🚀 go-pugleaf

John A Breslin (jab@ash.ee.ed.ac.uk) wrote:

>  The LOCATER is a new product designed to encourage walkers and
>  climbers  to leave  notification  of  their  intended   route,
>  destination and  estimated  time of  return.  The owner simply
>  fills in the form provided and leaves it within their vehicle,
>  which will be easily identified by prominent window stickers.

Hmmm. Sounds like a great way of announcing your absence to car thieves. 
I reckon its better to tell a mate where you are going, that way the MRT 
are less likely to be bothered by some interfering git phoning up because 
he's seen the thingy in your car and you're ten minutes overdue.

Richard
=======

John A Breslin wrote:
>  The LOCATER is a new product designed to encourage walkers and
>  climbers  to leave  notification  of  their  intended   route,
>  destination and  estimated  time of  return.  The owner simply
>  fills in the form provided and leaves it within their vehicle,
>  which will be easily identified by prominent window stickers.
>  If  he or  she  is  reported  missing  or overdue,  the Rescue
>  Services will  gain access to the vehicle and  the information
>  therein  used  to  provide  a starting  point for  the  rescue
>  operation.

The stickers will also be clearly visible thieves who  may also decide to 
gain access to your vehicle while you're away. It's because of this sotr 
of problem with leaving route details that people stopped leaving pieces 
of paper (available at less than 10.50 ukp) in their cars saying where 
they were going.
>  The LOCATER is presented in a tough permanent case containing:
> 
>    * Replaceable pad of destination/route forms.
> 
>    * Useful outdoor safety information.
> 
>    * Basic route finding tips and compass usage - helping raise
>      awareness of safety in the hills and wilderness areas.

To save 10.50 I'd recommend you let someone where you're going (or if you 
really have to leave details in your car write tham on a till receipt or 
something), and either go on a navigation/saftey course, which will be 
more use than trying to read a leaflet in a white-out, (especially when 
you find you've left the leaflet in the car)or learn what you're doing 
from friends/experience.
It sounds like a lot of money for a few piece of paper in a permanent 
case.
Cheers,
Janet

What I usually do is leave a detailed route description in my
glove box. I have been told (by the police) that what usually happens
when they find a car that they think indicates an overdue party is that
they 'enter' the car looking for information relating to the owner.
i.e. they look in the glove box. However, leaving a 'indicator' of
any sort, whether it be a note or icon in public view is simply an 
invitation to be robbed. 

Any thoughts on this strategy. Seems to work. 

Robert Wright

In article <56pbe7$fgm@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> jab@ash.ee.ed.ac.uk wrote...

> The owner simply fills in the form provided and leaves it within their
> vehicle, which will be easily identified by prominent window stickers.

Sounds like a thief's dream. Would you put a 'prominent window sticker'
on your house with the words 'I am out right now but here is where I'll
be'? I suspect the insurance company would refuse to pay up on anyone
daft enough to do this!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Musselburgh, Scotland, EH21 6NL
 mike@blackcat.demon.co.uk - Fax 0131-653-6124 - Columnated Ruins Domino

I have also been reliably informed, via police and MRT,  that the glove
box is the place to leave information as to where you are going.  The
police and MRT WILL look in your car if it is suspected to belong to
overdue hill goers.

As for LOCATER, like some other folk have said, what's wrong with a pen
and paper?  Surely if you're going out on the hills it's a good idea to
read up on navigation and survival BEFORE you have to save your own
life.  Boning up in a whiteout with 100mph winds isn't that easy,
especially if your brain is short on sugars and a bit hypothermic. 
Route cards cost virtually nothing to make up, just remember to use a
ball point or laser printer - dot matrix, buble jet, felt tip and
fountain pen all tend to be unreadable after you've had them in your wet
map pocket for six hours.

Mark
-- 
e-mail : Mark.Begbie@ed.ac.uk
Voice : (+44) 131 650 5271   Fax : (+44) 131 650 5220
=======================================================
As ever, any views expressed are my own, nobody else's.

In <3290B114.2927@ed.ac.uk>, Janet Moxley <j.moxley@ed.ac.uk>
posted:

>John A Breslin wrote:
>>  The LOCATER is a new product designed to encourage walkers and
>>  climbers  to leave  notification  of  their  intended   route,
<fair bit of snipping>

>It sounds like a lot of money for a few piece of paper in a permanent 
>case.

All agreed - and no-one's even mentioned spelling! Poor chap's only
trying to earn an honest bob though - difficult enough these days.

