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Started by Andrew Priest
Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:43
Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Andrew Priest
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:43
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:43
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BBC NEWS Replica clothes pass Everest test By Janine Ainley The results of a unique experiment on Mount Everest confirm that the clothing of the 1924 climbers George Mallory and Sandy Irvine would not have prevented them from reaching the summit, as many had believed. The findings are a step closer to proving the men could have reached the top, 29 years before Tenzing Norgay and Sir Edmund Hillary. Over the past few weeks, climber Graham Hoyland has been putting the old-style clothing worn on the fateful Mallory expedition to the ultimate field test on the world's highest mountain. Wearing replica gear made from gabardine, wool, cotton and silk, he wanted to disprove the common myth that the 1920s climbers were ill-equipped to reach the summit. "This is just another brick in my wall of evidence," Hoyland said. Following the discovery of Mallory's body on the north face of Everest in 1999, a team of forensic textile experts from Lancaster, Leeds, Southampton and Derby universities embarked on an experiment to recreate the outfit from samples of Mallory's clothing which had been preserved in ice. Side by side The three-year project, lead by Professor Mary Rose and Mike Parsons, revealed that Mallory's clothing was highly effective at providing protection at high altitude. The layered natural materials used to construct the garments were found to be excellent at trapping air next to the skin. The outer layer of gabardine was hardwearing and water-resistant yet breathable. But the clothing was also lighter than modern gear - the lightest ever to be used on Everest. Parsons said: "The results stand out as a challenge for future outdoor innovators because Mallory's clothing and footwear was 20% and 40% lighter respectively." The results of Hoyland's in-the-field experiment have now confirmed the experts' investigations. Wearing the replica clothing for two days on Everest, Hoyland tested the suit alongside the expedition leader who was wearing a typical modern down suit. A good feel "I immediately found the underclothes warm to put on, whereas the modern polypropylene underwear feels cold and clammy," said Hoyland. "When exposed to a cutting wind blowing off the main Rongbuk glacier, I found the true value of the Gabardine outer layers. These resisted the wind and allowed the eight layers beneath to trap warmed air between them and my skin. "We both got too hot working on the glacier so we felt that Mallory's clothing would have been more than adequate to climb to the top in, although it would be hard to survive a bivouac near the summit." Hoyland also discovered that the clothes were more comfortable to wear than modern day gear. "Like most mountaineers, I am used to synthetic outdoor clothing: polypropylene underclothes and outer fleeces which are bought pre-sized, off the shelf and never quite fit properly. "They are unforgiving in stretch, and begin to smell unpleasant if worn for more than a couple of days. There is a harsh synthetic sensation next to your skin. By contrast, the Mallory clothing was made to fit me. "This meant that the shirts didn't ride up, exposing my kidneys when I stretched, and the whole ensemble felt of a piece when walking. Instead of feeling bulky, the layers fitted very well." Freedom of Movement But the main difference for Hoyland was the level of movement the clothing allowed - which can mean the difference between life and death when at high altitude. "The patented Pivot sleeve of the jacket enabled me to lift my arm to full extent when cutting steps with an ice axe without displacing the warm layers of air. If you can reach above your head and climb faster, you could get to the summit before nightfall." Mallory's clothing did have one major drawback, as Hoyland discovered. "The immediate problem was fastening buttons with cold fingers. I suspect Mallory and Irvine would have put the clothes on at Advanced Base Camp and left them on for the duration. Fly buttons may have been left undone as there are enough layers to interleave." But Hoyland says: "All the other climbers thought the jacket was stylish and wanted to know where they could buy their own versions of the clothes!" The summit attempt and subsequent deaths of Mallory and Irvine sparked the biggest mountaineering mystery, which continues to puzzle the climbing world today. Norgay and Hillary are credited with the first successful summit, in 1953. But a few, like Hoyland, still believe Mallory could have reached the top and are gradually piecing together the evidence to prove it. Hoyland is a great nephew of Howard Somervell, one of Mallory's climbing companions who lent Mallory his camera and was one of the last to see him heading for the summit. Hoyland believes the Kodak camera, which is still to be found, could also hold vital clues about Mallory's ill-fated climb. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/5076634.stm Published: 2006/06/13 20:29:44 GMT � BBC MMVI
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Clyde
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:13
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:13
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> Wearing the replica clothing for two days on Everest, Get back to us when he's used it for two months. Note the article never states the altitude, temperature, or weather conditions. If they're overheating on the glacier, it wasn't very high or nasty. And he appears to be comparing it to shoddy "modern" gear if fit and mobility are issues. Modern polyester underwear is far better than polypro (or merino). How did the nailed boots that are "40% lighter" climb on the rock crux at the Second Step? Much ado about nothing.
