🚀 go-pugleaf

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I understand the need for registering with someone who has a VOIP -> 
> PSTN gateway.  In order to talk to normal phones.

Yup, unless you want to talk to another VOIP user directly. (handy for 
office to office style comms - miss out the POTS bit altogether).

> I understand the need to translate from VOIP to 'audio' and the like.

Yup, either done by a VOIP phone or a gateway device usually.

> But I cant for the life of me understand how the gateway boxes work..

Ok, first thing to get clear is the type of analogue ports your gateway 
has. They come in two flavours FXS, and FXO. One (FXO) is designed to 
look like a phone, and the other (FXS) to look like a phone line. The 
former is handy for hooking one office to another, since you can connect 
it to an extension line on a PABX, and then treat it like an internal 
phone - however when you call it in reality its redirected over the 
internet to a remote location.

If you have an analogue PABX already, and it has a spare trunk like, 
then you can connect this to a FXS port, and it will then behave just 
like another line.

> Let's say I have one behind a NAT router.
> 
> Some manuals say 'configure incoming UDP pass through on ports XXXX' and 
> it will work
> 
> But the SAME manual says 'don't bother, use DHCP and it will sort itself 
> out'

DHCP is unlikely to sort it out, but UPnP might.

> And in the SAME manual it seems to imply that the box itself is a NAT 
> router and DSL modem? yet another part says it needs to be connected TO 
> one?

Usually they need to connect to a router (NAT optional)

> The VoIP gateway of choice is SIPGATE, as they seem to have the right 
> tariff structure and be open.

Fairysnuff

> Can someone tell me the bleeding obvious, of what box to get and how it 
> works?

What have you got so far? Analogue PBX with spare trunk line? Do you 
want to use POTS phones (or whatever your PABX currently uses), or do 
you want VoIP phones?

> Set-up is bog standard mainly wired LAN on static public IP address and 
> NATTED to the hilt with a web server publicly visible via NAT pass-through.

Web server ought not make any difference. Static IP may help.


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

In article <h84emt$aqd$1@news.albasani.net>,
The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Trying to rationalise my systems here which will involve much messing 
>around with ISPs, BT and the like and would like to use a second phone 
>using VOIP..connected to my nice PABX.
>
>Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the 
>PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, but I am terribly confused.

If your PABX takes analogue lines - ie. designed to be plugged into
a standard BT wall socket, then what you need is an ATA - Analogue
Terminal Adapter. Ethernet one side and a phone socket the other.

>I understand the need for registering with someone who has a VOIP -> 
>PSTN gateway.  In order to talk to normal phones.

Yes, and the need to pay for it!

>I understand the need to translate from VOIP to 'audio' and the like.

What the ATA does, although you can get dedicated VoIP phones.

>But I cant for the life of me understand how the gateway boxes work..

The ATA itself uses SIP to talk to the ITSP (Internet Telephony Service
Provider) on one side, and presents a normal analogue phone interface
on the other.

>Let's say I have one behind a NAT router.
>
>Some manuals say 'configure incoming UDP pass through on ports XXXX' and 
>it will work
>
>But the SAME manual says 'don't bother, use DHCP and it will sort itself 
>out'
>
>And in the SAME manual it seems to imply that the box itself is a NAT 
>router and DSL modem? yet another part says it needs to be connected TO one?

OK - Stop there!

Some ATAs (or gateway devices) do have router functions built in. Some
because that's the way it is in a minority country where Internet was
traditionally supplied via "cable" and not ADSL, and some by design.

If buying an ATA, then if it has 2 Ethernet ports, then make sure you
just use one of them (usually the one marked "wan") and turn off all
routing functions it may have itself. then it just becomes one more
device on your LAN.

>The VoIP gateway of choice is SIPGATE, as they seem to have the right 
>tariff structure and be open.
>
>Can someone tell me the bleeding obvious, of what box to get and how it 
>works?
>
>Set-up is bog standard mainly wired LAN on static public IP address and 
>NATTED to the hilt with a web server publicly visible via NAT pass-through.

What kind of router do you have? And What ISP?

Some routers block or otherwise corrupt VoIP - ironically in an attempt to
"help" VoIP. Most are broken by design though. This is the first obstacle,
so check the router model.

Do not use any port forwarding for a simple ATA or VoIP phone.

It may be easy to use Sipgate and just buy an ATA off them pre-programmed,
or follow their advice... Or if looking for a "bare" ATA, then this:

  http://www.voipon.co.uk/linksys-pap2t-analog-telephone-adapter-p-145.html

and the rest of that site is a good place to start. (And Sipgate sell
them too - not sure if they come programmed though)

  http://www.sipgate.co.uk/voipshop/linksys/pap2t

Sipgate is good in that you'll get a free new phone number for incoming
calls and you PAYG for outgoung calls.

What will give you a "bad" VoIP experience is your Internet
connection. Uploading data at the same time as making a call is probably
the worst case. Some routers can help here, but may not be worth the
expense for a home user.

Some routers have ATAs built-in. (Or as I mentioned above, some ATAs have
routers built in!) If you want to buy a new router/ata, then look for
one with an ADSL adapter built in - Draytek and AMV have suitable models.

