🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sat, 7 May 2005 13:20:27 +0000 (UTC), Rob
<removethisbitgramsci@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2005 12:10:20 +0000 (UTC), Rob
>> <removethisbitgramsci@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Tim Martin wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Rob" <removethisbitgramsci@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:d5i6nk$r1c$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Direct and indirect discrimination of Irish communities ... *remains* an
>>>>
>>>>institutionalised aspect of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>British society.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Please feel free to explain.  If I understand that's going on, I'll write to
>>>>my MP and instruct him to put a stop to it.
>>>>
>>>>Tim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Fair enough :-).
>>>
>>>Take a quick look at http://www.cre.gov.uk/downloads/irinbrit.pdf - 
>>>plenty of documented evidence, although rather sketchy. Examples of 
>>>stereotypes - and that is what they are - can be found much closer to 
>>>home. In this very thread in fact.
>>>
>>>As to why people hold these attitudes and assuming you can take them as 
>>>a 'given', the answer is complex and controversial. It's basically the 
>>>same as the answer to 'why racism?'. I have an informed opinion  - 
>>>rather OT for this group ;-).
>>>
>>>If you fancy trying this out, go into a pub with a 'No travellers' sign 
>>>in the window, and strike up a conversation about the benefits of ethnic 
>>>diversity with the locals. Make sure you have a clear route to the door.
>>>
>>>Rob
>> 
>> 
>> I don't know where you live, but  here in London I believe there is no
>> discrimination.
>
>I live in London - presumably you're talking about Irish people. If your 
>friends are 'working class' Irish-Catholic I'm very surprised, but your 
>point is interesting. I once received a letter from Margaret Thatcher 
>(when she was PM) asking me to move someone from an area because (as she 
>saw it) the area contained Irish people, and (therefore, as she would 
>have it) that person was at risk from terrorists. As I say - look at the 
>CRE site. And to drag this thread vaguely on-topic - have a listen to 
>Christy Moore! Or the Pogues.
>
>  Certainly I have several Irish friends who have never
>> talked to me about any troubles. On the other hand, while travelling
>> in the Republic, I have encountered some anti-British racism. It was
>> very much a minority thing, though, and it came from the kind of
>> moronic neanderthal who would be a racist wherever he lived.
>
>Quite!
>
>> 
>> As for the "No travellers" thing - that is rather different. There are
>> certainly considerable problems associated with traveller communities.
>> They tend to leave scenes of devastation in their wake when they leave
>> a district, and hugely inflated crime rates while they are present.
>> Whether they are Irish or not simply isn't an issue.
>
>"They tend" - I'm afraid I don't agree. I don't mean to patronise here - 
>I'm sure you've checked your facts - but for anyone else who happens by 
>this thread - take a quick look at:
>
>http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html
>
>Perhaps you could let me know your source please?
>
>There is no tendency for travellers en bloc to *cause* problems. That 
>wasn't really my point. In my experience a "No travellers" sign is an 
>indication of bad attitudes within the pub.
>
>  On the other
>> hand, perhaps you are the one making the racial link with trouble...
>
>Do you mean linking trouble with race? I don't think race is the cause 
>of any discrimination - it's people's attitudes about race. Now, where 
>they get those attitudes from is an interesting issue.
>
>Rob

Where they come from is quite simple. People tend to identify
themselves with groups. Those groups may be their friends, colleagues
or nationality. It is hard to say there is something wrong with this -
it is just human nature. It is when the natural tendency to group
turns pathological that the problems start.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com