🚀 go-pugleaf

Kenneth Edward Smith (cg591@torfree.net) wrote:

Polluting the newsgroups with the trash of some TFN board members.

: One important point; it does cost $40 (US, I believe; currently about $57 
: Cdn).  TFN cannot distribute this software as our standard (or even 
: secondary) terminal package without noting that in order to be used 
: beyond a reasonable trial period, it _must_ be registered.  You have 
: counselled people to use it without registration, noting that few people 
: in your experience ever register shareware.  This is not the type of 
: attitude that I find welcome; the ideals of the community networking 
: movement and shareware are very similar, and the idea that you can ignore 
: shareware registration is incompatible at its core with those ideals.

On the contrary, I am using a licenced version to Finnish Freenet users. 
though it is only version 1.15 and not the currently available 1.2. I 
have high moral standards regarding copyrights and rights of any sort. 
You will have to prove that I have counselled people to use it without 
registration, though I acknowledged it is done. I did not 'note' any 
thing. I posed a question to you when was the last time you registered a 
shareware? Please publish that news article and let people judge for 
themselves. 

My suggestion specifically is the TFN contact I-Comm and get the same 
deal the Finnish Freenet had, almost certainly for free. This is what I 
am suggesting, may be I had to spell out for people like you.


: Actually, inadequate to allow large scale downloading, period.  This is 
: why ftp is not generally supported.  Graphics are especially large users 
: of bandwidth, however, and use of WWW browsers which grab web graphics 
: would stress our connection to the internet, our connection from the 
: terminal servers to the file/program servers, and be limited by the modem 
: speeds currently supported.

You still do not get the point. My point is we should make every effort 
to attract TFN users to local TFN content. This is the challenge that I 
know the IRC is welling to accept. There would be no 'bandwidth' 
involved, only telephone lines. However, according to the current 
attitude that TFN membership is a 'donation' specifically from board 
members and system administrators, no real effort is done to attract the 
membership to the content. All excuses..... Of course one way to make the 
TFN attractive is graphics. Attractive not only to users but to sponsors, 
but obviously neither of these are your concern. How do you expect the 
TFN to survive? Or may be again that is exactly what you are doing (sorry 
for the open-ended meaning).

: : <snip>

: I'll say this again slowly...not.torfree.net has -noooooooo- impact on 
: TFN bandwidth use.

I'll type this S  L  O  W  L  Y.  I T   D O E S ! !  Both TFN and Ryerson 
are using the same T1 connection.

: I have seen no support for this idea from members other than yourself.  
: If there ever is a larger feeling that this is necessary, we can consider 
: it.  I would note that many of the people who telnet in are in Toronto 
: anyway, and do so from accounts at their workplace during non-peak hours 
: for TFN.

Oh, what a deduction.... So members of the TFN are mostly working and 
using their office computers to connect to the TFN.... Hmmm.... On what 
DATA did you reach that magnificent conclusion?

: There is a difference between uninformed and informed opinion, even when 
: the data are anecdotal in nature.  As to the matter of "international" 
: members, in your work at the office did you ever compile data on how many 
: such members there are?  And this seems like retcon to me; you said 
: "outside Toronto," not "international."

Well, I worked at the office for exactly 2 weeks. As I was concentrating 
on grasping whatever Ed. Carrier has to teach me, not to mention also 
learning from the volunteer accountant who did the financial statement 
for the previous year (as a treasurer), there have been very little time 
for me to collect data of any significant value. May be you have...

: This proposal is unlikely to have any significant effect on bandwidth 
: use; it might help the mail spool, however.  Even easier if this was seen 
: to be necessary would be to remove the ability to forward mail, or to 
: include it as a premium service under the tiered services arrangement.  
: This would be a change to existing levels of service, and I think the 
: current board would want to get extensive membership input before doing 
: this.

Now you may be talking.

: Toronto and the GTA are not the same thing.  He said he was outside 
: Toronto.  And some people have connected by long distance to TFN, using 
: off hours to keep the charges down.

Do you believe yourself? Any charge is too much compared to say Sprint 
Canada's unlimited access for $20/month. Why should someone pay long 
distance charges to connect to the TFN? Unless of course they are also 
using their work telephone lines ;-)

: Mail is text and inherently lower volume than graphics.  While there is a 
: double hit on bandwidth due to forwarding mail, this is not a major 
: problem in our case.  The main impact of high mail volumes is on the mail 
: server and mail spool, and servicing people who are on mailing lists has 
: been the biggest impact according to our sysadmins.

Who said that those forwarding their e-mail are not subscribing to 
mailing lists? Unless there is a clear analysis of different uses of 
bandwidth by the TFN, believe me, the mail - in spite of what you said - 
is a major burden. It is what 70% of the people join the internet for.

: As to how often they send in donations; pure speculation.  If this had 
: the appearance of being a true issue with system utilization, it might be 
: worthy of follow up, but as it stands the e-mail to fax gateway 
: implemented by Nabil was a much greater load on system resources than the 
: matters discussed here; rather ironic that Nabil keeps coming up with 
: more ideas to stress the hardware beyond its limits while pointing the 
: finger at others.

Mail to fax is a service to the users. Something that the board before 
the one headed by Colin McGregor approved in spite of severe opposition 
by the system administrator. We are here to provide services to our 
users, to teach them how to make benefit of the telecommunication 
revolution. But then of course, you have much better objectives.