At the end of the day, it shouldn't be hard - treat the ATA as another
LAN device, let it use DHCP to get it's own IP address, connect an
analogue phone to it, and dial a magic code (RTFM :) and it will speak
it's IP address to you, connect up a PC with a web browser, point it
at the device and enter the details from the ITSP - usually a username,
password and server IP address.

One additional thing you may need is a STUN server - the ITSP you use will
advise - I don't think sipgate needs one anymore, but they run their own,
so just put the name of their STUN server in the appropriate place in
the ATA. (STUN lets the ATA work it's way round NAT firewalls without
you doing anything special in the firewall)

Finally, you may need an adapter cable for the ATA - check the box
contents! They usually come with an RJ11 connector - check the cable you
need for your PABX and make sure they match up, but I'd suggest using a
bog-standard analogue phone to make sure it's working before connecting
to the PABX.


Good luck!

Gordon

I re-installed the firmware on my N95 (mobile phone) to re-enable the
(network-operator removed) SIP related functionality.  Then I setup an
account with sipgate and access their server via WiFi (which the handset
supports). In theory I can use SIP over HSDPA though my network-operator
blocks this (presumably to protect their revenue) so I have to employ
some tricks to get around this.  So, if you have any problems using
sipgate itself, post back here - though it seems Gordon has answered
your questions for now :)

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <h84emt$aqd$1@news.albasani.net>,
> The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Trying to rationalise my systems here which will involve much messing 
>> around with ISPs, BT and the like and would like to use a second phone 
>> using VOIP..connected to my nice PABX.
>>
>> Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the 
>> PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, but I am terribly confused.
> 
> If your PABX takes analogue lines - ie. designed to be plugged into
> a standard BT wall socket, then what you need is an ATA - Analogue
> Terminal Adapter. Ethernet one side and a phone socket the other.

Yep. Panasonic hybrid. 3 into 8 plus doorphones.
> 
>> I understand the need for registering with someone who has a VOIP -> 
>> PSTN gateway.  In order to talk to normal phones.
> 
> Yes, and the need to pay for it!
> 
But a bit less than BT!


>> I understand the need to translate from VOIP to 'audio' and the like.
> 
> What the ATA does, although you can get dedicated VoIP phones.
> 
>> But I cant for the life of me understand how the gateway boxes work..
> 
> The ATA itself uses SIP to talk to the ITSP (Internet Telephony Service
> Provider) on one side, and presents a normal analogue phone interface
> on the other.
> 
>> Let's say I have one behind a NAT router.
>>
>> Some manuals say 'configure incoming UDP pass through on ports XXXX' and 
>> it will work
>>
>> But the SAME manual says 'don't bother, use DHCP and it will sort itself 
>> out'
>>
>> And in the SAME manual it seems to imply that the box itself is a NAT 
>> router and DSL modem? yet another part says it needs to be connected TO one?
> 
> OK - Stop there!
> 
> Some ATAs (or gateway devices) do have router functions built in. Some
> because that's the way it is in a minority country where Internet was
> traditionally supplied via "cable" and not ADSL, and some by design.
> 
> If buying an ATA, then if it has 2 Ethernet ports, then make sure you
> just use one of them (usually the one marked "wan") and turn off all
> routing functions it may have itself. then it just becomes one more
> device on your LAN.
> 
OK.

>> The VoIP gateway of choice is SIPGATE, as they seem to have the right 
>> tariff structure and be open.
>>
>> Can someone tell me the bleeding obvious, of what box to get and how it 
>> works?
>>
>> Set-up is bog standard mainly wired LAN on static public IP address and 
>> NATTED to the hilt with a web server publicly visible via NAT pass-through.
> 
> What kind of router do you have? And What ISP?

Both subject to change if needs be. I will be moving to IDnet probably 
as part of this whole upgrade.

I've got a couple of D-links and two Belkins lying around..but I am not 
averse to getting something all in one, if only to save power cables..I 
wouldn'y mind a router with pass through and two extra POTS outputs to 
fully drive the PABX. AS much for number diversity as anything else.

> 
> Some routers block or otherwise corrupt VoIP - ironically in an attempt to
> "help" VoIP. Most are broken by design though. This is the first obstacle,
> so check the router model.
> 
OK.. The one I am using has voip QOS boost possible.

> Do not use any port forwarding for a simple ATA or VoIP phone.
> 
That's the bit I don't get. How does the router know where to send 
incoming calls as it were..?

> It may be easy to use Sipgate and just buy an ATA off them pre-programmed,
> or follow their advice... Or if looking for a "bare" ATA, then this:
> 
>   http://www.voipon.co.uk/linksys-pap2t-analog-telephone-adapter-p-145.html
> 

I had a look at that and got confused halfway through reading the manual..

> and the rest of that site is a good place to start. (And Sipgate sell
> them too - not sure if they come programmed though)
> 
>   http://www.sipgate.co.uk/voipshop/linksys/pap2t
> 
> Sipgate is good in that you'll get a free new phone number for incoming
> calls and you PAYG for outgoung calls.
> 
TBH this is for outbound calls mainly.


