🚀 go-pugleaf

On 12/09/10 14:13, I wrote:
> When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
> mid-week timetable? There always used to be a (very) slow train just
> after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>
> Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
> engineering work?

Hmm, I did check the FCC PDFs before posting but looks like I must have 
misread them.  Checking again, the PDFs do show a 0004 train running 
mid-week, it's just not appearing for me on the NRE journey planner -- 
at least for (to take a date picked at random) the night of Thu 16 Sep 
(morning of Fri 17 Sep).

So presumably this is just the journey planner being broken (or at worst 
a temporary change?)

     -roy

> So presumably this is just the journey planner being broken (or at worst
> a temporary change?)
>
>     -roy

No, more likely is the underlying timetable planning system that Network 
Rail bought in earlier this year and has been discussed several times here. 

On 12/09/10 14:27, Graham Harrison wrote:

> No, more likely is the underlying timetable planning system that Network
> Rail bought in earlier this year and has been discussed several times here.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "the journey planner being broken".

It was my first assumption, before I mistakenly convinced myself that 
FCC's PDF timetables agreed with the journey planner.

The reason I had lingering doubts was that I had (it appears mistakenly) 
gained the impression that the difficulties with the timetable database 
related to trains during engineering work that weren't scheduled to run 
to the normal timetable.

I can understand that software issues might be causing them problems 
with late changes to train times, but how/why on earth would they simply 
omit the regularly scheduled last train from the database?  And why, 4 
months into the new timetable, has someone still not entered this record 
into the database?

     -roy

On 12/09/10 14:41, Roy Badami wrote:
> On 12/09/10 14:27, Graham Harrison wrote:

> The reason I had lingering doubts was that I had (it appears mistakenly)
> gained the impression that the difficulties with the timetable database
> related to trains during engineering work that weren't scheduled to run
> to the normal timetable.

Ah, OK, it looks like there *is* engineering work next week (on the 
Hertford loop) although this doesn't, in theory, effect Cambridge services.

I suppose that does help explain why the timetable is wrong -- if I go 
forwards a couple of weeks then the 0004 train is being show correctly 
again.

I do think there's no excuse for the lack of any warning on the NRE 
site, though.

     -roy

In article <Xl4jo.69178$Hv6.63258@newsfe04.ams2>, Roy Badami
<roy@gnomon.org.uk> scribeth thus
>When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the 
>mid-week timetable?  There always used to be a (very) slow train just 
>after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>
>Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to 
>engineering work?
>
>    -roy

In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.

If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
be back before the last train goes home.

Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
trains run so late?.

Also do other locations say within a 50 odd mile radius of London get
any late night services, or as I expect does everyone drive there and
have to park somewhere.

I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..

Comments anyone?...
-- 
Tony Sayer

Well, it looks like I was wrong - the last train mid-week is 0004 - not 
2315 as I had thought.  The web site was apparently confused, perhaps by 
engineering work.

There is a 0031 train back on Friday nights, but unfortunately not on 
Saturdays.

Peterborough gets a 01:36 train Mon-Fri; I've considered in the past 
whether it might be feasible to use that to get back to Cambridge by 
prebooking a taxi from St Neots station but again, for some reason, this 
service doesn't run on Saturday nights.

     -roy

On 12/09/2010 16:55, tony sayer wrote:
> In article<Xl4jo.69178$Hv6.63258@newsfe04.ams2>, Roy Badami
> <roy@gnomon.org.uk>  scribeth thus
>> When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
>> mid-week timetable?  There always used to be a (very) slow train just
>> after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>>
>> Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
>> engineering work?
>>
>>     -roy
>
> In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.
>
> If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> be back before the last train goes home.

Is the idea that people eat before the theatre? Lots of places advertise 
pre-theatre menus.

> Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
> 40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
> the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
> if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
> trains run so late?.
>
> Also do other locations say within a 50 odd mile radius of London get
> any late night services, or as I expect does everyone drive there and
> have to park somewhere.

There is an hourly xx:00 Victoria - Three Bridges train service, at least.

Thameslink used to run more-or-less all night (IIRC there was a 
"missing" train at 3-4 in the morning). Thameslink 2000 killed that, but 
hopefully it will return one day, when we get 24 automated trains an 
hour whizzing us from King's Lynn to Timbuktu.

Within London there are also night buses (well, in some places).

> I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
> that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
> at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..
>
> Comments anyone?...

I still haven't found the 24h binge drinking which the tabloids warn us 
about :(

Late night running of the Underground gets discussed every so often, but 
the general conclusion is that it would require later starts the next 
morning to give the same engineering time, and the people travelling 
early in the morning /need/ to travel, whereas the people travelling 
late at night would like to travel but their jobs don't depend on it.
-- 
Arthur Figgis                 Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.com.invalid> wrote:

> On 12/09/2010 16:55, tony sayer wrote:
> > In article<Xl4jo.69178$Hv6.63258@newsfe04.ams2>, Roy Badami
> > <roy@gnomon.org.uk>  scribeth thus
> >> When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
> >> mid-week timetable?  There always used to be a (very) slow train just
> >> after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
> >>
> >> Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
> >> engineering work?
> >>
> >>     -roy
> >
> > In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.
> >
> > If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> > Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> > afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> > be back before the last train goes home.
> 
> Is the idea that people eat before the theatre? Lots of places advertise
> pre-theatre menus.