: The help desk will end up fielding calls for help from TFN users, and I 
: don't think the response "check the newsgroups" will be acceptable to 
: those phoning in.  Especially if the people phoning in are having a hard 
: time getting I-comm to work to reach TFN to read newsgroups...

Duh.

: And the software will not be implemented without analysis of its 
: implications for TFN system security; note that the concept of security 
: includes ensuring authenticity, privacy, availability and integrity for 
: the system and its users.  Example:  Some spammers have been forging 
: headers to indicate TFN as the source for their spam.  Measures which 
: permit us to prove to other sysadmins that these messages do not 
: originate here must be in place; this is an authenticity issue.  
: Example:  Documented holes in UNIX can allow outsiders access to TFN 
: accounts if not addressed; these holes must be patched using the now 
: known workarounds; this is a privacy, integrity and authenticity issue.  
: Example:  Mail bombs can overload the mail spool and cause us to be 
: unable as ordinary users to use e-mail; this is an availability and 
: integrity issue.  All of these are aspects of security, and apply as much 
: to TFN users as to the Bank of Montreal or CSIS (no, I don't mean 
: CSAS...).  We would have to ensure that supporting I-comm would not open 
: security holes in our system.  This will take the effort of HWSW 
: volunteers.

What a browser/terminal has to do with 'system security'? It may be the 
other way around, people who use specific types of browsers (as happened 
with one of IE versions) are liable to some security risks... However, 
this is the first time I hear the other way around.

Nevertheless, you are giving examples about mail and newsgroups, while it 
is true that you can send e-mail directly from I-Comm, yet it had to go 
through the mail server. News? it can only use the software available at 
the server to read/post to the news. 

Of course, security to you may have other 'dimensions' including system 
administrator security. As I recall a proposal by Sun Systems to do a 
security audit (free) of the TFN system was turned down. Wonder why?

: Even as modified above by Nabil to refer to "international" users, I 
: would not support this if it were placed as a motion before the board at 
: this time.  It is enough of a change to warrant membership input first, 
: but unless I see many people asking for this change I wouldn't even 
: support seeking such input at this time.

Yes. We want to be international. May be we should go to the UN for funding.

: Any addition of GUI access will require IPs to use _both_ text and HTML; 
: we have no intention of dropping text-based access for the near future 
: and any IP will be expected to serve all users in accordance with the 
: principle of universality of access.


This is where I-Comm comes in. Keep your old FreePort software as a 
tourist attraction, but make people who want graphics get it too. That 
does not only mean users, but more importantly sponsors.

: Not enough.  You propose to require all members to use I-comm if they want 
: to read the IPs' offerings; that is what the switch to using HTML for the 
: menus clearly implies.  Anyone still usig a text interface would be left 
: behind.

Duh. I-Comm is basically a T E R M I N A L. There is no change requested 
in your O/S. How did you reach that conclusion?

: : : : D- Most TFN users will not be able to use the new features.

: WRONG.  The _most needy_ users of TFN will not be able to use the new 
: features.

Duh. How is that? O.K. I do have this fancy 56K modem, what can I do if 
the maximum TFN can support is 14.4? How much is a 14.4 modem now in the 
market (of course the second hand market, it is not available as new)? 

And please do not give me the crab about Alex Terminal users. A 386 can 
be bought (when available) from GoodWeel for $35. I have bought one. It 
is an IBM PS/2 70.

: You would then _require_ people who access TFN from home to go to the 
: library.  

Thanks to you, we now know that most TFN users connect from their work...

: Those with physical limitations would find this inequitable; 
: this includes those who have various physical challenges as well as the 
: elderly.  And the cost for 386 machines is now about $50 for the system 
: unit only; your $35 find was rare (and you don't state what came with 
: that; HD, monitor, keyboard; was it working as it came home from the 
: store; where is this Goodwill store so other users can go there--the ones 
: I've seen have Commodore 64s, some functioning XTs and some 
: half-disassembled 286s, but no intact 386s yet).  There are many people, 
: it might surprise you to know, for whom running out and spending over 
: $100 for a complete, functioning system is not an option, or at least a 
: difficult one.

Listen. It is a chance encounter of course. You have to go their 
regularly looking for a 'good' system.

: : : So, either get I-Comm or go and (presumably) wait in the library to log 
: : : on to the TFN.

: : : : In the current situation the TFN is in, and with the board's decision to 
: : : : take the easy way by forwarding the bill to the users - something that I 
: : : : basically do not agree with - we might as well show that we are 
: : : : 'improving' the service for the users.

: : : I have seen no bill...

: : : In any case...if you want to respond, you'll have to mail me, since I do 
: : : not frquent this NG...

: Nabil also attributes the actions of the previous board to this one.  
: While it takes time, we are looking at other funding sources.  As 
: progress is made, we will report back to the membership.

Oh yes, like calling the contact that you sought the board nomination 
for? When will you do it???

: I consider this to be a dead issue, and don't _intend_ to follow up to 
: this or related threads (although I reserve the right to do so if it 
: appears warranted).  If other members feel this scheme should be followed 
: up on, please let us on the board know and we'll take it under 
: advisement; else this will be filed with Nabil's other unpopular and 
: ill-advised schemes as one more historical curiosity.

Yes, yes. Amen...
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-