> What will give you a "bad" VoIP experience is your Internet
> connection. Uploading data at the same time as making a call is probably
> the worst case. Some routers can help here, but may not be worth the
> expense for a home user.
> 
since 99% of calls are made and taken in the home office, its easy 
enough to tell the wife to e.g. stop watching porn films online if the 
call goes bad..But thats mainly downloads. Uploads will be when we send 
emails (whacks the link if they are big) or when someone hits the server 
to grab a web page.



> Some routers have ATAs built-in. (Or as I mentioned above, some ATAs have
> routers built in!) If you want to buy a new router/ata, then look for
> one with an ADSL adapter built in - Draytek and AMV have suitable models.
> 
> At the end of the day, it shouldn't be hard - treat the ATA as another
> LAN device, let it use DHCP to get it's own IP address, connect an
> analogue phone to it, and dial a magic code (RTFM :) and it will speak
> it's IP address to you, connect up a PC with a web browser, point it
> at the device and enter the details from the ITSP - usually a username,
> password and server IP address.
> 

That's what I expected, but how do incoming calls get handled? how does 
the router 'know' where SIP packets should go? In fact since VOIP is 
UDP, there is no concept of a 'connected' service..is it like DNS, 
something the router 'understands' and maintains state tables for?


> One additional thing you may need is a STUN server - the ITSP you use will
> advise - I don't think sipgate needs one anymore, but they run their own,
> so just put the name of their STUN server in the appropriate place in
> the ATA. (STUN lets the ATA work it's way round NAT firewalls without
> you doing anything special in the firewall)

Some sort of proxy? Tell me more.

> 
> Finally, you may need an adapter cable for the ATA - check the box
> contents! They usually come with an RJ11 connector - check the cable you
> need for your PABX and make sure they match up, but I'd suggest using a
> bog-standard analogue phone to make sure it's working before connecting
> to the PABX.
> 
Bugger,. I took the RJ11 off the PABX and used BT style shit on then 
stuff. Still its RJ11 internally so ultimately old modem leads might 
work. Anyway that's sortable. Would definitely use a POTS to get going.
> 
> Good luck!
> 

Well early days yet. I am trying to move from two BT phones and an 
expensive ISP (claranet) to a single line  with a PAYG phone/DSL bundle 
with IDNET and use VOIP as an alternative second line, and to make 
slightly cheaper calls.



Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot 
including two FSX sockets  and gives me two more features I really miss 
on the one I have now.

Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server 
syslogd.

My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link 
now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog


> Gordon

In article <h856ag$b7k$1@news.albasani.net>,
The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <h84emt$aqd$1@news.albasani.net>,
>> The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Do not use any port forwarding for a simple ATA or VoIP phone.
>> 
>That's the bit I don't get. How does the router know where to send 
>incoming calls as it were..?

Your router should "remember" the path back to the ATA, once the
ATA makes an outbound connection - so your ATA has to regsiter to the
external ITSP first before it can take incoming calls. Once registered,
it (the ATA)  will send little "keepalive" packets, and/or periodically
re-register to keep the command-channel open.


>> At the end of the day, it shouldn't be hard - treat the ATA as another
>> LAN device, let it use DHCP to get it's own IP address, connect an
>> analogue phone to it, and dial a magic code (RTFM :) and it will speak
>> it's IP address to you, connect up a PC with a web browser, point it
>> at the device and enter the details from the ITSP - usually a username,
>> password and server IP address.
>> 
>
>That's what I expected, but how do incoming calls get handled? how does 
>the router 'know' where SIP packets should go? In fact since VOIP is 
>UDP, there is no concept of a 'connected' service..is it like DNS, 
>something the router 'understands' and maintains state tables for?

The router should still "remember" state once the ATA has made contact
with the ITSP. Also note that the actual voice data isn't carried over
the SIP ports, but other ports, but they're negotiated at call setup time.

>> One additional thing you may need is a STUN server - the ITSP you use will
>> advise - I don't think sipgate needs one anymore, but they run their own,
>> so just put the name of their STUN server in the appropriate place in
>> the ATA. (STUN lets the ATA work it's way round NAT firewalls without
>> you doing anything special in the firewall)
>
>Some sort of proxy? Tell me more.

How long have you got ... A STUN server just lets a device on the inside
"know" about how it's local NAT gateway works and what sort of port
mapping to expect. It can then use that knowledge when regsitering with
the remote ITSP and making calls.

>> Finally, you may need an adapter cable for the ATA - check the box
>> contents! They usually come with an RJ11 connector - check the cable you
>> need for your PABX and make sure they match up, but I'd suggest using a
>> bog-standard analogue phone to make sure it's working before connecting
>> to the PABX.
>> 
>Bugger,. I took the RJ11 off the PABX and used BT style shit on then 
>stuff. Still its RJ11 internally so ultimately old modem leads might 
>work. Anyway that's sortable. Would definitely use a POTS to get going.
>> 
>> Good luck!
>> 
>
>Well early days yet. I am trying to move from two BT phones and an 
>expensive ISP (claranet) to a single line  with a PAYG phone/DSL bundle 
>with IDNET and use VOIP as an alternative second line, and to make 
>slightly cheaper calls.

