🚀 go-pugleaf

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:12:47 GMT, usual suspect <godbless@pat.tillman> wrote:

>ipse dixit wrote:
>>>*Entirely* irrelevant to the issue at hand. Stop moving goalposts, you nasty 
>>>foot-fetishist.
>> 
>> For the record, and to head off any criticism that I'm
>> trying to assist Pearl here, I've argued in the past that
>> seventh day adventists, because of confounding factors,
>> are a subset of people and so aren't representative of 
>> our population generally.
>
>We agree. I mentioned their prophetess, Ellen G White, earlier. IVU has a page 
>with some of her quotes.
>http://www.ivu.org/history/adventists/white.html
>
>See also:
>http://www.whiteestate.org/about/egwbio.asp#health
>
>Lesley's incessant (ab)use of SDA studies focuses on one factor alone rather 
>than all the others: strict temperance, prayer, life of modesty, etc.:

Which is why I've always been quick to point those
factors out. Diet isn't the only factor for health and
longevity, and my own personal experience tells me 
that. While Belinda and I eat exactly the same foods,
I'm close to 17 stone while she remains as she's always
been at around 9 stone. She's always eating yet her 
cholesterol is much lower than mine has ever been,
around half, and we both reckon it's due to her fitness 
regimen. We're both early risers, but while I'm groping 
around in the kitchen half asleep, she's up and doing her 
4 mile run along Eastbourne's prom every day and jumps
rope for up to 30 minutes 3 times a week. I do nothing
apart from squeeze the bejesus out of a Bullworker
when the mood takes me. 

>--start--
>What's the "recommended way of life" noted above? According to their 
>"prophetess" Ellen G White, SDAs should be:
>     - vegetarians
>     - tee-totalers (zero alcohol consumption)
>     - non-smokers
>     - *regular exercisers*
>     - active church members
>     - Christians
>     - very moderate/temperate sorts
>--end--
>
>> [start]
>> Their avoidance of baccy and booze make them confounding
>> factors if the rest of us don't avoid these habits. Also, I might
>> add, these figures are based on a small subset of people and
>> aren't representative of the whole population. Making a judgment
>> based on a hasty generalisation using an unrepresented sample is
>> a logically flawed argument.
>> 
>> Unrepresentative Sample
>> AKA:  Biased Sample
>> Type:  Weak Analogy
>> N% of sample S has characteristic C.
>> (Where S is a sample unrepresentative of the population P.)
>>  Therefore, N% of population P has characteristic C.
>> 
>> N% of the Seventh Day Adventists has characteristic C.
>> C- live longer on a vegetarian diet.
>> (SDA is a sample unrepresentative of the population P
>> because they don't smoke or drink)
>> Therefore N% of population P has characteristic C.
>> 
>> You are trying to claim that N% of our population would
>> live longer following a vegetarian diet similar to the N% of
>> SDA, but you cannot because their confounding factors
>> make them an unrepresentative sample
>> [end] http://tinyurl.com/3ffoc 
>
>Correct. Pedantic, but correct.

There's nothing wrong in trying to drive a point home
with some good ole-fashioned pedantry. It's no good
my screaming, "That's a fallacy" without showing why,
is it?

>> So let's go back to the evidence you brought instead.
>> 
>>      Probably the best science we have was summarized in the 
>>      American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 1999, in an article 
>>      entitled Mortality in Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians. In an 
>>      enormous undertaking, twelve researchers took all of the 
>>      biggest and best studies to date on vegetarian mortality rates 
>>      and pooled all the data together. They took a decade of 
>>      mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany,
>>      California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage 
>>      for vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even 
>>      having lower cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans 
>>      in the study didn't live any longer either. Vegans had the same 
>>      mortality rate as meateaters.
>>      http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=121
>> 
>> Knowing high levels of cholesterol generally shorten life,
>
>I don't know *that*. It helps to distinguish between HDL and LDL. Elevated LDL 
>(the bad cholesterol) does tend to shorten life due to heart disease. Elevated 
>HDL, though, is one of the factors which tends to appear in those with less 
>heart disease and extended longevity. Total cholesterol can be high due to 
>elevated HDL, as it is in the Inuit and similar groups.

Too much chemistry for me, pally. I've never understood
any of it. Chemistry has got to be my weakest subject.
Though my cholesterol is higher than Belinda's, my quack
tells me it's nothing to worry about because it's GOOD
cholesterol. I pulled the right face to let him think I 
understood him, but I didn't.

>> aren't 
>> you a little sceptical of the evidence presented by the American
>> Journal of Clinical Nutrition on this point?
>
>No, because the data show the *same* thing in places where vegetarianism is more 
>common (i.e., India). People die, and they die from the same types of ailments 
>at about the same ages. The two SDA studies by Snowdon (one Lesley offered, the 
>other I offered) both show that *obese* people who eat *a lot of saturated fat* 
>die younger. That isn't news.
>
>As for cholesterol itself, I think we need to distinguish between healthy and 
>unhealthy diets whether they contain meat or not. People can go veg-n and be 
>worse off if they eat the wrong foods. People can continue to eat meat, eggs, 
>and dairy and stay healthy if they make the right choices. Lean red meats 
>(especially game) and oily cold-water fish are rich in omega-3 FAs and in 
>studies have shown to elevate HDL and help lower LDL. Exercise is also a factor 
>to consider in these studies because exercise elevates HDL. LDL is raised by the 
>consumption of saturated fats, not cholesterol.
>
>     There are three kinds of fats in foods: saturated, polyunsaturated and
>     monounsaturated fats. Only saturated fatty acids can raise your blood
>     cholesterol.
>     http://www.mssm.edu/cvi/cholesterol.shtml
>
>See also:
>http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09319.html
>
>And these two, pro-meat (lean meat):
>http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~meatsci/news/6_30_leanredmeat.html
>http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/020204.Watkins.paleo.html

I must set aside some time to learn about these things.