🚀 go-pugleaf

> I've just replaced my Goretex lined Nubuck Scarpa hiking boots with
> another pair of Goretex lined Nubuck Scarpa hiking boots.*
> So - what's the best stuff for treating the leather? At first - to make
> it look nice, then when I get over it, make it last a lifetime?

The problem here is that most anything you put on the leather will stuff the
Goretex membrane so it no longer works. The combination is great marketing,
but not much else. Still, you have bought them, so ...

If you want to protect the leather, imho the very best stuff is Atsko
SnowSeal. I use it on my XC ski boots.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/

Roger Caffin wrote:
> The problem here is that most anything you put on the leather will stuff the
> Goretex membrane so it no longer works.

So one shouldn't spray Goretex lined boots with something like 
scotchguard? My suspicion is 'no' - as wouldn't it clog up the little 
pores, making the goretex useless as it is no longer 'breathable'?

If so then this is another lie told by people at adventure stores...

> > The problem here is that most anything you put on the leather will stuff
the
> > Goretex membrane so it no longer works.
>
> So one shouldn't spray Goretex lined boots with something like
> scotchguard? My suspicion is 'no' - as wouldn't it clog up the little
> pores, making the goretex useless as it is no longer 'breathable'?
A little bit on the surface of the leather might not penetrate to the
GoreTex membrane. OK. But you would not get much protection from that
'little bit', and it would not do very much for the leather preservation
either.

> If so then this is another lie told by people at adventure stores...
Well, they probably just repeat what the sales rep said, and the sales rep
just repeats what he has been told to say by the vendor's marketing
department.
Staff at outdoors shops aren't paid a real lot, you know...

cheers
Roger Caffin

In article <456543d1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, Ross Marchant 
<rossm@NOexceltechSPAM.com.au> writes
>Roger Caffin wrote:
>> The problem here is that most anything you put on the leather will stuff the
>> Goretex membrane so it no longer works.
>
>So one shouldn't spray Goretex lined boots with something like 
>scotchguard? My suspicion is 'no' - as wouldn't it clog up the little 
>pores, making the goretex useless as it is no longer 'breathable'?
>
>If so then this is another lie told by people at adventure stores...

There is a spray which can be bought for Millets which specifically says 
it is suitable for Gortex boots.

I've had no problems spraying mine.
-- 
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In article <45654778$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, Roger Caffin 
<r.caffin@tpg.com.au> writes
>> If so then this is another lie told by people at adventure stores...
>Well, they probably just repeat what the sales rep said, and the sales rep
>just repeats what he has been told to say by the vendor's marketing
>department.
>Staff at outdoors shops aren't paid a real lot, you know...

Forget your assumptions and read the tin
-- 
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Bitstring <pDUO2XCNsYZFFwjW@graigroad.demon.co.uk>, from the wonderful 
person W. D. Grey <Bill@graigroad.demon.co.uk> said
>In article <456543d1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, Ross Marchant 
><rossm@NOexceltechSPAM.com.au> writes
>>Roger Caffin wrote:
>>> The problem here is that most anything you put on the leather will stuff the
>>> Goretex membrane so it no longer works.
>>
>>So one shouldn't spray Goretex lined boots with something like 
>>scotchguard? My suspicion is 'no' - as wouldn't it clog up the little 
>>pores, making the goretex useless as it is no longer 'breathable'?
>>
>>If so then this is another lie told by people at adventure stores...
>
>There is a spray which can be bought for Millets which specifically 
>says it is suitable for Gortex boots.
>
>I've had no problems spraying mine.

They're 'suitable', but IME the sprays don't stop the leather 
(especially NuBuck) from drying out and cracking where it flexes, 
specially if you wash it to try to keep it looking nice.

Actually, trying to keep NuBuck looking nice is a dead loss anyway - 
much better with 'real' leather. These days I just ignore all 
instructions and wax both. By the time the wax gets through to the 
Goretex (which yep, it will block the pores in) the Goretex is usually 
holed anyway. Besides which is the goretex gets wet (because the leather 
isn't shedding water) then WATER will block the pores just as 
effectively (but less permanently) than wax will.