Make sure the ITSP can import standard BT numbers... And when porting
in a number, all services on that line will cease (eg. ADSL)

>Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot 
>including two FSX sockets  and gives me two more features I really miss 
>on the one I have now.
>
>Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server 
>syslogd.
>
>My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link 
>now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog

I use Draytek Vigor routers, some use AVM Fritz! boxes.  The Drayteks
don't have monitoring as such, but do support remote SNMP monitoring
(of the Internet bandwidth) and all the "usual" port forwarding to
connect external things to local web, email, etc. servers.

Gordon
-- 
http://www.drogon.net/

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> since 99% of calls are made and taken in the home office, its easy 
> enough to tell the wife to e.g. stop watching porn films online if the 
> call goes bad..

Porn films... such as 'Wallender'? how dare you sir!!!

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <h856ag$b7k$1@news.albasani.net>,
> The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>> In article <h84emt$aqd$1@news.albasani.net>,
>>> The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot 
>> including two FSX sockets  and gives me two more features I really miss 
>> on the one I have now.
>>
>> Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server 
>> syslogd.
>>
>> My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link 
>> now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog
> 
> I use Draytek Vigor routers, some use AVM Fritz! boxes.  The Drayteks
> don't have monitoring as such, but do support remote SNMP monitoring
> (of the Internet bandwidth) and all the "usual" port forwarding to
> connect external things to local web, email, etc. servers.
> 
> Gordon
I saw something called a billion ..that seems to meet the specs as well.

Are not Drayteks confined to the Draytel ITSP?

magwitch wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> since 99% of calls are made and taken in the home office, its easy 
>> enough to tell the wife to e.g. stop watching porn films online if the 
>> call goes bad..
> 
> Porn films... such as 'Wallender'? how dare you sir!!!

Its Swedish, so it must be porn! :-)

In article <h85ncq$5ma$1@news.albasani.net>,
The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <h856ag$b7k$1@news.albasani.net>,
>> The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>>> In article <h84emt$aqd$1@news.albasani.net>,
>>>> The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot 
>>> including two FSX sockets  and gives me two more features I really miss 
>>> on the one I have now.
>>>
>>> Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server 
>>> syslogd.
>>>
>>> My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link 
>>> now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog
>> 
>> I use Draytek Vigor routers, some use AVM Fritz! boxes.  The Drayteks
>> don't have monitoring as such, but do support remote SNMP monitoring
>> (of the Internet bandwidth) and all the "usual" port forwarding to
>> connect external things to local web, email, etc. servers.
>> 
>> Gordon
>I saw something called a billion ..that seems to meet the specs as well.
>
>Are not Drayteks confined to the Draytel ITSP?

No - they're just bog-standard SIP devices that can connect to any ITSP.

Gordon

In message <h856ag$b7k$1@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher 
<tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>>  What kind of router do you have? And What ISP?
>
>Both subject to change if needs be. I will be moving to IDnet probably 
>as part of this whole upgrade.
>
>I've got a couple of D-links and two Belkins lying around..but I am not 
>averse to getting something all in one, if only to save power cables..I 
>wouldn'y mind a router with pass through and two extra POTS outputs to 
>fully drive the PABX. AS much for number diversity as anything else.

As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting a 
refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave off 
E-bay  (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his starting 
bids have gone up a bit from the �2.99+P&P I paid and the �0.99p + P&P 
he was asking for the wireless version)

These come with ADSL, 2 ports for analogue phones, one port for the POTS 
phone line so that you can still make calls with the power off (or 
divert to POTS) one ADSL port, a router, firewall and a four port 
Ethernet switch.

If you replace your existing ADSL router with it should do what you want 
fairly easily.

I have mine configured as a simple ATA behind my existing router, (that 
is a bit more of a fiddle to set up) and it works just fine.
-- 
Invalid

Invalid <news@wisty.plus.com.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

> As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting a
> refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave off
> E-bay  (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his starting
> bids have gone up a bit from the £2.99+P&P I paid and the £0.99p + P&P
> he was asking for the wireless version)

Sorry, but £2.99 for a Thomson Speedtouch is a ripoff. They're truly 
dreadful. There's a reason why they're given away by ISPs.

In article <h84emt$aqd$1@news.albasani.net>,
 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> The VoIP gateway of choice is SIPGATE, as they seem to have the right 
> tariff structure and be open.

For what it is worth sipgate has a handy set of visual instruction pages 
for a range of devices (even if they don't have your exact device, it 
will probably in the same family as something listed) at 
<https://secure.sipgate.co.uk/user/devicelist.php>. Once you have logged 
in to your sipgate account it will show the relevant boxes complete with 
your details to make it easy to home in on the exact settings.

Adrian wrote:
> Invalid <news@wisty.plus.com.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying:
> 
>> As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting a
>> refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave off
>> E-bay  (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his starting
>> bids have gone up a bit from the £2.99+P&P I paid and the £0.99p + P&P
>> he was asking for the wireless version)
> 
> Sorry, but £2.99 for a Thomson Speedtouch is a ripoff. They're truly 
> dreadful. There's a reason why they're given away by ISPs.
So what about a Billion.?

Or is that too much for a speedtouch , too;-)

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

>>> As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting
>>> a refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave
>>> off E-bay  (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his
>>> starting bids have gone up a bit from the £2.99+P&P I paid and the
>>> £0.99p + P&P he was asking for the wireless version)

>> Sorry, but £2.99 for a Thomson Speedtouch is a ripoff. They're truly
>> dreadful. There's a reason why they're given away by ISPs.