And some post-theatre. But many people like to have a drink or few after
the event too. It does seem that London's transport schedule discourages
that, but that's pretty typical in the UK as a whole. It's always seemed
to me that the last train from London to Manchester (2200, formerly 2205
IIRC) was too early.

-- 
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate 
www.davidhorne.net (email address on website) 
"[Do you think the world learned anything from the first 
world war?] No. They never learn."  -Harry Patch (1898-2009)

On Sep 12, 4:55 pm, tony sayer <t...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <Xl4jo.69178$Hv6.63...@newsfe04.ams2>, Roy Badami
> <r...@gnomon.org.uk> scribeth thus
>
> >When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
> >mid-week timetable?  There always used to be a (very) slow train just
> >after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>
> >Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
> >engineering work?
>
> >    -roy
>
> In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.
>
> If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> be back before the last train goes home.
>
> Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
> 40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
> the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
> if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
> trains run so late?.
>
> Also do other locations say within a 50 odd mile radius of London get
> any late night services, or as I expect does everyone drive there and
> have to park somewhere.
>
> I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
> that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
> at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..
>
> Comments anyone?...
> --
> Tony Sayer

Euston has a 12:30am train heading north, stopping at Queens Park
(mostly, and always unadvertised), Wembley Central, Harrow &
Wealdstone, Bushey and then Watford Junction (continuing on to
Northampton). Then there's a 1:30am service during the weeks that does
as above, but omits Bushey and runs to Milton Keynes. On a Saturday
the 12:30am train leaves at 12:04am, and the 1:30am service leaves at
2:00am.  At the weekends the 2:00am runs on the DC lines (obviously
terminating at Watford Junction with buses heading further north I
think), and all other times these late trains run on the "slow" lines.

In message <1joq0mo.fcii2e1rww83sN%d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk>, at 19:30:13 on 
Sun, 12 Sep 2010, "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" 
<d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:

>It's always seemed to me that the last train from London to Manchester 
>(2200, formerly 2205 IIRC) was too early.

When I lived near Westbury, the last train home from Paddington was 
about 8.15pm, so nothing useful could be done in the evening.

Southbound the current last train from Sheffield to London on the 
Midland Mainline is the 8.39pm, and the last northbound to Sheffield is 
the 10.25pm which is an improvement, apart from the fact it doesn't get 
in until 1.13am. Although that's beaten by the 11.15pm to Derby that 
doesn't get in until 2.10am (3hrs London the Derby is ridiculous! Albeit 
that it goes via Nottingham.)
-- 
Roland Perry

In uk.railway Roy Badami <roy@gnomon.org.uk> wrote:
> Ah, OK, it looks like there *is* engineering work next week (on the 
> Hertford loop) although this doesn't, in theory, effect Cambridge services.

The last train /does/ take the Hertford Loop (or it did last time I looked),
calling at all shacks.  Which is why it takes something like 1h40.

I'm surprised it isn't retimed to go via Welwyn instead, though, when
there's engineering.

Theo

On 12/09/10 23:04, Theo Markettos wrote:
> In uk.railway Roy Badami<roy@gnomon.org.uk>  wrote:
>> Ah, OK, it looks like there *is* engineering work next week (on the
>> Hertford loop) although this doesn't, in theory, effect Cambridge services.
>
> The last train /does/ take the Hertford Loop (or it did last time I looked),
> calling at all shacks.  Which is why it takes something like 1h40.
>
> I'm surprised it isn't retimed to go via Welwyn instead, though, when
> there's engineering.

The timetable seems to have changed a bit recently.  The midweek 0007 
has been replaced by an 0006 that terminates at Hertford -- and the 0004 
stopper to Cambridge (that uses the mainline) now runs all week, rather 
than just Friday and Saturday nights as I think it used to.

The old 0007 stopper to Cambridge via Hertford does still remain on the 
Saturday timetable, but of course you wouldn't choose it to get to 
Cambridge unless you've just missed the 0004.

     -roy

Think yourselves lucky you don't live in the provinces. Last departure
from many place is before 11:00 p.m. then nothing until 5.30 a.m.

m1ss_wh1te wrote:
> Think yourselves lucky you don't live in the provinces. Last departure
> from many place is before 11:00 p.m. then nothing until 5.30 a.m.
> 

The last train out of Waterloo to Southampton is at 01:05

Tony

On Sep 12, 2:20 pm, Roy Badami <r...@gnomon.org.uk> wrote:
> On 12/09/10 14:13, I wrote:
>
> > When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
> > mid-week timetable? There always used to be a (very) slow train just
> > after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>
> > Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
> > engineering work?
>
> Hmm, I did check the FCC PDFs before posting but looks like I must have
> misread them.  Checking again, the PDFs do show a 0004 train running
> mid-week, it's just not appearing for me on the NRE journey planner --

Perhaps the problem (in software terms) is that the train in question
isn't so much the last train as the first one of the following day.

