🚀 go-pugleaf

On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile
> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
> internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to
> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if
> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working
> life ?
>
>

Using anything shortens it's working life.

"Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:

>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked,
>> we got a mobile phone with which we link with WiFi to a modem
>> router, and use it as an internet radio.

>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>> amplifier and speakers.

>> Since the phone has no "moving parts" unlike a computer, we are
>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>> to shorten its working life ?

> Using anything shortens its working life.

Not so. There aren't any obvious failure mechanisms in solid-state devices
(other than dopant migration in high-power output transistors).

It's also true that most mechanical devices "like" moderate use. Letting
anything mechanical "sit" most of the time will probably cause it fail
sooner than if receives regular use.

It's now possible to build computers without moving parts (other than the
optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.

On 10/2/2012 5:43 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
>
>>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked,
>>> we got a mobile phone with which we link with WiFi to a modem
>>> router, and use it as an internet radio.
>
>>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>>> amplifier and speakers.
>
>>> Since the phone has no "moving parts" unlike a computer, we are
>>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>>> to shorten its working life ?
>
>> Using anything shortens its working life.
>
> Not so. There aren't any obvious failure mechanisms in solid-state devices
> (other than dopant migration in high-power output transistors).
>
> It's also true that most mechanical devices "like" moderate use. Letting
> anything mechanical "sit" most of the time will probably cause it fail
> sooner than if receives regular use.
>
> It's now possible to build computers without moving parts (other than the
> optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
>
>
There are many factors that cause something to fail. I you don't use it, 
it has no working life. I don't wish to play semantics but if you use it 
you are using up it's working life.

> There are many factors that cause something to fail. I you
> don't use it, it has no working life. I don't wish to play
> semantics but if you use it you are using up its working life.

Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.

"jim stone" <tgh6h56nzh@mail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:k4flsm$pbt$1@dont-email.me...
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got 
> mobile phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it 
> as an internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it 
> to play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and 
> speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering 
> if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its 
> working life ?

You'll have dropped it well before it wears out :-).  BTW, a cheap PC 
speaker set might be handy if you want a little more volume.  And you can 
probably find a decent streaming client if you have your music sitting on a 
PC somewhere.

Paul DS. 

William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> There are many factors that cause something to fail. I you
>> don't use it, it has no working life. I don't wish to play
>> semantics but if you use it you are using up its working life.
> 
> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
> 
> 

Yes, this is also true with EM (Electro-Mechanical) devices like 
pinballs and jukeboxes (and other arcade games)- regular use keeps the 
contacts on the relays clean from their designed in rubbing action 
(overtravel). If the machine is not used then the contacts tend to 
oxidize and not pass electrical current well leading to service calls.

HOWEVER the topic here is a solid state mobile phone - and that device 
really doesn't care too much if it is on or off as long as it operates 
in a reasonable temperature range (around 20 - 35C). Chances are it will 
be obsolete before it fails if it runs cool to the touch.

Heat is the enemy of electronics, mostly capacitors - and their life 
gets quite short the warmer the operating temperature gets above 
50C...just read the spec sheets. Typical electrolytics endurance: - up 
to 5,000 Hours at 105°C or about 210 days (7 months) running 24/7.

John :-#)#

-- 
    (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
                     www.flippers.com
       "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 09:28:13 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
> wrote:
> 
>> "Graham."
> 
>>> An incandescent light bulb is a good example, If it lasts 1000 hours
>>> when run continuously, its life will be considerably shorter if run
>>> (say) 4 hours a day and the time it is on added up.
>> ** Where ever did you get that nonsense from ??
> 
> It's not nonsense.  The inrush current of a cold filament can shorten
> the filament life.  That's why light bulbs usually blow up when you
> turn them on, not while they're running.  The induced magnetic field
> also tends to "twang" the filament, which can break the filament if it
> were somehow mechanically weakened.
> 
> While attending kollege in the 1960's, I worked for a short time as a
> non-union projectionist at a movie theater.  Besides babysitting the
> projectors, I had to deal with the flashing light bulb marquee.  I
> vaguely recall that there were something like 2000 40 watt light
> bulbs.  Roughly once per week, my job was to replace the blown bulbs
> from a rickety pre-OSHA 20ft wooden ladder, sometimes at night.  I
> didn't keep count, but every week, we would lose about 20 light bulbs.
> Doing the math, that means after about 2 years, ALL the light bulbs
> would have been replaced at least once.  At 8 hrs run per day, that's
> 800 hrs lifetime which isn't all that great, especially since we were
> running the bulbs at reduced voltage to improve the lifetime.  We used
> the same bulbs in the theater foyer and lobby, where they were NOT
> cycled on and off like the flashing marquee.  I rarely replaced those
> bulbs and they seemed to last forever.
> 
>>     Some web forum ?
> 
> If you repeat something often enough, it eventually becomes dogma.
> 

Well-designed lighting circuits provide 'keep-alive' voltage to the 
filaments to reduce most of the inrush current. Might have put you out 
of that job though...

John :-#)#

-- 
    (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
                     www.flippers.com
       "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Just like not using it does in fact.

Brian

-- 
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is  active
"Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote in message 
news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got 
>> mobile
>> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
>> internet radio.
>>
>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it 
>> to
>> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and 
>> speakers.
>>
>> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering 
>> if
>> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its 
>> working
>> life ?
>>
>>
>
> Using anything shortens it's working life. 

In article
<0ae7fdaf-9a45-4fd5-8800-9a6588a7f7f3@q4g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
   hr(bob) hofmann@att.net <hrhofmann@att.net> wrote:

> He is right, the stresses involved in the turn-on of the bulb each
> time is equal to several hours of continuous running.  If you cycle a
> bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
> fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,

It would be a strange way to rate the life of a lamp - on constantly,
since this pretty well never happens.

