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On Tuesday, in article
     <NYn0UsnstoF8EwBN@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
     andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk "Andy Mabbett" wrote:

> Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to use 
> when buying one).
> 
> I have managed two years without one on my PC, so, as you can deduce, 
> won't be using it heavily when I do have one.
> 
> I will mainly be producing b&w text prints; the ability to make the 
> occasional colour print would be a bonus. Photographic quality is not 
> required, but wouldn't be refused.
> 
> It is important that the printer can handle labels and envelopes.
> 
> It must have easily available refills; not excessively over-priced.
> 
> Any suggestions, or tips?
> 
> Dixons currently have a Lexmark Z13 colour inkjet at half price, GBP 
> 24.99, on their website. It seems to compare well to printers of more 
> than twice that price, in terms of speed and dpi (the latter being 
> 1200x1200).

I have an older Lexmark, and the cartridge price is high, but they're 
big.  I don't do that much printing, but Lexmark may not be a good 
option for consumables -- you have more options than just self-refilling 
for other types.  If that Lexmark doesn't come with cartridges you can 
expect to pay as much as the printer for each of the two needed.


-- 
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

The singer who is no longer, and no shorter, than he was last week.  He's
about the same length in his stocking moolies. 

In demon.tech.pc, Andy Mabbett bashed his keyboard wildly and
produced...

>Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to use 
>when buying one).

<snip>

HP - chose the printer within your budget that uses a popular cartridge
type, purely because lexmark have a problem with 'retiring' cartridges
and ink is where they all make their money.

Canon have always been hit or miss for me, and if B&W makes up 90% of
what you print I'd consider a cheap/2nd hand laser...

robbie
-- 
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java
that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a
warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
robbie@arrakis.nu <*> http://www.arrakis.nu <*> robbie@babblings.org.uk

"Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote in message
news:NYn0UsnstoF8EwBN@pigsonthewing.org.uk...
> Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to use
> when buying one).
>
> I have managed two years without one on my PC, so, as you can deduce,
> won't be using it heavily when I do have one.
>
> I will mainly be producing b&w text prints; the ability to make the
> occasional colour print would be a bonus. Photographic quality is not
> required, but wouldn't be refused.
>
> It is important that the printer can handle labels and envelopes.
>
> It must have easily available refills; not excessively over-priced.
>
> Any suggestions, or tips?
>
> Dixons currently have a Lexmark Z13 colour inkjet at half price, GBP
> 24.99, on their website. It seems to compare well to printers of more
> than twice that price, in terms of speed and dpi (the latter being
> 1200x1200).
>
> My budget is higher than that, but I can always spend it on something
> else! How does the Lexmark perform? Is 1200x1200 capable of producing
> readable and presentable letters?
>
> I understand that the Z12 can have either black, or three-colour- ink
> loaded, but not both at the same time. Is that drawback also true of the
> Z13?
>
>
> OTOH, a colleague has recommended a Cannon S400, which has different
> refills for each colour; that appeals from both a miserly and
> environmentally- friendly PoV!
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett

I think the Cannon may be the best bet for the reason you state.....4
separate cartriges.   Most of the others use two...a black and a tricolor.
It is very possible to use up all of one color and essentially have to throw
the other two colors away.  Printer companies are like Gillette.....give the
razors away and make a fortune on the blades.