Mark

On 12 Sep, 19:23, Arthur Figgis <afig...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/09/2010 16:55, tony sayer wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> > Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> > afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> > be back before the last train goes home.
>
> Is the idea that people eat before the theatre? Lots of places advertise
> pre-theatre menus.

I have been a fairly steady visitor to "events" in London since the
mid 80s. When I lived in sunny Potton my initial method of transport
was a very underpowered moped (well it was with me on out) so
Biggleswade was about as feasable as it gets and in those days the
service wss not good so towards the end of a concert (mostly 80s poppy
stuff in those days) there was lots of watch watching. Over they years
I got a car so Bedford or Hitchin expanded chances of getting home,
but even so most concerts finished about 23.00 at Wembley so getting
on the Met was always a relief.

I have moved to Sarf London now and my concert going has become
somewhat varied to include the delaights of the West End. It really is
so much nicer to go to a theatre or whatever and not have to spend the
second half looking at the time, knowing that I have so many choices
of getting home. Have alook around you and see how many people are
clock watching and I wlways find it quite surprising just how many
people bale out before the end of performances. My daugter remarked
about such an instance whilst we were watching the last night of the
Proms on Saturday (I think it was during Jerusalem) a woman near the
front was looking quite forlornly at ther watch and got the comment -
"she looks about as interested as I am and she's actually paid to go
there". Doubtless a lady hedging her bets on whether to leave before
the last through train or endure the usual Saturday bus replacement on
the last train !

I think I posted on here a few years back with regard to lots of
experiences when working at Victiria and Liverpool Street station on
night shifts of very regular incidents of people being "stranded"
after missing last trains home. I know that hsitoricaly theatres and
"gigs" as I think they are called now had laste starts so people can
get there, but that seems to be the point. The people have coughed up
there 200 quid and the organisers don't give a flying fig that the
people they have so gracefully allowed to get there after work cannot
stay for the whole show or will end up missing trains home.

This all said a large number of people also seem to do inclusive hotel
breaks or drive to events, so it's not really clear whether early
starts would be desirable. Does anyone in the "business" know if this
is even considered ?


> Thameslink used to run more-or-less all night (IIRC there was a
> "missing" train at 3-4 in the morning). Thameslink 2000 killed that, but
> hopefully it will return one day,

With the exception of the core closure and therefore use of tube and
then replacement buses after closure the following are still available
on weekday mornings:

00.12 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
00.42 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
01.05 London Bridge to Three Bridges (4 car 319)
01.35 London Bridge to Three Bridges (4 car 319)
02.05 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
03.05 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
03.35 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 ca 319r)
04.05 London Bridge to Brighton (8 car 319)
04.35 London Bridge to Brighton (8 car 319)

23.48 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
00.18 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
01.02 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
01.32 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
02.32 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 377)
03.52 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
04.52 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (8 car 319)

 when we get 24 automated trains an
> hour whizzing us from King's Lynn to Timbuktu.
>

Hhhmmmmmm

> Within London there are also night buses (well, in some places).

Indeed with many routes now also classed as "24 hours" which around my
way, although VERY rarely used have been useful when things have gone
pete tong on the "overnights".
>
> > I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
> > that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
> > at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..
>
> > Comments anyone?...
>
See above

> I still haven't found the 24h binge drinking which the tabloids warn us
> about :(

If you want to see it just go to "High Street" in Croydon on a
Thursday / Friday or Saturday night after 21.00 it really does exist
and I suspect most people could cite many other locations ! I know the
scorn and derision I will inspire, but have a look at "night cops" on
whatever channel it is appearing this week (SKY19432 piffle & gibble
+1.5 etc etc). I was quite surprised at some of the locations that
appear on here that I always considered - as Americans say "quaint"


> Late night running of the Underground gets discussed every so often, but
> the general conclusion is that it would require later starts the next
> morning to give the same engineering time, and the people travelling
> early in the morning /need/ to travel, whereas the people travelling
> late at night would like to travel but their jobs don't depend on it.
> --
> Arthur Figgis                 Surrey, UK- Hide quoted text -
>


Richard

On 12 Sep, 16:55, tony sayer <t...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
> Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
> 40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
> the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
> if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
> trains run so late?.
>
<snip>
>
> Comments anyone?...
> --
> Tony Sayer

It was certainly true that newspaper trains used to provide useful
services at night. Newspapers were printed in London and Manchester
and taken by lorries to the major terminii where they would be put on
trains timed to get the papers in the shops by 6am. The first papers
printed each night would go to the furthest destinations, later print
runs to places nearer to London.