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Rob Devereux
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:55
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:55
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"Clyde" <you@figureitout.com> wrote in message news:1hgx81i.i6g9r81szmeksN%you@figureitout.com... > > Wearing the replica clothing for two days on Everest, > > Get back to us when he's used it for two months. Note the article never > states the altitude, temperature, or weather conditions. If they're > overheating on the glacier, it wasn't very high or nasty. And he appears > to be comparing it to shoddy "modern" gear if fit and mobility are > issues. Modern polyester underwear is far better than polypro (or > merino). How did the nailed boots that are "40% lighter" climb on the > rock crux at the Second Step? Much ado about nothing. Well I think some of the points are quite intersting. We live in an age where the modern is very much seen as an improvement on things that have gone and this clearly proves that they arent always the case. You may be right about the lonevity but I have to say that a lot of kit I buy doesnt get to longevity if it is uncomfortable, ill-designed or unhelpful
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Clyde
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 19:06
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 19:06
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Rob Devereux <rdevereux@linacre.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > "Clyde" <you@figureitout.com> wrote in message > news:1hgx81i.i6g9r81szmeksN%you@figureitout.com... > > > Wearing the replica clothing for two days on Everest, > > > > Get back to us when he's used it for two months. Note the article never > > states the altitude, temperature, or weather conditions. If they're > > overheating on the glacier, it wasn't very high or nasty. And he appears > > to be comparing it to shoddy "modern" gear if fit and mobility are > > issues. Modern polyester underwear is far better than polypro (or > > merino). How did the nailed boots that are "40% lighter" climb on the > > rock crux at the Second Step? Much ado about nothing. > > Well I think some of the points are quite intersting. We live in an age > where the modern is very much seen as an improvement on things that have > gone and this clearly proves that they arent always the case. You may be > right about the lonevity but I have to say that a lot of kit I buy doesnt > get to longevity if it is uncomfortable, ill-designed or unhelpful Nah, it just proves that BBC is gullible. It takes more than two days of testing in mild conditions by one person to really test the performance of a clothing system. Not even a question of longevity. Having started out in the era of wool, cotton, leather, and wood climbng kit there's no doubt modern gear is better if you compare high-end to high-end.
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Eugene Miya
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:52
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:52
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>> > > Wearing the replica clothing for two days on Everest, In article <1hgz5bw.1eih2ol1uj2egnN%you@figureitout.com>, Clyde <you@figureitout.com> wrote: >Rob Devereux <rdevereux@linacre.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> "Clyde" <you@figureitout.com> wrote in message >> news:1hgx81i.i6g9r81szmeksN%you@figureitout.com... >> > Get back to us when he's used it for two months. Note the article never >> > states the altitude, temperature, or weather conditions. If they're >> > overheating on the glacier, it wasn't very high or nasty. And he appears >> > to be comparing it to shoddy "modern" gear if fit and mobility are >> > issues. Modern polyester underwear is far better than polypro (or >> > merino). How did the nailed boots that are "40% lighter" climb on the >> > rock crux at the Second Step? Much ado about nothing. >> >> Well I think some of the points are quite interesting. We live in an age >> where the modern is very much seen as an improvement on things that have >> gone and this clearly proves that they arent always the case. You may be >> right about the lonevity but I have to say that a lot of kit I buy doesnt >> get to longevity if it is uncomfortable, ill-designed or unhelpful While your points are truem Clyde has the edge. >Nah, it just proves that BBC is gullible. Dave Roberts, Rafting with the BBC, where the first line begins: "They are dead. All dead..." >It takes more than two days of >testing in mild conditions by one person to really test the performance >of a clothing system. Not even a question of longevity. Having started >out in the era of wool, cotton, leather, and wood climbing kit there's no >doubt modern gear is better if you compare high-end to high-end. I have to go get my Alaskan laundry. ... --
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Peter Clinch
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 08:37
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 08:37