> So what about a Billion.?

Can't say I've ever had anything to do with them. It may be merely 
prejudice, and they may be half-decent. Or, more likely, they're yet more 
cheap shonky Chinese off-brand tat. EVERY time I've gone away from the 
mainstream "quality" brands - Netgear, Linksys mainly, or if you want 
long-term reliability and aren't worried about price, then Draytek - I've 
regretted it, and the bin's been fed again sooner rather than later. Even 
Netgear and Linksys are effectively disposable. If I get a year out of a 
router without it starting to need restarting regularly, I'm doing well.

I'm starting to overcome a deep-rooted prejudice against Belkin, though - 
I've got one of their flash N1 Vision routers at home (cable, rather than 
ADSL), and it's - *reliable*...

The one exception to that is a D-Link (again, cable) that's been lent to 
some neighbours for ages, since it's only 11mbps wireless. It must be 
approaching seven or eight years old. The Router That Wouldn't Die.

> Or is that too much for a speedtouch , too;-)

Ba-doom tish.
Eye thang ewe.

"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:h856ag$b7k$1@news.albasani.net...

> Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot 
> including two FSX sockets  and gives me two more features I really miss on 
> the one I have now.

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/Search/SearchResults.asp?qsearch=voip+wireless+routers&g2=359

Much more sensible than mucking about with ATAs and stuff.

 

In message <7gnm1hF2qdtoeU5@mid.individual.net>, Adrian 
<toomany2cvs@gmail.com> writes
>Invalid <news@wisty.plus.com.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding much like
>they were saying:
>
>> As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting a
>> refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave off
>> E-bay  (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his starting
>> bids have gone up a bit from the �2.99+P&P I paid and the �0.99p + P&P
>> he was asking for the wireless version)
>
>Sorry, but �2.99 for a Thomson Speedtouch is a ripoff. They're truly
>dreadful. There's a reason why they're given away by ISPs.


OK, suggest a cheaper way  for the OP  to experiment with VOIP ATA's  on 
the back end of a  small PABx.  I did call it a "cheap & cheerful 
experiment" and the OP is clearly technically savvy (who else has a PABX 
+ Broadband and has thought about VOIP) but has limited knowledge of 
VOIP technologies.

The idea of a headset and microphone plugged into a PC doesn't  quite 
cut it, and a couple of hundred  pounds for quasi production grade kit 
is a lot of experiment.

  If my �8 ATA dies after six months I can buy a production quality unit 
secure in the knowledge that the underlying technology  does what I 
want.

-- 
Invalid

Invalid <news@wisty.plus.com.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

> OK, suggest a cheaper way  for the OP  to experiment with VOIP ATA's  on
> the back end of a  small PABx.

A softphone - XLite or Ekiga or whatever - connecting into a Gradwell or 
whoever SIP account. Job done. £3/mo for an inbound number from Gradwell, 
outbound account free.

If you want to get fancy, use FreePBX or similar, and make it an IAX 
inbound, rather than SIP.

> The idea of a headset and microphone plugged into a PC doesn't quite 
> cut it

For a test or proof-of-concept, it certainly does.

> and a couple of hundred  pounds for quasi production grade kit is a
> lot of experiment.

Less than a ton for a proper Cisco SIP handset?
Half that for a Cisco Small Business (ex-Sipura) SIP handset?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Adrian wrote:
>> Invalid <news@wisty.plus.com.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding much like
>> they were saying:
>>
>>> As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting a
>>> refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave off
>>> E-bay  (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his starting
>>> bids have gone up a bit from the £2.99+P&P I paid and the £0.99p + P&P
>>> he was asking for the wireless version)
>>
>> Sorry, but £2.99 for a Thomson Speedtouch is a ripoff. They're truly 
>> dreadful. There's a reason why they're given away by ISPs.
> So what about a Billion.?

I have  used a fair number of the bog standard ADSL routers, all in all 
not bad and quite reliable. Never tried their VoIP kit though.

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

Adrian wrote:
> Invalid <news@wisty.plus.com.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying:
> 
>> OK, suggest a cheaper way  for the OP  to experiment with VOIP ATA's  on
>> the back end of a  small PABx.
> 
> A softphone - XLite or Ekiga or whatever - connecting into a Gradwell or 
> whoever SIP account. Job done. £3/mo for an inbound number from Gradwell, 
> outbound account free.
> 
> If you want to get fancy, use FreePBX or similar, and make it an IAX 
> inbound, rather than SIP.
> 
>> The idea of a headset and microphone plugged into a PC doesn't quite 
>> cut it
> 
> For a test or proof-of-concept, it certainly does.
> 
>> and a couple of hundred  pounds for quasi production grade kit is a
>> lot of experiment.
> 
> Less than a ton for a proper Cisco SIP handset?
> Half that for a Cisco Small Business (ex-Sipura) SIP handset?

None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

> None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...

Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was 
introduced.

In article <7govhiF2ppokiU2@mid.individual.net>,
Adrian  <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> gurgled happily, sounding much
>like they were saying:
>
>> None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
>
>Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was 
>introduced.

