🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <85FA331B732@annwfn.com>, merlin@annwfn.com (Fred McCall) wrote:

> In <karches-2211941137500001@dal33.onramp.net> karches@onramp.net Tom
Karches writes:
> 
> >
> >How can you prove that carry laws reduce violent crime? If the crime
> >dosen't happen, how do we know that a concealed, carried weapon prevented
> >it?
> 
> It's real simple, if you have half a brain.

Whoa..insults. I'm really impressed. As long as we're calling each other
names, do nitwits like yourself always start your discussions with an
insult?

> You look at the violent
> crime rate several years prior to the enacting of the CCW law.  You look
> at both the rate of crime and the rate at which it is changing.  Then
> you look at what happens across the time period when the CCW law went
> into effect.  You compare any changes you see to changes in areas that
> *had* shown similar rates and trends to the study area prior to the
> enacting of the law.
> 
> What you find when you do this is that there is a sharp downward change
> in both the rate of violent crime and the rate of change of that rate
> (in fact, the rate of change reverses and goes negative).  Similar areas
> showing a continuing increase.  Seems pretty obvious to anyone willing
> to look.

This does not take into effect any other changes that have taken place
during that time period. How about more police presence? These
"conclusions" are obvious only to those who like to come to conclusions
that they agree with.

> 
> Now, you may say that that isn't *proof*, and you'd be right.  But then,
> using that standard of 'proof', you can't prove *ANYTHING*.

What I said.

> >> >
> >> >> All the numbers I've ever seen on the subject show that CCW permit
> >> >> holders are *less* likely to misuse their guns than the general public.
> >> >> A CCW permit is only issued after a background check and a considerable
> >> >> amount of training.  
> >> >
> >
> >This makes sense as long as the training is truly comprehensive and not
> >just a couple of hours at the range. 
> 
> That's all that the typical police officer gets.  Why should a civilian
> who is carring a weapon strictly for personal defense be required to
> have more training than a law enforcement official whose business it is
> to be able to play the 'corner cases' of the law?

I would be surprised if 2 hours of range shooting is all the weapons
training that police officers get. I guess you have proof of this too.

> 
> >They should be bonded also, like security guards.
> 
> Horse manure!  I'll agree that that makes sense when you start requiring
> bonds of people owning long guns, automobiles, aircraft, cleansers, and
> other such dangerous things.

Why do you have to obfuscate the argument if you can't come up with a
reasoned response? Carring a deadly weapon is an immense responsibility. I
don't want people carrying guns who don't take it seriously. Bonding would
make it clear that the responsibility needs to be taken seriously. This is
no more onerous than being required to have a drivers license and
liability insurance to operate a motor vehicle. If you have a better
method, I'd like to hear it.

> 
> Why not just be honest and say that you are opposed to CCW and your goal
> is to try to make it so expensive and onerous that no one will do it
> even if they are legally allowed to?
> 

First I have half a brain, and now I'm not honest....ooh it hurts...stop....

I'm not necessaily opposed to CCW; I'm just not convinced that it reduces
crime. Violent crimes are often irrelevant decisions and I doubt that most
criminals consider this fact when they go out to commit a crime, or think
about it when they decide to commit one at the spur of the moment.

I don't want people getting carry permits because they think its cool. It
needs to be presented as a deadly serious responsibility.

Most police officials that I have heard speak on this issue are opposed to
CCW. Do you know something they don't?

Tom

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Tom Karches        **  Integral Systems ** Consulting and Training **
karches@onramp.net            ** Macintosh * Unix * PC * Internet  **
Dallas, Texas    -- RUAUU2? --    "Demystifying computers since 1990"    
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