🚀 go-pugleaf

Taro M Inoue wrote:

> Wow, Michael, I'm shocked.  I figured that you'd be the last person in the
> world to push such a position.  You seem to advocate salaries that reflect some
> inherent value in work, rather than the dynamic amount the market is willing
> to pay.

What someone is willing to pay IS inherent value.  My point is that graduate
students are in effect being paid to do research.  That their paycheck says
the money is for teaching doesn't change this fact.  If teaching were separated
from research, we would see TAs hired who were not grad students.  Heck, $21/hr
is not a bad wage.  But the system is set up so that only graduate students
can take these positions.  Why?  Because we need to pay graduate students in
order to keep them on campus doing research.

The system is cockeyed.  We are paying people for doing one thing but expecting
them to do another.

> Here's a little reality check:  Grad students, we hope, are in a
> University because they enjoy research, and the ro^le of grad student is the
> first (or so) step in a career in academia.

That's true, and is no doubt why there are so many of us here making so
little money.  Unfortuantely, this reasoning is one of the big reasons for
Canada's brain drain.  The good students can all leave the country and get
paid well to do graduate research in the States.

Michael Kyba

In article <3119A72A.6BB1@bcu.ubc.ca>, kyba@bcu.ubc.ca wrote:

> There seems to be some confusion regarding graduate student wages.

> Any comments, grad. students out there?

I wish I was making $4.00 and hour.  The U of Manitoba is so cash strapped
these days, that many Grad Students like myself go unfunded.  I, however,
was one of the fortunate ones: I picked up a marking job for this term
that will pay, in total, about $380.

David

Michael Kyba (kyba@bcu.ubc.ca) wrote:
: There seems to be some confusion regarding graduate student wages.

: In the sciences, graduate students are essential members of any
: universty laboratory research team.  Because of this, their
: departments specify certain minimum monthly salaries that the
: grad students should receive.  Many have grants, many get paid
: off their supervisors' grants, and many do TA work for their
: department.  As a TA, although you are needed because of your
[snip]
: While it is questionable whether departments are justified in
: paying thier graduate students poverty-line salaries, it is
: unquestionable that the payment scheme should be changed.  Grad
: student salaries ought to reflect the value of the work that
: they actually do.  And their most valuable work is research.

: Any comments, grad. students out there?

: Michael Kyba

Michael, I couldn't agree with you more. Graduate students 
are an essential part of the research process. With 
respect to PhD students, I think that there are two 
problems here that can be rolled into one solution.

The first problem is the current glut of PhDs in a 
shrinking university system. This has led some in the 
research establishment to muse publicly about the need for 
"birth control for PhDs."

The second problem arises from the fact that the 
"compensation package" for the PhD student implictly 
includes the expected present value (EPV) of the PhD 
credential. But, due to the glut, the EPV of a PhD is 
getting to be a rather small number. So the PhD student's
compensation package has shrunk. Simple Free Market 
Economics.

Let's kill two birds with one stone. Trash the archaic 
concept of a "PhD degree" and a "PhD student". The Free 
Market demands it --- supply exceeds demand. But the work 
in the labs still needs doing. So, rather than doing the 
work as Phd students, the same people can be hired on as 
Advanced Research Technicians (ARTs). They can be paid 
whatever the Free Market says they're worth...well, at 
least within the constraints of the minimum wage law.

Problems solved.


Dan Walker dwalker@geology.ubc.ca

Dan Walker wrote:

> Michael, I couldn't agree with you more.

Why thank-you.

> Let's kill two birds with one stone. Trash the archaic
> concept of a "PhD degree" and a "PhD student". The Free
> Market demands it --- supply exceeds demand. But the work
> in the labs still needs doing. So, rather than doing the
> work as Phd students, the same people can be hired on as
> Advanced Research Technicians (ARTs). They can be paid
> whatever the Free Market says they're worth...well, at
> least within the constraints of the minimum wage law.

I'm not convinced.  The designation, Ph.D. is useful - it attests to
an individual's ability to do independent research.  The writing of a
thesis is useful.  I'm not even sure that oversupply is a problem.
When I said that I was earning about $4 per hour, I wasn't complaining,
after all I will have a Ph.D. at some point, rather I was pointing out
the fallacy in saying that graduate students earn $20 per hour because
TA salaries are $20 per hour.  The problem is in the way that grad students
are paid for the work that they do.  I think that if grad students are
going to be working in labs, they should get paid for such.  This would
probably send the TA wages down, but that wouldn't be a bad thing, since
they are artificially high anyway.

Michael Kyba

Michael Kyba (kyba@bcu.ubc.ca) wrote:
: Dan Walker wrote:
[snip]

[Walker]
: > Let's kill two birds with one stone. Trash the archaic
: > concept of a "PhD degree" and a "PhD student". The Free
: > Market demands it --- supply exceeds demand. But the work
: > in the labs still needs doing. So, rather than doing the
: > work as Phd students, the same people can be hired on as
: > Advanced Research Technicians (ARTs). They can be paid
: > whatever the Free Market says they're worth...well, at
: > least within the constraints of the minimum wage law.

[Kyba responds]
: I'm not convinced.  The designation, Ph.D. is useful - it attests to
: an individual's ability to do independent research.  The writing of a
: thesis is useful.  I'm not even sure that oversupply is a problem.
[snip]

[Walker responds to Kyba]
The more I think about it, the more I reckon that the ARTs
proposal has a lot of advantages.

Consider this: university research is increasingly done in
partnership with business. Inevitably, such partnerships
demand confidentiality. But the PhD student is expected to
"make an original contribution to knowledge"...to *public*
knowledge, that is. But this is in direct conflict with
the need for confidentiality. A careless presentation at a
conference can blow any chance of a patent. A published
paper can reveal proprietary information. With ARTs, there
is no danger of this. Unlike the PhD student, the ART is a
technician, collecting a wage with no need to add to
public knowledge.

Yet another problem solved.

Dan Walker dwalker@geology.ubc.ca 

In article <311AB6E2.6DBA@bcu.ubc.ca>, Michael Kyba  <kyba@bcu.ubc.ca> wrote:
>The good students can all leave the country and get
>paid well to do graduate research in the States.

Paid well? Just how much do you think we're getting paid down here? When
you factor in such things as the increased cost of living (my rent here is
about twice what it was when I was an undergrad in Waterloo), our stipends
aren't that much better than yours.

-leon.
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