The OP has an analogue PABX which I presume they're happy with - just
want to give it a new lease of life by hooking up an ATA of some sort
to feed it via VoIP rather than BT lines.

Not that uncommon actually and I've a couple of customers doing just this.
(I do "VoIP" for a living - or part of it)

Gordon

Adrian wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding
> much like they were saying:
> 
>>>> As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting
>>>> a refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave
>>>> off E-bay  (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his
>>>> starting bids have gone up a bit from the £2.99+P&P I paid and the
>>>> £0.99p + P&P he was asking for the wireless version)
> 
>>> Sorry, but £2.99 for a Thomson Speedtouch is a ripoff. They're truly
>>> dreadful. There's a reason why they're given away by ISPs.
> 
>> So what about a Billion.?
> 
> Can't say I've ever had anything to do with them. It may be merely 
> prejudice, and they may be half-decent. Or, more likely, they're yet more 
> cheap shonky Chinese off-brand tat. EVERY time I've gone away from the 
> mainstream "quality" brands - Netgear, Linksys mainly, or if you want 
> long-term reliability and aren't worried about price, then Draytek - I've 
> regretted it, and the bin's been fed again sooner rather than later. Even 
> Netgear and Linksys are effectively disposable. If I get a year out of a 
> router without it starting to need restarting regularly, I'm doing well.
> 
> I'm starting to overcome a deep-rooted prejudice against Belkin, though - 
> I've got one of their flash N1 Vision routers at home (cable, rather than 
> ADSL), and it's - *reliable*...
> 
I just dont like em  - too many dead ones next door.

> The one exception to that is a D-Link (again, cable) that's been lent to 
> some neighbours for ages, since it's only 11mbps wireless. It must be 
> approaching seven or eight years old. The Router That Wouldn't Die.
> 

I feel the same about D-link.,

Its actually rather good.

>> Or is that too much for a speedtouch , too;-)
> 
> Ba-doom tish.
> Eye thang ewe.

In article <h87kl6$qrr$1@energise.enta.net>, Gordon Henderson
<gordon+usenet@drogon.net> scribeth thus
>In article <7govhiF2ppokiU2@mid.individual.net>,
>Adrian  <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>>John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> gurgled happily, sounding much
>>like they were saying:
>>
>>> None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
>>
>>Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was 
>>introduced.
>
>The OP has an analogue PABX which I presume they're happy with - just
>want to give it a new lease of life by hooking up an ATA of some sort
>to feed it via VoIP rather than BT lines.
>
>Not that uncommon actually and I've a couple of customers doing just this.
>(I do "VoIP" for a living - or part of it)
>
>Gordon

FWIW we have a bog standard Grandstream ATA being fed via an 17 mile
microwave link off a Draytek router off 7 Km of Bt's best string on
Sipgate an in the last three years its not been down the once !..

Don't think we've ever had to make any alterations to the router
either!.. 
-- 
Tony Sayer



                

In article <h86av9$4e7$1@news.datemas.de>, dennis@home
<dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> scribeth thus
>
>
>"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:h856ag$b7k$1@news.albasani.net...
>
>> Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot 
>> including two FSX sockets  and gives me two more features I really miss on 
>> the one I have now.
>
>http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/Search/SearchResults.asp?qsearch=voip+wirel
>ess+routers&g2=359
>
>Much more sensible than mucking about with ATAs and stuff.
>
>
>

Of course, thats why I don't do it separate units do have the advantage
in that if one plays up it doesn't take the rest with it and the only
one that might is the rooter and if thats the case a simple cheap one
you can keep as a spare will suffice..
-- 
Tony Sayer


                

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <7govhiF2ppokiU2@mid.individual.net>,
> Adrian  <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>> John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> gurgled happily, sounding much
>> like they were saying:
>>
>>> None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
>> Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was 
>> introduced.
> 
> The OP has an analogue PABX which I presume they're happy with - just
> want to give it a new lease of life by hooking up an ATA of some sort
> to feed it via VoIP rather than BT lines.

The house has too many rooms to simply use unbu=ffered extensions..I 
could cheerfully use 12 but have 8, and has three doors that people 
might ring the bell on, and two that people do regularly, so doorphones 
are almost mandatory.

And is so radio dense that DECT would not work, and anyway, the handsets 
would get lost..

The aim is to reduce two BT lines with one landline with broadband and 
on VOIP line running on top.

I still haven't found the ideal router.

> 
> Not that uncommon actually and I've a couple of customers doing just this.
> (I do "VoIP" for a living - or part of it)
> 
> Gordon

"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:h87qso$9jo$1@news.albasani.net...

> I still haven't found the ideal router.

There are plenty of routers that have two voice ports on them, some even 
failover to the POTS.
Which ones have you rejected and why?

 

"tony sayer" <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:95hsQLHbw2pKFw$J@bancom.co.uk...

>>http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/Search/SearchResults.asp?qsearch=voip+wirel
>>ess+routers&g2=359
>>
>>Much more sensible than mucking about with ATAs and stuff.


> Of course, thats why I don't do it separate units do have the advantage
> in that if one plays up it doesn't take the rest with it and the only
> one that might is the rooter and if thats the case a simple cheap one
> you can keep as a spare will suffice..