==============================================
Alan P Howes,
Perthshire, Scotland. alanhowes@dial.pipex.com
Or:                          alanhowes@aol.com
==============================================

Alan P Howes wrote:
> 
> In <3290B114.2927@ed.ac.uk>, Janet Moxley <j.moxley@ed.ac.uk>
> posted:
> 
> >John A Breslin wrote:
> >>  The LOCATER is a new product designed to encourage walkers and
> >>  climbers  to leave  notification  of  their  intended   route,
> <fair bit of snipping>
> 
> >It sounds like a lot of money for a few piece of paper in a permanent
> >case.
> 
> All agreed - and no-one's even mentioned spelling! Poor chap's only
> trying to earn an honest bob though - difficult enough these days.

You sure he's trying to earn an _honest_ bob?  Could be he's a car
thief, and this way he'll be able to focus on cars with a tenner's
worth of note saying "I won't be back until Sunday"!

--                             _
Graham R. Pearson             |  _
grahampearson@ibm.net         |_|_|
also at G.R.Pearson@hw.ac.uk    |\ _
                                  |_|
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceegrp   |

In article <329B4045.2A8F@ibm.net>,
   "Graham R. Pearson" <grahampearson@ibm.net> wrote:
>Alan P Howes wrote:
>> 
>> In <3290B114.2927@ed.ac.uk>, Janet Moxley <j.moxley@ed.ac.uk>
>> posted:
>> 
>> >John A Breslin wrote:
>> >>  The LOCATER is a new product designed to encourage walkers and
>> >>  climbers  to leave  notification  of  their  intended   route,
>> <fair bit of snipping>
>> 
>> >It sounds like a lot of money for a few piece of paper in a permanent
>> >case.
>> 
>> All agreed - and no-one's even mentioned spelling! Poor chap's only
>> trying to earn an honest bob though - difficult enough these days.
>
>You sure he's trying to earn an _honest_ bob?  Could be he's a car
>thief, and this way he'll be able to focus on cars with a tenner's
>worth of note saying "I won't be back until Sunday"!
>
>--                             _
>Graham R. Pearson             |  _
>grahampearson@ibm.net         |_|_|
>also at G.R.Pearson@hw.ac.uk    |\ _
>                                  |_|
>http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceegrp   |

Hey! This is a fellow Student you're insulting here!!!

If you kill one, you kill us all!

Who ever said we weren't honest?.......


Scott. A. McIlravie  |  Sailors have the best fun -
Scotland             |  they prefer it rough!

Robert E Wright wrote:
> 
> What I usually do is leave a detailed route description in my
> glove box. I have been told (by the police) that what usually happens
> when they find a car that they think indicates an overdue party is that
> they 'enter' the car looking for information relating to the owner.
> i.e. they look in the glove box. However, leaving a 'indicator' of
> any sort, whether it be a note or icon in public view is simply an
> invitation to be robbed.
> 
> Any thoughts on this strategy. Seems to work.
> 
> Robert Wright


And Rob should know, being something of an expert in the field of being
rescued-  and each time completely un-neccessarily by over zealous MRT's
who obviously had no knowledge of the depth of experience of this old
man of the hills! 

Was it true Rob, that you had three Beinn Eighe maps in the one case
that got blown away that day?

Toby.

In article <57hoka$8up@soap.news.pipex.net>,
Wayne Smith  <fj89@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>   jab@ash.ee.ed.ac.uk (John A Breslin) wrote:
>>> The argument against phoning and leaving your route is that 
>>> sometimes due to circumstances, you are forced to change it at
>>> short notice.
[...]
>Todays top tip - find someone who's been daft enuff to buy this doobery - 
>copy the logo - stick logo in window - write out a sheet of A4 and leave 
>in glove box.

	everyone seems to be taking a swipe at this idea.  i don't see
	what the great big problem is.  the main objection was that a
	thief would recognise that the car was unattended, but as someone
	else pointed out, that's tru of most cars parked in `walking
	spots'.

	i realise that no intellectual giant on this group would stoop
	to buying something when they can do the same with a piece of
	scrap paper, but i can imagine someone like my dad thinking it's 
	a good idea, and if it encourages people to act more safely, then 
	why knock it?

	andrew

-- 
           work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357
    institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh
                     http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

In article <57hrfl$l9o@soap.news.pipex.net>,
Wayne Smith  <fj89@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>Perhaps because it's daylight robbery (no pun intended:), and doesn't 
>really encourage more safety... if you were that way inclined, you 
>wouldn't buy this in the first place.