At least that slows down the rate at which the leather cracks. And where 
possible I just avoid Goretex (etc.) linings.

-- 
GSV   Three Minds in a Can
7,053 Km walked. 1,267Km PROWs surveyed. 23.0% complete.

On 22 Nov 2006 19:39:08 -0800, yamahasw40@latinmail.com wrote:


>So - what's the best stuff for treating the leather? At first - to make
>it look nice, then when I get over it, make it last a lifetime?
>
>Ta
>
>Matt

The lady in Blacks swore by Brasher conditioning cream, it is water
based waxes that will not affect the "breathability" of the boots but
will nourish the leather and water proof. She said.

<yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1164253148.637035.169780@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I've just replaced my Goretex lined Nubuck Scarpa hiking boots with
> another pair of Goretex lined Nubuck Scarpa hiking boots.*
>
> The last pair (Look like a Delta, Goretex lined, same lacing as ZG 10,
> bought around 2001) lasted five years before the leather wore out. I
> attribute the short lifespan to neglect on my behalf, possibly because
> the first 8 months of their lives they were dragged around South
> America, worn every single day through all sorts of conditions, and
> never ever treated or really ever cleaned.
>
> The new pair (ZG10 GTX) have a bigger bumper bar (rubber toe and side)
> which should stop some of the dings from tired feet on rocks.
>
> At the moment, the boots are still pretty so I don't want to gunk them
> yet, but after a trek or two I won't care so much. Kinda like what
> happens when you get that first scratch on a new car...
>
> So - what's the best stuff for treating the leather? At first - to make
> it look nice, then when I get over it, make it last a lifetime?
>
> Ta
>
> Matt
> (Replies to the group please. Email address is a spam trap)
>
> * Yeah, I'm in the "I like Gortex" catagory. Your mileage may vary.

I've owned two pairs of gortex  boots with complete leather exteriors. 
Both of them I've used NIKWAX on for the last 2 years.  The a few months ago 
a friend who has a farm told me I was daft paying all that money for 
something so hard to apply and expensive and I should use some duck fat that 
he had  extracted from his roast duck dinners.  He reckoned that was just 
fine on his boots which were  gortex/leather.   I declined the offer but 
then brought a cheap tin of Dubin. Cheap, easy to apply and  the boots are 
100% waterproof with no noticable affect on breathablility. 

anthony wrote:

> I've owned two pairs of gortex  boots with complete leather exteriors. 
> Both of them I've used NIKWAX on for the last 2 years.  The a few months ago 
> a friend who has a farm told me I was daft paying all that money for 
> something so hard to apply and expensive and I should use some duck fat that 
> he had  extracted from his roast duck dinners.  He reckoned that was just 
> fine on his boots which were  gortex/leather.   I declined the offer but 
> then brought a cheap tin of Dubin. Cheap, easy to apply and  the boots are 
> 100% waterproof with no noticable affect on breathablility. 
> 

In which case your boots must have been clogged up already.  Dubbin is a 
wax/oil/tallow mixture which softens, conditions and waterproofs leather 
by soaking in and filling the microscopic holes in the *leather* so that 
water can't get through.  It is certainly 100% non-breathable, and will 
permanently ruin a Gore-Tex membrane.

> In which case your boots must have been clogged up already.  Dubbin is a
> wax/oil/tallow mixture which softens, conditions and waterproofs leather
> by soaking in and filling the microscopic holes in the *leather* so that
> water can't get through.  It is certainly 100% non-breathable, and will
> permanently ruin a Gore-Tex membrane.



I aggree.  Except I don't actually know if the GTX membrane would be
damanged significatly by the dubbin.    That said,  putting dubbin onto
the leather will make the GTX useless.  So the same end result.