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Clyde wrote: > Nah, it just proves that BBC is gullible. It takes more than two days of > testing in mild conditions by one person to really test the performance > of a clothing system. Not even a question of longevity. Having started > out in the era of wool, cotton, leather, and wood climbng kit there's no > doubt modern gear is better if you compare high-end to high-end. But modern kit increasingly uses wool and leather after completely eschewing them for a while. While plastic boots may be better for 8000m peaks, for Alipne use composites are now far more common and merino wool is favoured by those without allergic reactions in many cases to polyester underwear. Ventile has never gone away as preferable polar wear for many people. While I prefer my carbon fibre kayak paddles for the most part, when it comes to windage and easy rolling a traditional wood Greenland paddle /is/ a better tool. It isn't just a case of "old stuff is worse, period". Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Surfer!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:23
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:23
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In message <1hgz5bw.1eih2ol1uj2egnN%you@figureitout.com>, Clyde <you@figureitout.com> writes <snip> > >Nah, it just proves that BBC is gullible. It takes more than two days of >testing in mild conditions by one person to really test the performance >of a clothing system. Not even a question of longevity. Having started >out in the era of wool, cotton, leather, and wood climbng kit there's no >doubt modern gear is better if you compare high-end to high-end. Himalayan conditions are completely different to the UK - very, very dry - so clothes that work really well here may well not work well there, and vice versa. Ventile is an example - it's a cracking material for keeping out wind, but in a UK downpour Goretex is preferable. -- Surfer! Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Chris Malcolm
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:49
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:49
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In rec.backcountry Surfer! <surfer@127.0.0.1> wrote: > In message <1hgz5bw.1eih2ol1uj2egnN%you@figureitout.com>, Clyde > <you@figureitout.com> writes > <snip> >> >>Nah, it just proves that BBC is gullible. It takes more than two days of >>testing in mild conditions by one person to really test the performance >>of a clothing system. Not even a question of longevity. Having started >>out in the era of wool, cotton, leather, and wood climbng kit there's no >>doubt modern gear is better if you compare high-end to high-end. > Himalayan conditions are completely different to the UK - very, very dry > - so clothes that work really well here may well not work well there, > and vice versa. Ventile is an example - it's a cracking material for > keeping out wind, but in a UK downpour Goretex is preferable. I had a ventile mountain coat which I wore happily in many UK downpours. I used to keep it showerproof by not washing with detergent and spraying on some showerproofing stuff about once a year. When I had completely worn it threadbare I replaced it with what was alleged to be a more modern and much superior goretex mountain coat (which was also well over twice the price). It was crap compared to the ventile, the biggest problem being internal condensation due to sweat making me far wetter than the rain which got through the shower-proofed ventile ever did. I never have found anything again quite as good in all respects as that cheap old ventile coat, although I haven't gone so far as to try modern coats which cost hundreds of pounds. I'm impressed by the Buffalo and Montane stuff I've tried and read about, and suspect it might well be possible to better my old ventile with that kind of technology. IMHO goretex is the mountain coat equivalent of Micros**t software, a triumph of superb marketing over rubbish performance. -- Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Re: Replica clothes pass Everest test
Author: Boo
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 14:48
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 14:48
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> I never have found anything again quite as good in all respects as > that cheap old ventile coat, although I haven't gone so far as to try > modern coats which cost hundreds of pounds. I'm impressed by the > Buffalo and Montane stuff I've tried and read about, and suspect it > might well be possible to better my old ventile with that kind of > technology. I've got a Buffalo mountain shirt and it does work OK, only problem is that it's too hot for me outside of winder mountain conditions so I basically never wear it. I had originally thought that the MS comprised a pile lining that was laminated to a proofed pertex outer layer. The one I have however juas has the pertex stitched to the pile at the seams etc. I don't know if it makes any difference performance wise, but either way istm it's better just to buy a pertex smock and a fleece or similar to go underneath. That way you don't need to put on the warm bit when the temperature is high but it's raining. > IMHO goretex is the mountain coat equivalent of Micros**t software, a > triumph of superb marketing over rubbish performance. I agree Goretex is overpriced but I have found it works well when new and the (nv)DWR is still working. -- Boo
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