🚀 go-pugleaf

ipse dixit wrote:
>>*Entirely* irrelevant to the issue at hand. Stop moving goalposts, you nasty 
>>foot-fetishist.
> 
> For the record, and to head off any criticism that I'm
> trying to assist Pearl here, I've argued in the past that
> seventh day adventists, because of confounding factors,
> are a subset of people and so aren't representative of 
> our population generally.

We agree. I mentioned their prophetess, Ellen G White, earlier. IVU has a page 
with some of her quotes.
http://www.ivu.org/history/adventists/white.html

See also:
http://www.whiteestate.org/about/egwbio.asp#health

Lesley's incessant (ab)use of SDA studies focuses on one factor alone rather 
than all the others: strict temperance, prayer, life of modesty, etc.:

--start--
What's the "recommended way of life" noted above? According to their 
"prophetess" Ellen G White, SDAs should be:
     - vegetarians
     - tee-totalers (zero alcohol consumption)
     - non-smokers
     - *regular exercisers*
     - active church members
     - Christians
     - very moderate/temperate sorts
--end--

> [start]
> Their avoidance of baccy and booze make them confounding
> factors if the rest of us don't avoid these habits. Also, I might
> add, these figures are based on a small subset of people and
> aren't representative of the whole population. Making a judgment
> based on a hasty generalisation using an unrepresented sample is
> a logically flawed argument.
> 
> Unrepresentative Sample
> AKA:  Biased Sample
> Type:  Weak Analogy
> N% of sample S has characteristic C.
> (Where S is a sample unrepresentative of the population P.)
>  Therefore, N% of population P has characteristic C.
> 
> N% of the Seventh Day Adventists has characteristic C.
> C- live longer on a vegetarian diet.
> (SDA is a sample unrepresentative of the population P
> because they don't smoke or drink)
> Therefore N% of population P has characteristic C.
> 
> You are trying to claim that N% of our population would
> live longer following a vegetarian diet similar to the N% of
> SDA, but you cannot because their confounding factors
> make them an unrepresentative sample
> [end] http://tinyurl.com/3ffoc 

Correct. Pedantic, but correct.

> So let's go back to the evidence you brought instead.
> 
>      Probably the best science we have was summarized in the 
>      American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 1999, in an article 
>      entitled Mortality in Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians. In an 
>      enormous undertaking, twelve researchers took all of the 
>      biggest and best studies to date on vegetarian mortality rates 
>      and pooled all the data together. They took a decade of 
>      mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany,
>      California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage 
>      for vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even 
>      having lower cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans 
>      in the study didn't live any longer either. Vegans had the same 
>      mortality rate as meateaters.
>      http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=121
> 
> Knowing high levels of cholesterol generally shorten life,

I don't know *that*. It helps to distinguish between HDL and LDL. Elevated LDL 
(the bad cholesterol) does tend to shorten life due to heart disease. Elevated 
HDL, though, is one of the factors which tends to appear in those with less 
heart disease and extended longevity. Total cholesterol can be high due to 
elevated HDL, as it is in the Inuit and similar groups.

> aren't 
> you a little sceptical of the evidence presented by the American
> Journal of Clinical Nutrition on this point?

No, because the data show the *same* thing in places where vegetarianism is more 
common (i.e., India). People die, and they die from the same types of ailments 
at about the same ages. The two SDA studies by Snowdon (one Lesley offered, the 
other I offered) both show that *obese* people who eat *a lot of saturated fat* 
die younger. That isn't news.

As for cholesterol itself, I think we need to distinguish between healthy and 
unhealthy diets whether they contain meat or not. People can go veg-n and be 
worse off if they eat the wrong foods. People can continue to eat meat, eggs, 
and dairy and stay healthy if they make the right choices. Lean red meats 
(especially game) and oily cold-water fish are rich in omega-3 FAs and in 
studies have shown to elevate HDL and help lower LDL. Exercise is also a factor 
to consider in these studies because exercise elevates HDL. LDL is raised by the 
consumption of saturated fats, not cholesterol.

     There are three kinds of fats in foods: saturated, polyunsaturated and
     monounsaturated fats. Only saturated fatty acids can raise your blood
     cholesterol.
     http://www.mssm.edu/cvi/cholesterol.shtml

See also:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09319.html

And these two, pro-meat (lean meat):
http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~meatsci/news/6_30_leanredmeat.html
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/020204.Watkins.paleo.html