All that said,  the original questions is talking about Nubuck,  not
fullgrain leather.  Dubbin shouldn't go on nubuck

> I don't actually know if the GTX membrane would be
> damanged significatly by the dubbin.
The GoreTx membrane consists of a layer of Teflon covered by a thin layer of
polyurethane. Yes, in essence the much vaunted GoreTx is relying on PU, just
like the rest of the W/B fabrics. Not that GoreTex would DAMAGE either of
these afaik. Sure will make the membrane useless though.

What Dubbin did do was rot the stitching. That was in the days of cotton
stitching though. Doubt it would damage polyester thread.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

Roger Caffin wrote:
>> I don't actually know if the GTX membrane would be
>> damanged significatly by the dubbin.
> The GoreTx membrane consists of a layer of Teflon covered by a thin layer of
> polyurethane. Yes, in essence the much vaunted GoreTx is relying on PU, just
> like the rest of the W/B fabrics.

The waterproof layer in Gore-Tex is flourocarbon, a sheet of PTFE 
mechanically treated so that it contains pores that are larger than a 
water molecule but much smaller than a water droplet.  Surface tension 
prevents liquid water from getting through (though it can still block 
the pores) but water vapour can escape.  A urethane layer is applied to 
one side to repel oily contamination i.e. body oils.  So Gore-Tex is not 
using polyurethane coatings like any other waterproof fabric.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/article-Waterproof-Fabrics-tech_waterproof_fabrics.htm

> Not that GoreTex would DAMAGE either of
> these afaik. Sure will make the membrane useless though.
> 

I assume that GoreTex is a typo for Dubbin.  Not chemical damage, no, 
but rendering the membrane useless by coating the outside with wax, 
clogging the pores.

> What Dubbin did do was rot the stitching. That was in the days of cotton
> stitching though. Doubt it would damage polyester thread.

I can find no evidence to support this, and I think it's an old wives 
tale.  I used dubbin on my first set of boots, and never saw any 
evidence of the stitching being affected.

> The waterproof layer in Gore-Tex is flourocarbon, a sheet of PTFE
> mechanically treated so that it contains pores that are larger than a
> water molecule but much smaller than a water droplet.  Surface tension
> prevents liquid water from getting through (though it can still block
> the pores) but water vapour can escape.  A urethane layer is applied to
> one side to repel oily contamination i.e. body oils.  So Gore-Tex is not
> using polyurethane coatings like any other waterproof fabric.
That's what Gore try to preach. However ...

GoreTex I was in fact just the Teflon layer, but it was a disaster in the
field because the sweat and dirt stuffed the surface tension. Massive
returns. So Gore had to come up with something to protect the Teflon layer.
The Bibler 'ToddTex' fabric may be GoreTex I still - I am not certain.

All the current GoreTex fabrics are Goretex II, which still has the Teflon
layer but covers it with a thin layer of PU. The PU stops the sweat, oils,
dirt etc from reaching the Teflon as planned, but the unanticipated
consequance is that the PU layer is now the limiting factor for
breathability. Despite being very thin, it is more of a barrier than the
Teflon. The ONLY advantage that the Teflon layer now gives to the fabric is
the smooth surface it presents, which allows a slightly thinner layer of PU
to be applied compared to what is normally used on a plain fabric. Gore seem
to be a little sensitive on this issue and usually avoid saying what their
special protective layer is made of, often just saying it is oleophobic.

My understanding is that eVent uses a Teflon layer too (the original Gore
patent expired), but they claim to have another way of protecting the
surface from contamination. So eVent is more breathable.

This is all discussed in the FAQ under Rainwear.

> I assume that GoreTex is a typo for Dubbin.  Not chemical damage, no,
> but rendering the membrane useless by coating the outside with wax,
> clogging the pores.
My error! You are right.

> > What Dubbin did do was rot the stitching. That was in the days of cotton
> > stitching though. Doubt it would damage polyester thread.
> I can find no evidence to support this, and I think it's an old wives
> tale.  I used dubbin on my first set of boots, and never saw any
> evidence of the stitching being affected.
You may be right with the 'old bit: it is a long time since cotton thread
was used in boots! Let's say before the '80s?

Cheers
Roger Caffin
www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/