"Pete Ulrich" <pmulrich@netnitco.net> wrote in message
news:3c16d02d@news.netnitco.net...
>
> "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:NYn0UsnstoF8EwBN@pigsonthewing.org.uk...
> > Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to
use
> > when buying one).
> >
> > I have managed two years without one on my PC, so, as you can deduce,
> > won't be using it heavily when I do have one.
> >
> > I will mainly be producing b&w text prints; the ability to make the
> > occasional colour print would be a bonus. Photographic quality is not
> > required, but wouldn't be refused.
> >
> > It is important that the printer can handle labels and envelopes.
> >
> > It must have easily available refills; not excessively over-priced.
> >
> > Any suggestions, or tips?
> >
> > Dixons currently have a Lexmark Z13 colour inkjet at half price, GBP
> > 24.99, on their website. It seems to compare well to printers of more
> > than twice that price, in terms of speed and dpi (the latter being
> > 1200x1200).
> >
> > My budget is higher than that, but I can always spend it on something
> > else! How does the Lexmark perform? Is 1200x1200 capable of producing
> > readable and presentable letters?
> >
> > I understand that the Z12 can have either black, or three-colour- ink
> > loaded, but not both at the same time. Is that drawback also true of
the
> > Z13?
> >
> >
> > OTOH, a colleague has recommended a Cannon S400, which has different
> > refills for each colour; that appeals from both a miserly and
> > environmentally- friendly PoV!
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
>
> I think the Cannon may be the best bet for the reason you state.....4
> separate cartriges.   Most of the others use two...a black and a
tricolor.
> It is very possible to use up all of one color and essentially have to
throw
> the other two colors away.  Printer companies are like Gillette.....give
the
> razors away and make a fortune on the blades.
I'd avoid the Canon, till you have tried it.
It is an excellent printer, _but_ there is something very 'odd' about the
driver. If you take a photographic image, it is important to understand
that for 'top quality' magazine printing, scanning at only about 150DPI is
adequate, and 300DPI excellent. Now printers have much higher DPI figures,
which are useful for text (where it allows sharply defined edges to be
produced), and are used in the photographic prints, by having a 'group' of
several of the dots, combined to generate the large number of different
intensity levels needed for a good picture. So (say) 1200DPI (printer), in
photographic use, only equates to about 200DPI (photographic). Now most
printer drivers understand this, and give really good photographic results
when fed with an image at this sort of resolution. So I can print an
excellent A4 page, from an image that is perhaps 2800*2000 pixels (about
16MB), as a 'minimum', on a Epson photo proofing machine (the StylusPro
7000, or any of their cheaper 'photo' printers). With the Canon, something
is different about the driver. Fed with the same sort of image, the
results are poor. However the results improve massively, if the image is
raised in resolution to perhaps 1000DPI. The only problem with this, is
that a true-colour A4 image, is then over 250MB!. It appears that the
Epson, and HP drivers are both capable of correctly extrapolating the
image to their dot resolution, and using this to develop the patterns
needed, but the Canon has a fault in this area. Obviously having to work
with images this large is a pain...
Personally, if the target is 'photographic', combined with ordinary text
printing, depending on the actual 'quantities' involved, I would consider
some slightly 'unusual' solutions. For example the Olympus Dye Sublimation
printer, produces photographic output, that is unmatched, at a speed that
is great (A4 in about 90 seconds). Combine this with one of the smallest
laser printers for text work, and the running costs for everyday mono
printing, are vastly less than the cheapest inkjet can manage.
HP for my 'money', tend to give slightly oversaturated colours, making
them very good for 'presentation' work, but slighty more difficult to
adjust to give really good 'photo' prints. Epson generally have the best
photographic output from the cheaper printers.

Best Wishes

Andy Mabbett writes
>Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to use when 
>buying one).

I have tried a variety of printers over the years, there are five here.

I may still have two epson stylus about which you can have for free,
they were never very satisfactory, very slow, frequently blocked up and
despite claims needed frequent expensive replacement cartridges.
Basically a pain in the butt.

I ended up changing them all to HP. The colours are good, but not truly
photographic (mind you I only use 3 colour+bk). The black ink (but not
the colours) is waterproof. The cartridges can be refilled using cheap
replacement ink (which isn't waterproof) providing you immediately
refill and put the cartridge to use (that is don't have two and refill
one as the spare). I use 'economode' almost exclusively which is
indistinguishable from 'normal' to all intents and purposes except when
in colour, and which prints very fast as it uses the full (about 12mm)
height of the nozzle assembly for each pass.

Our very much older HP's still function elsewhere without problem.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth precisely what you paid for it.

>Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to use 
>when buying one).
<snip>
>Dixons currently have a Lexmark Z13 colour inkjet at half price, GBP 
>24.99, on their website. It seems to compare well to printers of more 
>than twice that price, in terms of speed and dpi (the latter being 
>1200x1200).

Keep in mind that the list price for the colour cartridges for this
printer is �22-ish, so (assuming the printer comes with both colour
and mono cartridges) it's cheaper to bin the printer when you run out
of ink!


-- 
QrizB

I sound like I know what I'm talking about, but don't
be fooled.

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:55:52 +0000, Robbie <robbie@arrakis.nu> wrote:

>In demon.tech.pc, Andy Mabbett bashed his keyboard wildly and
>produced...
>
>>Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to use 
>>when buying one).
>
><snip>
>
>HP - chose the printer within your budget that uses a popular cartridge
>type, purely because lexmark have a problem with 'retiring' cartridges
>and ink is where they all make their money.
>
>Canon have always been hit or miss for me, and if B&W makes up 90% of
>what you print I'd consider a cheap/2nd hand laser...

I recently bought a 2nd-hand Laserjet only to discover that a single
toner cartridge costs almost exactly what I paid for the printer.
(From one supplier). I've recently found an alternative, cheaper
source of compatible cartridges.

Aren't all Canons bubblejets? I found that the ink in a bubblejet
is not water-proof.

