🚀 go-pugleaf

Damian Glasfurd-Brown wrote:
> I note that a number of suppliers offer electronic water softeners 
> (sometimes referred to as descalers) which consist of coils of wire 
> wrapped around your water mains inlet pipe, which are supplied a current 
> by a small mains-attached box.  The principle is that the crystalline 
> structure of the "hard" components of the water is altered in such a way 
> as to prevent it aggregating.
> 
> It is claimed that these are just as effective.  They are certainly a 
> great deal cheaper to buy and run, easier to install, and would seem to 
> be a no-brainer decision.  But it seems to good to be true.

Seems to be quite a contraversial topic on the Net, as you can see from 
this literature review:

http://www.wqa.org/pdf/GovRelations/WQAMagneticsTaskForceReport.pdf

Personally, I'd be surprised if a small magnetic field like that could 
actually affect the crystalline structure of the various compounds that 
accumulate in hard water. Sounds like psuedo-science to me (and the 
crystal reference is always one to trigger alarm bells).

Jon

"Damian Glasfurd-Brown" <dljb2@spamtrap.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:dge27r$rvl$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> Hi folks
>
> My traditional salt-eating water softener (protecting a family household
> supply) has broken.  I am looking at about �500 to replace it.
>
> I note that a number of suppliers offer electronic water softeners
> (sometimes referred to as descalers) which consist of coils of wire
> wrapped around your water mains inlet pipe, which are supplied a current
> by a small mains-attached box.  The principle is that the crystalline
> structure of the "hard" components of the water is altered in such a way
> as to prevent it aggregating.
>
> It is claimed that these are just as effective.  They are certainly a
> great deal cheaper to buy and run, easier to install, and would seem to
> be a no-brainer decision.  But it seems to good to be true.

Aren't these usually sold with silver foil hats to stop aliens reading your
brainwaves.

Nick Wagg wrote:
> Aren't these usually sold with silver foil hats to stop aliens reading your
> brainwaves.

Hah! More fool you! The aliens have infiltrated our aluminium production 
and now all foil contains special crystals that allow the brain-reading 
waves through.

Jon

Nick Wagg wrote:

> Aren't these usually sold with silver foil hats to stop aliens reading your
> brainwaves.

Excellent - I have been suffering brainwave loss recently!

To be serious though, these devices are being sold into industrial and 
commercial installations, so it seems there must be some point to them.

Damian

Damian Glasfurd-Brown <dljb2@spamtrap.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Nick Wagg wrote:
>
>> Aren't these usually sold with silver foil hats to stop aliens reading your
>> brainwaves.
>
> Excellent - I have been suffering brainwave loss recently!
>
> To be serious though, these devices are being sold into industrial and 
> commercial installations,

How do you know?

> so it seems there must be some point to them.

Or that there are mugs in all markets.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it makes it worse.

Damian Glasfurd-Brown wrote:
> To be serious though, these devices are being sold into industrial and 
> commercial installations, so it seems there must be some point to them.

Thw Drinking Water Inspectorate, on their website, indicate:

"Some of these devices have been shown to be effective in reducing the 
amount of fur or scale that actually sticks to pipes or heating 
elements. They do not soften water. However, not all products on the 
market give satisfactory performance. You are advised not to buy one of 
these devices unless the supplier will agree to a sale or return, 
subject to satisfactory performance."

http://www.dwi.gov.uk/consumer/faq/hardness.htm

If you're feeling less skeptical than Nick and me, I suggest you follow 
the DWI advice and let us know how it worked for you.

Jon

"Damian Glasfurd-Brown" <dljb2@spamtrap.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:dge27r$rvl$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
 > I note that a number of suppliers offer electronic water softeners
> (sometimes referred to as descalers) which consist of coils of wire
> wrapped around your water mains inlet pipe, which are supplied a current
> by a small mains-attached box.

The U.S. Department of Energy wrote this document in 1998 (I think) and it's
been used by the US manufacturers to promote their products ever since....
http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/

HOWEVER....

In 2001 the US Army did some extensive trials and wrote this report...
http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/techinfo/CPW/PWTB/082201_PWTB%20420-49-34%20Magnetic%20Water%20Treatment1.pdf

You may need to save it to you HD before it will open. So...

QUOTE:

"The attached document provides an evaluation of current magnetic water
treatment technology. Scientific literature is reviewed and summarized and
several devices are tested for scale prevention. In summary the magnetic
water treatment devices were NOT effective for scale control."

"Although the devices were NOT effective, it is still very important that
Army public works personnel use this information to avoid unnecessary
expenditure of manpower and funds to purchase and install these devices."