IME routers are very reliable.
There was a well known one with a dodgy PSU a few years back but I don't 
recall which it was.

As long as the router fails over to the POTS on at least one voice port you 
should have no trouble.

The OP could just buy a BT broadband hub as that uses VoIP for its telephone 
port(s). 

In article <h87qso$9jo$1@news.albasani.net>,
 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Gordon Henderson wrote:
> > In article <7govhiF2ppokiU2@mid.individual.net>,
> > Adrian  <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> gurgled happily, sounding much
> >> like they were saying:
> >>
> >>> None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
> >> Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was 
> >> introduced.
> > 
> > The OP has an analogue PABX which I presume they're happy with - just
> > want to give it a new lease of life by hooking up an ATA of some sort
> > to feed it via VoIP rather than BT lines.
> 
> The house has too many rooms to simply use unbu=ffered extensions..I 
> could cheerfully use 12 but have 8, and has three doors that people 
> might ring the bell on, and two that people do regularly, so doorphones 
> are almost mandatory.
> 
> And is so radio dense that DECT would not work, and anyway, the handsets 
> would get lost..
> 
> The aim is to reduce two BT lines with one landline with broadband and 
> on VOIP line running on top.
> 
> I still haven't found the ideal router.

Why bother with the router if all you want to do is convert a PSTN line 
to SIP. Just get an ATA like the Linksys PAP2T or one of the 
grandstreams.

Alternatively, if all you are doing with the PABX is knitting together 
your analog extensions, consider moving them to a multi-port ATA like 
the Grandstream GXW-400X and using its very basic 'internal' extensions 
support.

In article <h87qso$9jo$1@news.albasani.net>,
The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <7govhiF2ppokiU2@mid.individual.net>,
>> Adrian  <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> gurgled happily, sounding much
>>> like they were saying:
>>>
>>>> None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
>>> Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was 
>>> introduced.
>> 
>> The OP has an analogue PABX which I presume they're happy with - just
>> want to give it a new lease of life by hooking up an ATA of some sort
>> to feed it via VoIP rather than BT lines.
>
>The house has too many rooms to simply use unbu=ffered extensions..I 
>could cheerfully use 12 but have 8, and has three doors that people 
>might ring the bell on, and two that people do regularly, so doorphones 
>are almost mandatory.
>
>And is so radio dense that DECT would not work, and anyway, the handsets 
>would get lost..
>
>The aim is to reduce two BT lines with one landline with broadband and 
>on VOIP line running on top.
>
>I still haven't found the ideal router.

One box to do everything:

  http://www.voipon.co.uk/draytek-vigor2820vn-adslcable3g-router-firewall-p-950.html

but at the best part of �250 it's a bit pricey and has features you
might not use/want.

Alternatively, a modem/router you're happy with and something like a
PAP2T, or if you want cheap and cheerfull:

http://www.voipon.co.uk/grandstream-handytone-286-analog-adaptor-p-146.html

Gordon

Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

> One box to do everything:
> 
>   http://www.voipon.co.uk/draytek-vigor2820vn-adslcable3g-router-
firewall-p-950.html
> 
> but at the best part of £250 it's a bit pricey

You're not wrong! Especially since that exact same router is "only" £185 
from BroadbandBuyer.
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/MFR/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=5269

'course, if you're not bothered about the dual WAN support for failover, 
you could always just save another £60
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=8120

I'd swear by Draytek for reliability, though. It'll outlast several 
disposable £50 equivalents - as well as not leaving you open to the 
missus/kids hurling abuse at you when the line goes down.

Adrian wrote:
> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> gurgled happily, sounding much
> like they were saying:
> 
>> One box to do everything:
>>
>>   http://www.voipon.co.uk/draytek-vigor2820vn-adslcable3g-router-
> firewall-p-950.html
>> but at the best part of £250 it's a bit pricey
> 
> You're not wrong! Especially since that exact same router is "only" £185 
> from BroadbandBuyer.
> http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/MFR/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=5269
> 
> 'course, if you're not bothered about the dual WAN support for failover, 
> you could always just save another £60
> http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=8120
> 
> I'd swear by Draytek for reliability, though. It'll outlast several 
> disposable £50 equivalents - as well as not leaving you open to the 
> missus/kids hurling abuse at you when the line goes down.

That's quite a good option. Covers the base, but oh, its ugly. Still I 
can stuff it in the 19" rack with luck.


I have a huge problem with heat in here. Two computers, two scanners, a 
printer, a print server box, a 24 port hub, a router, a PABX, a TV 
distribution amp.

Not to mention the mains extenders..less boxes is good.

On 9 Sep, 07:16, Adrian wrote:
> > None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
> Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was
> introduced.

TNP's original post

"would like to use a second phone using VOIP..connected to my nice
PABX.

Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the
PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, "

Owain

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

>> 'course, if you're not bothered about the dual WAN support for
>> failover, you could always just save another £60
>> http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=8120

Oh, arse - wrong link. That's to the cable version.
This is the ADSL2 version.
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=8107

On 9 Sep, 10:35, Espen Koht  wrote:
> > The house has too many rooms to simply use unbu=ffered extensions..I
> > could cheerfully use 12 but have 8, and has three doors that people
> > might ring the bell on, and two that people do regularly, so doorphones
> > are almost mandatory.
> Alternatively, if all you are doing with the PABX is knitting together
> your analog extensions, consider moving them to a multi-port ATA like
> the Grandstream GXW-400X and using its very basic 'internal' extensions
> support.