Rolling stock in the late 70s was generally rakes of GUVs; I also saw
Siphon G's turn up on the Great Western routes, I think. These trains
didn't load all that heavily so good old British Rail would tack a few
Mark 1 carriages on some of them and let the public use them,
effectively getting some mileage out of old vehicles and a free tow on
a train that someone else was paying for. The trains could be given
some tight running times, though they had some long dwell times to
allow the papers to be unloaded so overall journey times were not
impressive.

A useful service that was only economically sensible while papers were
printed in central London and travelled by train. These days things
are done very differently, avoiding the expensive transhipments at
railway stations. I suppose there's not much to get in the way of
newspaper lorries on the motorways in the middle of the night...

Rob.

On 12 Sep, 16:55, tony sayer <t...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
> If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> be back before the last train goes home.

For a while, I was put off from going to London gigs because of this
issue: the last train back to Ely is 23:15, and while that is feasible
to catch from many of the London venues, it's very tight. The latter
half of the concert was spent clock-watching. (The other snag is that
the last train of the night is prone to engineering works, as the
other half of this thread testifies.)

What I do now is drive down to the edge of London and park at a Zone 4
or similar Tube station. That gives you until midnight (at least) to
get back, which is completely reasonable. There are also suburban
stations just outside the M25 with decent services until 1am, so
they're another option.

Sam

In message <f47e010e-d3f9-4173-9327-f7f31ef756e7@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>
          D1053 <rob499@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
> 
> A useful service that was only economically sensible while papers were
> printed in central London and travelled by train. These days things
> are done very differently, avoiding the expensive transhipments at
> railway stations. I suppose there's not much to get in the way of
> newspaper lorries on the motorways in the middle of the night...
> 

Not much requirement for that either these days.  The paper gets sent
electronically to strategically placed local printing plants and distributed
from there.  For example the Observer on sale around my bit of the country
gets printed on the Portsmouth News presses.

-- 
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Photo galleries at <http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/>

tony sayer wrote:
...
> In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.
> 
> If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> be back before the last train goes home.

Another possibility to add to the mix (which might be convenient from
theatreland) is the National Express 010 which you can get from the
Embankment at 23:40, arriving Cambridge 01:15.

I found this out using http://www.transportdirect.info which is a
fair attempt at an integrated transport finder.

In uk.railway Alex Selby <alex.selby@remove.pobox.com> wrote:
> Another possibility to add to the mix (which might be convenient from
> theatreland) is the National Express 010 which you can get from the
> Embankment at 23:40, arriving Cambridge 01:15.

And arrives Trumpington P&R at 0100 (handy for Tony, or those driving from
elsewhere).

Whenever I've taken it it's usually quite empty, but it's advisable to
prebook just in case.

Theo

In article <XPSdncXzie0ShxDRnZ2dnUVZ8m2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, Arthur
Figgis <afiggis@example.com.invalid> scribeth thus
>On 12/09/2010 16:55, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article<Xl4jo.69178$Hv6.63258@newsfe04.ams2>, Roy Badami
>> <roy@gnomon.org.uk>  scribeth thus
>>> When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
>>> mid-week timetable?  There always used to be a (very) slow train just
>>> after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>>>
>>> Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
>>> engineering work?
>>>
>>>     -roy
>>
>> In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.
>>
>> If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
>> Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
>> afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
>> be back before the last train goes home.
>
>Is the idea that people eat before the theatre? Lots of places advertise 
>pre-theatre menus.

Point taken, but sometimes you might have to leave off work early and
then journey for around an hour and a half or thereabouts and if the
event starts at say 19:00 hrs, doesn't leave a lot of time for that!...

-- 
Tony Sayer

[original thread on uk.railway and cam.transport]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Sep 12, 4:55 pm, tony sayer <t...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <Xl4jo.69178$Hv6.63...@newsfe04.ams2>, Roy Badami
> <r...@gnomon.org.uk> scribeth thus
>
> >When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
> >mid-week timetable?  There always used to be a (very) slow train just
> >after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>
> >Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
> >engineering work?
>
> In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.

[For those coming in on utl, it seems the original premise of this
thread is incorrect - however the OP's confusion is quite
understandable given that it's what an online journey planner told him
- for which we can thank the ongoing hash of the new Network Rail
timetable system which is the underlying data source for all such
journey planners.]

>
> If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> be back before the last train goes home.
>
> Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
> 40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
> the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
> if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
> trains run so late?.
>
> Also do other locations say within a 50 odd mile radius of London get
> any late night services, or as I expect does everyone drive there and
> have to park somewhere.
>

There are a few routes that do currently offer a regular service
throughout the night (as opposed to just a particularly late last
train):

* Southern - Victoria to Three Bridges, calling at Clapham Jn, East
Croydon, Purley, Horley, Gatwick thence to Three Bridges.

* FCC Thameslink - because of Thameslink 3000, the route is split in
two but services do still run:
- St Pancras to Bedford all stations.
- London Bridge to Three Bridges, calling at East Croydon, Gatwick
Airport thence to Three Bridges.
- FCC provides a bus link between St Pancras and London Bridge,
furthermore this isn't just a theoretical service as the buses really
do run, albeit seemingly empty much of the time!