J+

In article <NYn0UsnstoF8EwBN@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett 
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes
>
>Dixons currently have a Lexmark Z13 colour inkjet at half price, GBP 
>24.99, on their website. It seems to compare well to printers of more 
>than twice that price, in terms of speed and dpi (the latter being 
>1200x1200).
>
>
My daughter has a Z13, worked straight out of the box and we
were impressed with the results.
It's USB only, and takes a single cartridge at any time - either colour,

or black, but not together.
Strange that Dixons retail the colour cartridge for GBP 34.99 when
the whole printer and colour cartridge come for a lot less.
Hope this helps
-- 
Tony Millington

In article <SuCZCZAhe0F8EwgE@upthorpe.demon.co.uk>, Oz
<Oz@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> writes
>I ended up changing them all to HP. The colours are good, but not truly
>photographic (mind you I only use 3 colour+bk). The black ink (but not
>the colours) is waterproof. The cartridges can be refilled using cheap
>replacement ink (which isn't waterproof) providing you immediately
>refill and put the cartridge to use (that is don't have two and refill
>one as the spare). I use 'economode' almost exclusively which is
>indistinguishable from 'normal' to all intents and purposes except when
>in colour, and which prints very fast as it uses the full (about 12mm)
>height of the nozzle assembly for each pass.
>
>Our very much older HP's still function elsewhere without problem.
>
I've got a variety of elderly HP ink jets which I refill myself. Cheap
and cheeful! Proper printing is done on a HP4si duplex laser (which *is*
waterproof!) Does everybody read their printed output in the bath? <g>
Toner cartridges are cheap when you can get them.

I've a HP photosmart (old model) printer for photographic stuff which I
use very rarely. As others have said you need to go into the costs of
replacement cartridges as it's really that that is the determining
factor if you're using it as the only printer. The two cartridges for
this cost almost twice as much as a full toner for the 4SI!

What's not been mentioned so far is the light fastness of the prints you
get from photo priners if you're really going to be printing
'photographs', *and* there's the cost of the expensive paper. Lasers are
happy with �2 (max) a ream stuff!

>I recently bought a 2nd-hand Laserjet only to discover that a single
>toner cartridge costs almost exactly what I paid for the printer.
>(From one supplier). I've recently found an alternative, cheaper
>source of compatible cartridges.

I have been quoted �250 for a toner cartridge for a HP1100 by one
supplier, and they refused to accept that it was overpriced.  It
wasn't even an original HP cartridge!  Add to that the fact that you
can almost buy 2 HP1100 *printers* for �250 (each with toner).

I'm now getting toner at �30 a pop from somewhere else.

On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:40:44 +0000, Andy Mabbett
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

>Father Christmas is going to bring me a printer (or, rather, cash to use 
>when buying one).

>
>Any suggestions, or tips?
>

I recently (last month) bought a Zerox all - in - one workstation
(copier, scanner, printer, fax) for £199 from PC World  to replace the
copier in our small office. Previous copier cartridges used to last
about 15 months. We already had a LJ1100 running fine so the new Xerox
was only used for copying in the first instance. Our proper office
copier had died, and we had been using a scanner on the PC to do
copies, this was O.K. but quite slow.

The first black cartridge that came with the machine lasted just 
*3 weeks* and the replacement cost £39.95! for less than an egg cup
full of black ink. I just wonder whether the new printer was
deliberately supplied with cartridges with a low ink content so that
the real cost of the workstation is £199.+ £80 (Or maybe more) for a
pair of proper cartridges.

If the current cartridge doesn't have a reasonable life taking into
account how expensive they are I won't be giving any more money to
Xerox I'll just get rid of it.

Uri

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:06:06 +0000, John Chapple <jc@ch-w.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <SuCZCZAhe0F8EwgE@upthorpe.demon.co.uk>, Oz
><Oz@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> writes
>>I ended up changing them all to HP. The colours are good, but not truly
>>photographic (mind you I only use 3 colour+bk). The black ink (but not
>>the colours) is waterproof. The cartridges can be refilled using cheap
>>replacement ink (which isn't waterproof) providing you immediately
>>refill and put the cartridge to use (that is don't have two and refill
>>one as the spare). I use 'economode' almost exclusively which is
>>indistinguishable from 'normal' to all intents and purposes except when
>>in colour, and which prints very fast as it uses the full (about 12mm)
>>height of the nozzle assembly for each pass.
>>
>>Our very much older HP's still function elsewhere without problem.
>>
>I've got a variety of elderly HP ink jets which I refill myself. Cheap
>and cheeful! Proper printing is done on a HP4si duplex laser (which *is*
>waterproof!) Does everybody read their printed output in the bath? <g>

Only some of us. Letters with labels sometimes get wet though!

J+

In article <NYn0UsnstoF8EwBN@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, 
andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk says...
> Dixons currently have a Lexmark Z13 colour inkjet at half price, GBP 
> 24.99, on their website. It seems to compare well to printers of more 
> than twice that price, in terms of speed and dpi (the latter being 
> 1200x1200).
> 
The reason they're cheap is because refills are nearly the most 
expensive to the point that its cheaper to buy a new printer when the 
old cartridges run out at that price..

-- 
_________________________
Conor Turton
conor_turton@hotmail.com
ICQ:31909763
_________________________