would ACTUALLY do that, would they? Such a person's
> incredulity when you answer "Yes, people DO do that all the time," is not a
> sign of evil intent, but perhaps a desire to maintain faith in the goodness
> of one's fellow humans.

With just words here, I'm not sure what you mean. How is
saying that Yes people DO do that all the time a desire
to maintain faith in the goodness of one's fellow humans?

In several threads, I've posted Charles Jones article on 
rape in which he says that most men are still not aware
that rape is a problem.

You've not provided me with any examples of jokes about
rape that do not make light of rape. Jenkins claims that
he does not joke about rape, make light of rape, yet
starts a thread called, Rape Proclivity Among Males -
FISH IS MORE RELEVANT. That makes light of rape. The
on-going put downs and jokes directed to me IRT the
conflicting rape statistics was viewed by the men as
ridiculing me, ribbing me, teasing me or whatever and
not making light of rape. I disagree. They took a
serious discussion about rape and turned it into a
big joke, a yuk yuk. Jenkins made comments about 
testosterone levels. He made many posts calling for 
a reasonable, logical interpretation of how that many 
rapes could occurr in an hour with 16 women. Well,
obviously gang-rape is a reasonable, logical
interpretation -- one that he didn't seem to think of.
Or perhaps he considers 10 men raping one woman to
be one count of rape.

To conclude, you'll have to come up with something better
to defend your position, if you want to convince me.

Barbara A. Amero