	maybe i'm missing something here.  if my dad, or someone else who
	likes using gizmos that make them feel a bit more professional
	(i'm not talking about devotees of uk.rec.climbing, but people
	who wander off maybe one a month into the hills) gets this gadget,
	and it encourages him to leave a record of his route, in an
	accepted manner, then why isn't it `really encouraging safety'?

	with all due respect i think you are being a snob.  some people
	like to buy silly things.  if doing so encourages them to be a
	bit safer then i don't see the objection.  to dismiss everyone
	as being `that way inclined' (whatever that means) strikes me
	as a gross generalisation.

	andrew

-- 
           work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357
    institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh
                     http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

>   jab@ash.ee.ed.ac.uk (John A Breslin) wrote:

>> The argument against phoning and leaving your route is that 
>> sometimes due to circumstances, you are forced to change it at
>> short notice.

And the advantage of a route map left behind is????? Surely if you have 
to change route at short notice, you change it when on the hill, and this 
Locator whasis is still of no use.

Todays top tip - find someone who's been daft enuff to buy this doobery - 
copy the logo - stick logo in window - write out a sheet of A4 and leave 
in glove box.

Personally, I much prefer to leave details of my intended outing with 
friends who aren't going out. I arrange to call them by a particular 
time, and instruct them to call MRT if they haven't heard from me by 
????pm. 

Touch wood - not needed it yet.

Wayne

Perhaps because it's daylight robbery (no pun intended:), and doesn't 
really encourage more safety... if you were that way inclined, you 
wouldn't buy this in the first place.

 A-hem,

 may I (again), point out that I am in no way associated with the 
 production or profit of this device.

 The associated route-map is concealed in the glove-compartment
 of the climber's car, not displayed in the window - only the
 logo is.

 Copies of the publicity leaflets have been sent to every Chief
 Constable in Scotland so that the emergency services are aware.

 Advice was taken from the emergency services on the idea as it 
 was being thrashed out.


 Yes, many of you are correct: a route-map in a car window can be
 an invitation to thieves. However it is ususally pretty safe to
 assume that  a car parked at the foot of a remote mountain, has
 been driven by a climber now somewhere on that remote mountain.

 The argument against phoning and leaving your route is that 
 sometimes due to circumstances, you are forced to change it at
 short notice.

 I agree, there are no easy answers. This may not be the best one,
 but it may make things easier for the MRT if they have to come
 a-looking.



				   john b.

In article <57h08r$95o@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>,
   jab@ash.ee.ed.ac.uk (John A Breslin) wrote:
>
> A-hem,
>
> may I (again), point out that I am in no way associated with the 
> production or profit of this device.
>
> The associated route-map is concealed in the glove-compartment
> of the climber's car, not displayed in the window - only the
> logo is.
>
> Copies of the publicity leaflets have been sent to every Chief
> Constable in Scotland so that the emergency services are aware.
>
> Advice was taken from the emergency services on the idea as it 
> was being thrashed out.
>
>
> Yes, many of you are correct: a route-map in a car window can be
> an invitation to thieves. However it is ususally pretty safe to
> assume that  a car parked at the foot of a remote mountain, has
> been driven by a climber now somewhere on that remote mountain.
>
> The argument against phoning and leaving your route is that 
> sometimes due to circumstances, you are forced to change it at
> short notice.
>
> I agree, there are no easy answers. This may not be the best one,
> but it may make things easier for the MRT if they have to come
> a-looking.
>
>
>
>				   john b.
>
  Great.  I only hope that they come up with a similar scheme for sailors. 
There's nothing worse than searching for a missing boat for hours on end, only 
to find the ruddy thing went somewhere else, but didn't tell anyone. The 
unfortunate thing is that most sailors don't have a VHF radio.

Scott. A. McIlravie
Kinghorn Lifeboat Station, Fife.

ajc@reaxp01.roe.ac.uk (Andrew Cooke) wrote:
>	maybe i'm missing something here.  if my dad, or someone else who
>	likes using gizmos that make them feel a bit more professional

Brilliant - by the simple act of purchasing a very expensive notepad 
(with car sticker), your Dad has become a "professional" - whatever that 
means. The Locator isn't a substitute for for skill and experience.


>	(i'm not talking about devotees of uk.rec.climbing, but people
>	who wander off maybe one a month into the hills) 


So why advertise in in uk.rec.climbing???

>	and it encourages him to leave a record of his route, in an
>	accepted manner, then why isn't it `really encouraging safety'?