* FGW - Paddington to Reading - well this is rather less regular, with
a two hour gap, but it is through the night.
The 01:34 and 03:34 services call at Ealing Broadway, Southall, Hayes
& Harlington, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford thence to
Reading.
The 00:34 calls at all these plus Langley, the 05:22 calls at Iver and
Langley, whilst the 05:17 calls at Slough only.

All are subject to bustitution because of engineering works of course
- e.g. on Sunday night/Monday morning just gone (i.e. early this
morning) the FCC Thameslink service from St Pancras to Bedford was
being bustituted as far as St Albans.

>
> I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
> that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
> at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..

There's a big demand for the extensive night bus service in London,
which has seen a very significant expansion in recent years - a lot of
this happened under ex-Mayor Ken's watch, though there had been a bit
of a trend for more limited expansion beforehand (i.e. LT days, pre-
TfL). The majority of night bus routes are radial running from
somewhere in central-ish London out, however there are a number of
routes that don't touch central London but instead provide what are
more orbital links between districts in (Greater) London, e.g. the 93
from Putney via Wimbledon to North Cheam (though I wouldn't say
there's necessarily a clean distinction between what routes are radial
and what are orbital).

As an example of frequent services can be, the N155 - which is
basically the nocturnal version of the Northern line south of the
river - runs every 10 minutes on Friday and Saturday nights.

How well the night bus network will hold up after the October spending
review and seemingly inevitable cut to TfL's - well, we shall see. The
infamous N213 twixt Croydon to Sutton already got the chop last year.

On 13/09/10 19:31, Mizter T wrote:

> How well the night bus network will hold up after the October spending
> review and seemingly inevitable cut to TfL's - well, we shall see. The
> infamous N213 twixt Croydon to Sutton already got the chop last year.

I take it then that by implication the night bus service runs at a loss, 
despite your comment that it is well patronized?

What was the N213's claim to infamy?

     -roy

On 13/09/2010 10:23, Fat richard wrote:
> On 12 Sep, 19:23, Arthur Figgis<afig...@example.com.invalid>  wrote:


> This all said a large number of people also seem to do inclusive hotel
> breaks

Yes, I suspect that might be a big factor.

> or drive to events, so it's not really clear whether early
> starts would be desirable. Does anyone in the "business" know if this
> is even considered ?
>
>
>> Thameslink used to run more-or-less all night (IIRC there was a
>> "missing" train at 3-4 in the morning). Thameslink 2000 killed that, but
>> hopefully it will return one day,
>
> With the exception of the core closure and therefore use of tube and
> then replacement buses after closure the following are still available
> on weekday mornings:
>
> 00.12 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
> 00.42 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
> 01.05 London Bridge to Three Bridges (4 car 319)
> 01.35 London Bridge to Three Bridges (4 car 319)
> 02.05 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
> 03.05 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 car 319)
> 03.35 London Bridge to Three Bridges (8 ca 319r)
> 04.05 London Bridge to Brighton (8 car 319)
> 04.35 London Bridge to Brighton (8 car 319)

Not bad. I must have been unlucky on the occasions I tried I it!

> 23.48 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
> 00.18 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
> 01.02 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
> 01.32 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
> 02.32 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 377)
> 03.52 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (4 car 319)
> 04.52 St Pancras (Low Level) to Bedford (8 car 319)
>
>   when we get 24 automated trains an
>> hour whizzing us from King's Lynn to Timbuktu.
>>
>
> Hhhmmmmmm
>
>> Within London there are also night buses (well, in some places).
>
> Indeed with many routes now also classed as "24 hours" which around my
> way, although VERY rarely used have been useful when things have gone
> pete tong on the "overnights".
>>
>>> I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
>>> that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
>>> at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..
>>
>>> Comments anyone?...
>>
> See above
>
>> I still haven't found the 24h binge drinking which the tabloids warn us
>> about :(
>
> If you want to see it just go to "High Street" in Croydon on a
> Thursday / Friday or Saturday night after 21.00

Actually, I think maybe I'd rather open a pork pie shop on the North 
West Frontier.

It used to be fun crusing through central Croydon safely inside a night 
bus, watching the natives spilling into the street.

-- 
Arthur Figgis                 Surrey, UK

On Sep 12, 7:23 pm, Arthur Figgis <afig...@example.com.invalid> wrote:

> On 12/09/2010 16:55, tony sayer wrote:
>
> > In article<Xl4jo.69178$Hv6.63...@newsfe04.ams2>, Roy Badami
> > <r...@gnomon.org.uk>  scribeth thus
> >> When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
> >> mid-week timetable?  There always used to be a (very) slow train just
> >> after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...
>
> >> Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
> >> engineering work?
>
> > In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.
>
> > If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> > Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> > afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> > be back before the last train goes home.
>
> Is the idea that people eat before the theatre? Lots of places advertise
> pre-theatre menus.
>
> > Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
> > 40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
> > the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
> > if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
> > trains run so late?.
>
> > Also do other locations say within a 50 odd mile radius of London get
> > any late night services, or as I expect does everyone drive there and
> > have to park somewhere.
>
> There is an hourly xx:00 Victoria - Three Bridges train service, at least.
>
> Thameslink used to run more-or-less all night (IIRC there was a
> "missing" train at 3-4 in the morning). Thameslink 2000 killed that, but
> hopefully it will return one day, when we get 24 automated trains an
> hour whizzing us from King's Lynn to Timbuktu.