Immediate problem there is support for doorphones. Especially if lock
release is required, which doorphone cards in the Pannys do support.

Owain

On 9 Sep, 11:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I have a huge problem with heat in here. Two computers, two scanners, a
> printer, a print server box, a 24 port hub, a router, a PABX, a TV
> distribution amp.

Could you water-cool the PCs and tie them into the underfloor heating
for the rest of the house?

Owain

In article <9aee6c44-7fe9-4c2e-bb7c-44d372426f23@g19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
Owain  <spuorgelgoog@gowanhill.com> wrote:
>On 9 Sep, 07:16, Adrian wrote:
>> > None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
>> Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was
>> introduced.
>
>TNP's original post
>
>"would like to use a second phone using VOIP..connected to my nice
>PABX.
>
>Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the
>PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, "

Good, isn't it?

With my VoIPy/Telephony hat on, I see stranger things - one issue that
does crop-up is in-building wiring - you get a small company with an
analogue system and they either want to keep it, or keep the phones -
which are connected up using cat-3 cabling, so with no chance of running
Ethernet to nice SIP phones then various VoIP to Analogue devices need
to be employed...

Never a dull moment!

Gordon

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 09:49:31 +0100 someone who may be tony sayer
<tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote this:-

>separate units do have the advantage
>in that if one plays up it doesn't take the rest with it

An important advantage. My wireless access point is also in a better
place because it is separate to my ADSL router. Both are in more
suitable locations and connected by the wiring I have installed in
the house. There is not one location that would be the best place to
put a combined box. The WAP is also a cable router, it was as cheap
as a straight WAP, should I ever feel inclined to get cable based
broadband.

>and the only
>one that might is the rooter and if thats the case a simple cheap one
>you can keep as a spare will suffice..

I have a spare one in the drawer, recovered from elsewhere. Elderly
but still works if needed (or at least it worked the last time I
tested it).

That still leaves the telephone wire as a single point of failure,
but if that happens Mr 3G is in available, despite the less than
brilliant signal, to allow me to continue working.

My problem is that VOIP works on my laptop, but not my desktop,
despite the settings being the same AFAICS and them being on the
same network. Curious.


-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Owain wrote:
> On 9 Sep, 11:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> I have a huge problem with heat in here. Two computers, two scanners, a
>> printer, a print server box, a 24 port hub, a router, a PABX, a TV
>> distribution amp.
> 
> Could you water-cool the PCs and tie them into the underfloor heating
> for the rest of the house?
> 
> Owain
> 
> 
TBH because we spend most of the day in here, it actually means we 
reduce heating elsewhere.

The heat via the open door hits the nearest bedroom and bathroom too.

"Gordon Henderson" <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote in message 
news:h88157$1i07$1@energise.enta.net...
> In article 
> <9aee6c44-7fe9-4c2e-bb7c-44d372426f23@g19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
> Owain  <spuorgelgoog@gowanhill.com> wrote:
>>On 9 Sep, 07:16, Adrian wrote:
>>> > None of which sit on the trunk port of an analogue PABX though...
>>> Indeed - although I have to admit to missing where that requirement was
>>> introduced.
>>
>>TNP's original post
>>
>>"would like to use a second phone using VOIP..connected to my nice
>>PABX.
>>
>>Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the
>>PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, "
>
> Good, isn't it?
>
> With my VoIPy/Telephony hat on, I see stranger things - one issue that
> does crop-up is in-building wiring - you get a small company with an
> analogue system and they either want to keep it, or keep the phones -
> which are connected up using cat-3 cabling, so with no chance of running
> Ethernet to nice SIP phones then various VoIP to Analogue devices need
> to be employed...

Like 21cn then.
Replace the concs with dslams that do VoIP and ADSL.
Run them all from a softswitch.

>
> Never a dull moment!
>
> Gordon 

On 8 Sep, 03:14, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Trying to rationalise my systems here w hich will involve much messing
> around with ISPs, BT and the like and would like to use a second phone
> using VOIP..connected to my nice PABX.

I have a RYO PABX based on the remains of an Omnicom FS2828 2+8. Line
1 is connected to PSTN and Line 2 to a Linksys PAP2T which is in turn
connected to an Ethernet router and hence to VoipCheap (I have also
used SipGate and it is probably still configured on the second FXS
port of the PAP2T).

The PAP2T is a device which "logs on" to one or two SIP services and
presents each "connection" as a FXS port (i.e. affectively a master
socket) which can have a POTS phone or anologue PBX 'line' connection
plugged in. I had to apply some port forwarding rules to my ADSL NAT
gateway to permit the connection IIRC, but the actual ports used can
be configured - at one time I had both connections on the Linksys
operational as well my son's laptop to a further VOIP service.

Set-up, as mentioned elsewhere here, was straightforward by following
the VOIP service's guidelines - SipGate are good here.

I currently don't have a number or take incoming calls on the VOIP
line as VoipCheap don't offer it and I don't need it.

Pete