🚀 go-pugleaf

>>>>> "a" == Adrian Burd <adrian@calanus.tamu.edu> writes:

    a> Zachery Joseph Bir wrote:
    >>  >>>>> "A" == Adrian Burd <adrian@calanus.tamu.edu> writes:
    >> 
    A> Zachery Joseph Bir wrote:
    >> 
    >> 

    [Stuff Zac posted about weapons laws in Britain]

    a> As far as I am aware, carrying a knife per se is not not illegal
    a> in England (unless that act was passed very recently). What IS
    a> illegal is carrying a knife with a blade longer than a certain
    a> length (I believe it is something like 4 or 5 inches) and, as far
    a> as I can recall carrying a "flick-knife" is also illegal. So,
    a> carrying a pocket knife is NOT illegal unless it was made so very
    a> recently.

I believe it was very recent (in the past few weeks...)

    [Zac posts anti-liberal stuff]

    >>
    A> From what I can see this is something of a mis-representation of
    A> the mainstream liberal ideology.

    [Zac posts more anti-liberal stuff]

    a> This is your view, which I believe to be wholly inaccurate and
    a> not based in fact.  It seems to a popular pass time to
    a> characterize those who have different ideas in extreme terms.

What is extreme about the billions of dollars wasted (IMHO) on welfare,
the military, the relgulation of private business practices, enforcement
of drug laws, enforcement of victimless crimes? I mean, for God's sake,
the government has its nose in every breath the American people take!
God forbit I educate myself on issues - "No, no, no, we've already done
that for you, you just be a good little citizen, pay your taxes, and
we'll take care of everything." I can decide for myself what is best for
myself, and if I don't know all the facts, I can damn sure try to find
out. 

    a> Now, if you were talking about a communist ideology, then I may
    a> well agree with you, but it seems a long way off the American
    a> liberal ideology.  One would even be hard pressed to characterize
    a> the British Labour movement in this way (though there are certain
    a> members of that movement whose ideas are close to communism, the
    a> mainstream of the Labour Party is not).

I am most assuredly not talking about communism. I am talking about
socialism, wherein the state takes it upon itself to redistribute funds
gained from the work of the citizens.

    >>
    A> Those liberals with whom I am aquainted find societies such as
    A> those depicted in "Brave New World" abhorrent; they find the
    A> opposite extreme equally so.

    >>  Which opposite? Anarchy? I agree. I'm not an anarchic
    >> advocate. I believe in government. Only, the less government, the
    >> better.

    a> See my point above and comments below.

    >>
    A> The issue appears to be one of degree; what does one consider an
    A> "essential freedom" and what freedom's is one willing to
    A> relinquish. This debate started with a complaint against speeding
    A> tickets.  Personally I find characterizing the desire to drive at
    A> whatever speed one wants as an "essential freedom" quite
    A> hilarious. As you point out below, there are far more important
    A> things to be concerned about.

    >>  Indeed, but I would be hard pressed to relinquish my claim that
    >> there are essential freedoms, outlined quite nicely in the
    >> Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. Again,
    >> though, this is way off-topic.

    a> In a way it is, in a way it is not. One thing I have found
    a> disturbing about those few debates that occur in the US is the
    a> reliance on a single debating trick; that of characterizing ones
    a> opponent in extreme terms. Perhaps books like Anthony Flew's
    a> "Thinking About Thinking" should become a standard in this
    a> country.

See above on "extremes."

    >>
    z> On a marginally related note:
    z> 
    z> I don't know what the fuss is about speeding tickets. I'd much
    z> rather see something done about the unconstitutionality of the
    z> Income Tax, before wasting time with speeding "taxes".
    >>
    A> Forgive my ignorance, but why is an income tax unconstitutional?
    A> Would you be happier if an additional amendment to the
    A> constitution included the requirement of paying income tax?

    >>  I will claim utter stupidity here, by not remembering my
    >> sources. I just checked the Consitution on the Web, and found no
    >> particularly convincing passage which holds that taxation of
    >> income is wrong, though I still agree with the Libertarians, in
    >> that we didn't have an income tax before 1914, and America was
    >> pretty prosperous...

    a> Great thinking! America wasn't involved in space exploration
    a> before 1914, maybe that is the reason. How do you determine
    a> prosperity? What objective criteria are you using to determine
    a> this? In 1914, many children died of things like smallpox and
    a> polio was common. These have now been effectively erradicated in
    a> the US through, Oh My God....government intervention .....paid
    a> for by....Oh My God....Taxes. All I am trying to show is that
    a> such a comparison as the one you made is pointless without saying
    a> what objective criteria were used and without providing a proven
    a> causative relationship between the two phenomena.

Granted. Now, ask yourself this: Is it an impossibility or even an
improbability that things like this can be done without resorting to
stealing the rewards of labor? Do you honestly have that low an opinion
of your common man that you would have to forcibly take their money from
them in order to fund projects that are beneficial to others? Perhaps I
have a misguidedly optimistic view of mankind.

As for your examples, what exactly has space exploration done for us? As
far as I can tell, not much more than a display of adolescent posturing
during the cold war. "Gotta beat those damn pinko Ruskies to the moon."

Diseases eradicated? Hell, they've gone ahead and mutated, and are now
mroe resilient to our drugs. Instead of developing natural resistences,
we've led ourselves into a dead end street relying on a medical
establishment that doesn't do jack squat.

    a> Oh, and by the way, I received an e-mail from some kind soul who
    a> suggested that the 16th amendment of the Constitution of the US
    a> could be used to argue against income taxes. I haven't looked at
    a> it yet, but thought you might like to know.

The sixteenth amendment just writes the income tax into law.

Oh, and by the way, this is the first ongoing debate I've really enjoyed
in a long while. I appreciate the time you take to respond, but as this
is getting far off topic, perhaps we should take it to e-mail or to a
more appropriate newsgroup.

-- 
		   Zachery J. Bir - zbir@indiana.edu
	      Mac Specialist - ACCESS MicroCenter IMU M086
	      work: (812) 855-0910 - home: (812) 336-3066
		  http://seven.ucs.indiana.edu/~zbir/