But Thameslink *does* still run an all-night service - it gets chopped
in two each night, but trains continue to run from St Pancras to
Bedford (all stations) and also London Bridge to Three Bridges,
calling at East Croydon and Gatwick Airport (the Southern service you
mention above also serves Purley and Horley). And FCC lay on a rail
replacement bus service across central London that links St Pancras to
London Bridge, which also serves/ stops near Blackfriars, City
Thameslink and Farringdon stations - so they do provide a through the
night Bedford to Three Bridges service of sorts.

>
> Within London there are also night buses (well, in some places).
>
> > I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
> > that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
> > at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..
>
> > Comments anyone?...
>
> I still haven't found the 24h binge drinking which the tabloids warn us
> about :(

Disappointing isn't it - sometimes I find I'm the only one who's
cracking open a tinny of Super T at half-seven on the park bench.

>
> Late night running of the Underground gets discussed every so often, but
> the general conclusion is that it would require later starts the next
> morning to give the same engineering time, and the people travelling
> early in the morning /need/ to travel, whereas the people travelling
> late at night would like to travel but their jobs don't depend on it.

There was the 'one hour later' concept , which then became 'half an
hour later' partly for the reasons stated above - it seemed to be a
relatively developed plan, but I think it all kinda came to a
shuddering halt when it got wrapped up (as it inevitably would) in the
new pay deal negotiations between the unions and management, though I
don't think the unions were against it per se.

At the risk of being accused a decadent so and so only interested in
the promotion of hedonism regardless of the potential adverse affects
on others, I don't think the issues that surround the concept of
running the Tube at night a little later - in particular the slightly
later start of service on weekend mornings - were or are
insurmountable.

On Sep 13, 7:57 pm, Roy Badami <r...@gnomon.org.uk> wrote:

> On 13/09/10 19:31, Mizter T wrote:
>
> > How well the night bus network will hold up after the October spending
> > review and seemingly inevitable cut to TfL's - well, we shall see. The
> > infamous N213 twixt Croydon to Sutton already got the chop last year.
>
> I take it then that by implication the night bus service runs at a loss,
> despite your comment that it is well patronized?

I don't know. Those night bus routes that are less busy might be in
some danger, that was all I was suggesting I think. I'd imagine night
bus routes from central London that can be full and standing at 3am
would be relatively safe.

FWIW, the overall bus network In London is subsidised.

>
> What was the N213's claim to infamy?

Call for Mr Figgis!

On Sep 13, 4:21 pm, Theo Markettos <theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
wrote:

> In uk.railway Alex Selby <alex.se...@remove.pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > Another possibility to add to the mix (which might be convenient from
> > theatreland) is the National Express 010 which you can get from the
> > Embankment at 23:40, arriving Cambridge 01:15.
>
> And arrives Trumpington P&R at 0100 (handy for Tony, or those driving from
> elsewhere).
>
> Whenever I've taken it it's usually quite empty, but it's advisable to
> prebook just in case.

FWIW the aforementioned coach calls at several other stops in London
which might be handier than the Embankment for some people, and there
are also several interchange opportunities with various Underground
lines to the east - the route is:

Victoria Coach Station (start of run) -> Millbank -> Embankment ->
Aldgate -> Mile End -> Bow (near Bow Church DLR) -> Stratford ->
Trumpington -> Cambridge.

On Sep 13, 4:06 pm, Alex Selby <alex.se...@REMOVE.pobox.com> wrote:

> tony sayer wrote:
> ...
> > In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.
>
> > If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
> > Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
> > afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
> > be back before the last train goes home.
>
> Another possibility to add to the mix (which might be convenient from
> theatreland) is the National Express 010 which you can get from the
> Embankment at 23:40, arriving Cambridge 01:15.
>
> I found this out using http://www.transportdirect.info which is a
> fair attempt at an integrated transport finder.

I think TransportDirect has got progressively better over the years
since it was launched in 2004 and is now a fairly accomplished
integrated journey planner... so expect it to get the chop then!

Good suggestion though - and it stops at a few other places that might
be useful (see my other post).