Part of being safe in the hills is making sure that someone knows, or can 
find out, where you've gone so you can be found if things go wrong, and 
you can't get out of it yourself. I would suggest, that people who don't 
already leave an note with mates, or in the car, are the self same people 
who wouldn't spend a tenner (or whatever it is) on something that they 
don't use the cheap version of in the first place.

>	with all due respect i think you are being a snob.  

And with all due respect, I would suggest that you're being pretty silly, 
if you can't see that this doobery can be cheaply and effectively 
replaced with a bit of paper left in the car or with a mate.

> some people like to buy silly things.

Agreed - yet, I don't see a problem pointing out that the same can be 
accomplished whilst keeping your tenner in your pocket, or, better still, 
giving the tenner you would have spent to the MRT.

>  if doing so encourages them to be a bit safer then i don't see the objection.  

How does this encourage them? Proper training (or an apprenticeship with 
an 'old (wo)man of the hills') will make people safer. Then, they'll 
already know about the idea of leaving behind a discription of what they 
intend to do.

> `that way inclined' (whatever that means)

See above, that way inclined was meant to refer to those who don't leave 
route intentions already - I would have thought that they're hardly 
likely to spend wads of cash on the Locator.


Wayne (apparently a snob coz he'd prefer the money to be in his pocket)

In article <57jo59$c2i@soap.news.pipex.net>,
Wayne Smith  <fj89@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>ajc@reaxp01.roe.ac.uk (Andrew Cooke) wrote:
>> maybe i'm missing something here.  if my dad, or someone else who
>>likes using gizmos that make them feel a bit more professional
>
>Brilliant - by the simple act of purchasing a very expensive notepad 
>(with car sticker), your Dad has become a "professional" - whatever that 
>means. The Locator isn't a substitute for for skill and experience.

	i was trying to describe a feeling, not a qualification.  he's
	not a professional - that's the whole point.  anything that
	encourages people who are not professional to act in a more
	safe manner - whatvere your feelings about it being a financial
	scam - seem like a good idea to me.

>> (i'm not talking about devotees of uk.rec.climbing, but people
>>who wander off maybe one a month into the hills) 

>So why advertise in in uk.rec.climbing???

	i just guessed from the header that it was the probably the group
	generating most complaints, since they seem to be coming from
	an elitist angle.  i didn't post the advert and i'm reading this
	in ed.general

	your whole argument assumes that the only people walking are
	either irresponsible because they are simply bloody-minded, or
	experienced climbers.  in my experience there's a whole pile
	of people inbetween these two extremes who should be better trained,
	but aren't, would be attracted by something like this locator,
	and would be safer because of it (if i remember correctly, the pack
	included a booklet or leaflet with safety advice too).  that you 
	don't seem to know of such people (or choose to ignore them) is 
	the reason i feel your posting is snobbish and elitist - not 
	because you prefer the pound in your pocket.

	andrew

-- 
           work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357
    institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh
                     http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

I can't be bothered anymore - keep your head in the clouds.

Wayne

In article <57k0nt$6a2@soap.news.pipex.net>,
Wayne Smith  <fj89@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>I can't be bothered anymore - keep your head in the clouds.

	and i think you smell, and i'm taking my ball home...

	andrew

-- 
           work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357
    institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh
                     http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

Sgri\obh Andrew Cooke <ajc@reaxp01.roe.ac.uk>, ann <57hqr5$iaq@scotsman.
ed.ac.uk>:
>       everyone seems to be taking a swipe at this idea.  i don't see
>       what the great big problem is.  the main objection was that a
>       thief would recognise that the car was unattended, but as someone
>       else pointed out, that's tru of most cars parked in `walking
>       spots'.
And this is true even in less remote areas, just ask anyone who climbs
regularly on Stanage (unless things have improved dramatically in the
last few years, which seems unlikely).

Le meas
Daibhidh
An t-Eilean Sgitheanach, Alba (Isle of Skye, Scotland)
daibhidh@ealaghol.demon.co.uk           Cu\m Ga\idhlig Beo\

In article <57h08r$95o@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> jab@ash.ee.ed.ac.uk wrote...

> The associated route-map is concealed in the glove-compartment of the
> climber's car, not displayed in the window - only the logo is.

That would be fine if the logo is only visible to the emergency services
and somehow invisible to car thieves.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Musselburgh, Scotland, EH21 6NL
 mike@blackcat.demon.co.uk - Fax 0131-653-6124 - Columnated Ruins Domino