CWatters <colin.watters@pandorabox.be> wrote:
> "The attached document provides an evaluation of current magnetic water
> treatment technology. Scientific literature is reviewed and summarized and
> several devices are tested for scale prevention. In summary the magnetic
> water treatment devices were NOT effective for scale control."

I can't cite, but ISTR reading somewhere that these devices were only useful
for closed systems (eg heating systems) not open ones.  But in a closed
system you can put cleaning chemicals in the water anyway, so there isn't a
great deal of advantage.

Theo

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:18:14 +0100, Damian Glasfurd-Brown  
<dljb2@spamtrap.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

> Nick Wagg wrote:
>
>> Aren't these usually sold with silver foil hats to stop aliens reading  
>> your
>> brainwaves.
>
> Excellent - I have been suffering brainwave loss recently!
>
> To be serious though, these devices are being sold into industrial and  
> commercial installations, so it seems there must be some point to them.
>
> Damian

Making money for the suppliers.

Theo Markettos wrote:
> CWatters <colin.watters@pandorabox.be> wrote:
> 
>>"The attached document provides an evaluation of current magnetic water
>>treatment technology. Scientific literature is reviewed and summarized and
>>several devices are tested for scale prevention. In summary the magnetic
>>water treatment devices were NOT effective for scale control."
> 
> 
> I can't cite, but ISTR reading somewhere that these devices were only useful
> for closed systems (eg heating systems) not open ones.  But in a closed
> system you can put cleaning chemicals in the water anyway, so there isn't a
> great deal of advantage.

That was the consensus of an extensive discussion (with experiments) 
many years ago on uk.diy, though we were testing permanent magnets. Is 
it argued that the mains-powered ones work through a different 
mechanism? I can't remember, but there might be something in the faq.

Douglas de Lacey.

Thanks for the comments.  Here's the results of my research.

1. Most people think these devices are ineffective and a scam
2. A few people argue that they are effective at preventing limescale 
formation (yes, even from experience)
3. There is a dearth of real-world testing to prove the point either 
way.  Whatever they do achieve, though, they certainly do not soften the 
water.
4. Whilst it is quite possible to get an electronic unit with a full 
money-back guarantee, I would be concerned that any damage to my 
plumbing (by way of scale build-up) would not be covered, if I ever had 
to return one of them.
5. My conclusion FWIW: these devices (if you get the right one) *may* be 
some aid to the prevention of limescale build-up, but are definitely not 
a substitute for genuine water softeners.  I will be replacing my old 
ion-exchange model with a similar unit.

Cheers
D

"Which?" carried out a test and review of electronic descalers a while
ago, together with an article about water softeners. Their conclusion,
if I remember correctly, was that they seem to work for a few people,
but not reliably. They certainly pointed out that the scientific basis
is lacking. In conclusion, they said (like the DWI) that you should only
get one with a money-back guarantee.

My father bought a cheap one a couple of years ago and told me it was
useless.

FWIW, when I was thinking about this a few years ago I decided to go
with a traditional water softener (Tapworks). It works fine but the salt
is a bit of a hassle.

> My traditional salt-eating water softener (protecting a family household
> supply) has broken.  I am looking at about �500 to replace it.
> 
> I note that a number of suppliers offer electronic water softeners
> (sometimes referred to as descalers) which consist of coils of wire
> wrapped around your water mains inlet pipe, which are supplied a current
> by a small mains-attached box.  The principle is that the crystalline
> structure of the "hard" components of the water is altered in such a way
> as to prevent it aggregating.
> 
> It is claimed that these are just as effective.  They are certainly a
> great deal cheaper to buy and run, easier to install, and would seem to
> be a no-brainer decision.  But it seems to good to be true.
> 
> Has anyone got direct experience of these devices, and advice to offer
> on whether they work as advertised?
> 
> Thanks in advance :-)
> 
> Damian

Damian Glasfurd-Brown wrote:

> Hi folks
> 
> My traditional salt-eating water softener (protecting a family household 
> supply) has broken.  I am looking at about �500 to replace it.
> 
> I note that a number of suppliers offer electronic water softeners 
> (sometimes referred to as descalers) which consist of coils of wire 
> wrapped around your water mains inlet pipe, which are supplied a current 
> by a small mains-attached box.  The principle is that the crystalline 
> structure of the "hard" components of the water is altered in such a way 
> as to prevent it aggregating.
> 
> It is claimed that these are just as effective.  They are certainly a 
> great deal cheaper to buy and run, easier to install, and would seem to 
> be a no-brainer decision.  But it seems to good to be true.
> 
> Has anyone got direct experience of these devices, and advice to offer 
> on whether they work as advertised?
> 
> Thanks in advance :-)
> 
> Damian
a descalker,even if it works, is NOT a water softener.

spend the money- it pays for itself in soap.