On 13 Sep, 21:20, Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 19:57:25 +0100, Roy Badami <r...@gnomon.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >On 13/09/10 19:31, Mizter T wrote:
>
> >> How well the night bus network will hold up after the October spending
> >> review and seemingly inevitable cut to TfL's - well, we shall see. The
> >> infamous N213 twixt Croydon to Sutton already got the chop last year.
>
> The 236 is rumoured to be losing its all night service due to lack of
> patronage.
>
> It is worth considering that Walthamstow's most frequent bus service is
> the weekend N38 which runs every 6 minutes. No day route runs that
> frequently.
>
> In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be
> more frequent than the day service!  Having been insane enough to
> venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the
> network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not
> expect it.  Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy - certainly
> more people crammed in than during the day.
>
> >I take it then that by implication the night bus service runs at a loss,
> >despite your comment that it is well patronized?
>
> I think a fair few people would argue that a subsidy of £700m a year
> demonstrates that the whole bus network "runs at a loss".  LRT got to
> the point where the bus network almost broke even but services were
> worse, vehicles were shoddy and the whole thing just felt "exhausted".
> The buses had lots of pretty liveries though ;-)
>
> I am sure large parts of the London Bus network could run profitably but
> not at current fare levels nor with the current concessions. In addition
> you'd have the nonsense of 300 buses chasing business on the 38 or 73
> and absolutely no buses on routes like the 146, 347 or W10.
>
> >What was the N213's claim to infamy?
>
> Mr Figgis to the Night Owl shaped telephone .......  paging Mr Figgis
> ...
>
> In short the N213 ran between Kingston and Croydon via Sutton. Both
> centres provide good levels of night bus patronage - Kingston
> especially.  I think it was as a result of the normal retendering cycle
> that the Croydon to Sutton section of the N213 was removed as part of
> the retendering of the 213. The result was that the 213 (Kingston -
> Sutton) became a 24 hour service.  When the route was withdrawn it left
> something of a hole in the South London night bus network and there was
> quite a vigorous campaign to get it reinstated.  The main proponents
> were the younger users of the route and there was a Facebook page and
> all the "new media" bells and whistles that you'd expect from bright
> young people who can work Facebook and mobile phones.
>
> To be honest I can't recall quite why Mr Figgis is quite so incensed
> about this route withdrawal but I'll given him 11/10 for doggedness in
> reminding us about the loss of the route.  To be fair it is a stupid
> link to lose as it is both a busy bus and train corridor in the day time
> and there is plenty of night time activity on the corridor to be able to
> sustain a night service.  Other parts of the night bus network probably
> have less justification and patronage - the 83 and 474 are two that
> spring to mind and the 264 was featured strongly as having 2 passengers
> a night when the Gilligoon used to write inflammatory crap in the
> Evening Standard.
> --
> Paul C

And in Walthamstow, the 58 used to have an all night service, but that
was withdrawn a few years ago due to low levels of patronage.

I live very near to the W15 bus route in Walthamstow.  Until last
year, the last bus from Walthamstow towards Hackney used to leave at
just after midnight.  Then a new timetable was introduced with a bus
at 00:15 and 00:30. I would like to know the reason for these extra
buses - is there that much demand for late night transport between
Walthamstow, Leyton, Leytonstone and Hackney?

 The general point is that whilst it is nice to have extra buses and
more frequent services, there has to be a justification in terms of
passenger numbers or place served (eg. a hospital with an A&E dept)
Money does not grow on trees, and I think we could see some thinning
out of London bus services post October 20th.

On Sep 14, 7:59 am, Paul <paul.dun...@ekit.com> wrote:

[night buses]

> And in Walthamstow, the 58 used to have an all night service, but that
> was withdrawn a few years ago due to low levels of patronage.
>
> I live very near to the W15 bus route in Walthamstow.  Until last
> year, the last bus from Walthamstow towards Hackney used to leave at
> just after midnight.  Then a new timetable was introduced with a bus
> at 00:15 and 00:30. I would like to know the reason for these extra
> buses - is there that much demand for late night transport between
> Walthamstow, Leyton, Leytonstone and Hackney?

Simple answer is that there has been a general policy of adding early
and late journeys to ensure that people can connect to and from first
and last tube services. These improvements occur when contracts are
either retendered or extended for two years for good performance. Most
of the Walthamstow network went through this process over the last
year. While there will be some cost impact these changes are marginal
at worst or at nil cost at best. I can assure you that there are
plenty of people wanting to make connections off the last couple of
tube arrivals at Walthamstow and there are surprising numbers of
people on first departures.

--
Paul C
via Google.

On Sep 13, 9:20 pm, Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be
> more frequent than the day service!  Having been insane enough to
> venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the
> network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not
> expect it.  Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy - certainly
> more people crammed in than during the day.

It's been a while since I've had the joys of the N29 (and no longer
live in Wood Green, so I'm spared it forevermore) - but on a Friday or
Saturday night, to guarantee getting on one (never mind a seat), I'd
often walk down from Tottenham Court Road to Trafalgar Square. It'd
often be sardines right through to Holloway, and you'd have to hope
for the best that it wouldn't decide to turn short at Finsbury Park.
(The high number of people squashed together also makes it a
pickpockets' paradise - often somewhere around Holloway Road, someone
would realise their pocket or handbag had been dipped, and the ne'er-
do-well was probably already back in Camden finding their next target.)

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--232016332-395218176-1284494171=:23281
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, martin wrote:

> On Sep 13, 9:20�pm, Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be 
>> more frequent than the day service! �Having been insane enough to 
>> venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the 
>> network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not 
>> expect it. �Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy - 
>> certainly more people crammed in than during the day.
>
> It's been a while since I've had the joys of the N29 (and no longer live 
> in Wood Green, so I'm spared it forevermore) - but on a Friday or 
> Saturday night, to guarantee getting on one (never mind a seat), I'd 
> often walk down from Tottenham Court Road to Trafalgar Square. It'd 
> often be sardines right through to Holloway, and you'd have to hope for 
> the best that it wouldn't decide to turn short at Finsbury Park. (The 
> high number of people squashed together also makes it a pickpockets' 
> paradise - often somewhere around Holloway Road, someone would realise 
> their pocket or handbag had been dipped, and the ne'er- do-well was 
> probably already back in Camden finding their next target.)

It's still much the same! I'm glad Paul ventured out to the N29; it's a 
central experience of living in northeast London. That and the 253, i 
would say, are the pulsing arteries of that quadrant of the city.

tom

-- 
Per Dementia ad Astra
--232016332-395218176-1284494171=:23281--

On 14/09/2010 07:59, Paul wrote:
> On 13 Sep, 21:20, Paul Corfield<aoo...@dsl.pipex.com>  wrote:

>> In short the N213 ran between Kingston and Croydon via Sutton. Both
>> centres provide good levels of night bus patronage - Kingston
>> especially.  I think it was as a result of the normal retendering cycle
>> that the Croydon to Sutton section of the N213 was removed as part of
>> the retendering of the 213. The result was that the 213 (Kingston -
>> Sutton) became a 24 hour service.  When the route was withdrawn it left
>> something of a hole in the South London night bus network

The N213 replaced a radial route when it was first extended from Sutton 
to Croydon. From zone 1 the radial bus used to take about 3 weeks (IIRC, 
it was one of those "try it once then not bother again except in 
desperation" things), and getting a fast train to East Croydon then the 
"new" N213 made more sense, or at least felt like it did. Now there is 
nowt.

>> and there was
>> quite a vigorous campaign to get it reinstated.  The main proponents
>> were the younger users of the route and there was a Facebook page and
>> all the "new media" bells and whistles that you'd expect from bright
>> young people who can work Facebook and mobile phones.

And all the success you would expect from such a campaign, too...

Actually, I have a suspicion that a local MP may have had a greater role 
in the campaign than was immediately apparent. But maybe I'm just too 
cynical.

>> To be honest I can't recall quite why Mr Figgis is quite so incensed
>> about this route withdrawal

Merely the obvious "long walk" or "a taxi costs /how/ much?" factor 
since its demise (plus people now seem to expect me to mention it!)

I guess you know you've been in London too long when you start 
complaining about the buses...
-- 
Arthur Figgis                 Surrey, UK

"Arthur Figgis" <afiggis@example.com.invalid> wrote in message 
news:XPSdncXzie0ShxDRnZ2dnUVZ8m2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...


> I still haven't found the 24h binge drinking which the tabloids warn us 
> about :(

Let me take you by the hand and lead you through the streets of London, I'll 
show you something that will make you change your mind.

:-)

-- 
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."
www.imagebus.co.uk/shop 

"tony sayer" <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:pwi5inE8fPjMFwFg@bancom.co.uk...

> Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
> 40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
> the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
> if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
> trains run so late?.

Being (possibly) as old as your dad, I can confirm that the 
L/St-Chelmsford/Colchester line had a really useful mail and newspapers 
service well into the 1960s/70s that left, I think, at around 4am.

Sometimes it had passenger accommodation, but I and a few "tired and 
emotional" mates were sometimes allowed to lounge and snooze on the bundles 
of newspapers as long as we promised not to either pee or be sick on them. 
Yes, really.

Ah, those lost jumpers-for-goalposts days....

:-)
-- 
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."
www.imagebus.co.uk/shop 

"Sam Holloway" <sam.holloway@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:f505e538-c79e-438e-9700-c2430f12c60c@u13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Sep, 16:55, tony sayer <t...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>> If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
>> Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
>> afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
>> be back before the last train goes home.
>
> For a while, I was put off from going to London gigs because of this
> issue: the last train back to Ely is 23:15, and while that is feasible
> to catch from many of the London venues, it's very tight. The latter
> half of the concert was spent clock-watching. (The other snag is that
> the last train of the night is prone to engineering works, as the
> other half of this thread testifies.)
>
> What I do now is drive down to the edge of London and park at a Zone 4
> or similar Tube station. That gives you until midnight (at least) to
> get back, which is completely reasonable. There are also suburban
> stations just outside the M25 with decent services until 1am, so
> they're another option.

I can recommend Blackhorse Road for this.

Their car park sees quite a bit of comings and goings through the working 
day so there are almost always spaces available.

Same for Cockfosters. Quite a bit of on-street (free) parking nearby.
-- 
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."
www.imagebus.co.uk/shop