Do you find the 'flasher' lamps on your car failing more quickly than
similar lamps which don't flash?

-- 
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <k4fn6h$1op$1@dont-email.me>, William Sommerwerck
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> scribeth thus
>"Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
>
>>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked,
>>> we got a mobile phone with which we link with WiFi to a modem
>>> router, and use it as an internet radio.
>
>>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>>> amplifier and speakers.
>
>>> Since the phone has no "moving parts" unlike a computer, we are
>>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>>> to shorten its working life ?
>
>> Using anything shortens its working life.
>
>Not so. There aren't any obvious failure mechanisms in solid-state devices
>(other than dopant migration in high-power output transistors).

Yes interesting that especially in high power RF transistors, 'tho I
believe in such cases its paralled emitter connections that start going
open circuit...

>
>It's also true that most mechanical devices "like" moderate use. Letting
>anything mechanical "sit" most of the time will probably cause it fail
>sooner than if receives regular use.
>
>It's now possible to build computers without moving parts (other than the
>optical drives). My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs start to run.
>
>

Indeed they do just got one, not in this machine but very fast indeed.
They still it seems fail though...

-- 
Tony Sayer

Tom Biasi wrote:
>> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
>> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
>>
>>
> I don't agree but will say no more.

Laser printers. I have given away for parts several laser printers because
they sat unused 99% of the time, and started to jam when I printed the 
one or two pages a month I needed them for.

Not only did the rubber wheels dry out and lose their ability to grab paper,
they flatten where they are pressed against something.

I have a perfectly good Samsung laser printer in that condition now.

My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
print something everyday (a waste of paper); spend $15 for a new roller
(including postage) and an hour to install it; or wait for a sale 
(every 2-3 months) and buy a newer faster, higher resolution model with a 
2,000 page toner cartridge included for less than the cost of a full load toner.

Geoff.



-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
"Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play
chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician."
(sent to me by a friend)

"Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote in message 
news:506b5d4b$0$9802$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> On 10/2/2012 5:21 PM, jim stone wrote:
>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got 
>> mobile
>> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an
>> internet radio.
>>
>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it 
>> to
>> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and 
>> speakers.
>>
>> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering 
>> if
>> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its 
>> working
>> life ?
>>
>>
>
> Using anything shortens it's working life.

I can vouch for the remark made but I can give you more details too:

I use smartphones, tablets and laptops to listen to internet radio all the 
time and I've only had one device that suffered because of that.  What 
happened to that particular device is the WiFi quit working and it doesn't 
even work after a factory reset.

But out of all the other devices I've used they haven't demonstrated any 
problems at all.

Rocky 

>> Using anything shortens its working life.

> I can vouch for the remark made but I can give you more details too:

> I use smartphones, tablets and laptops to listen to internet radio all the
> time and I've only had one device that suffered because of that.  What
> happened to that particular device is the WiFi quit working and it doesn't
> even work after a factory reset.

Who knows why the WiFi quit? The radio could have failed simply because the
chip went bad.

HP has had problems with the radios in some of its notebooks.

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:k4hen1$ngj$1@dont-email.me...
>>> Using anything shortens its working life.
>
>> I can vouch for the remark made but I can give you more details too:
>
>> I use smartphones, tablets and laptops to listen to internet radio all 
>> the
>> time and I've only had one device that suffered because of that.  What
>> happened to that particular device is the WiFi quit working and it 
>> doesn't
>> even work after a factory reset.
>
> Who knows why the WiFi quit? The radio could have failed simply because 
> the
> chip went bad.
>
> HP has had problems with the radios in some of its notebooks.

Yes, I've heard that and I've even seen one person that no longer has WiFi 
on their HP notebook but they claimed it was the switch itself that quit 
working so I try not to use the hardware WiFi switch on an HP notebook.

Me, I've had a power plug fail on an HP ZD7000 notebook and that was common 
for that particular notebook.

I've also had a DVD fail on an HP DV8000 notebook but when the second DVD 
failed too I went back to the first DVD and it has been working fine since 
then.  I doubt if I'll ever figure that one out unless if it was a problem 
with the connector.

Other than that, I've seen a lot of videos on youtube with problematic HPs 
where if it isn't the WiFi that goes out it is the video.  Case in point:

HP 's Worst Laptop Ever - Pavilion ZD8000 -
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2stqQtQePcM&hd=1

Oddly enough I skipped getting the HP ZD8000 because I went from an HP 
ZD7000 to the HP DV8000 where the ZD8000 looks more like the ZD7000 than the 
DV8000.

FYI the only device I had that lost the WiFi was a Pharos Traveler 137 that 
I got real cheap when a place was getting rid of them so I wasn't too upset 
when the WiFi quit on that.
><http://www.pharosgps.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=001_PTL137_8.00><

But the video on certain Dell Laptops?  Don't get me started.

Rocky 

On 10/03/2012 05:12 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article
> <0ae7fdaf-9a45-4fd5-8800-9a6588a7f7f3@q4g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
>     hr(bob) hofmann@att.net<hrhofmann@att.net>  wrote:
>
>> He is right, the stresses involved in the turn-on of the bulb each
>> time is equal to several hours of continuous running.  If you cycle a
>> bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
>> fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,
>
> It would be a strange way to rate the life of a lamp - on constantly,
> since this pretty well never happens.
>
> Do you find the 'flasher' lamps on your car failing more quickly than
> similar lamps which don't flash?
>

I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be 
interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment 
carefully.  Electromigration is a smaller effect in an AC bulb, since 
the leading order effect cancels.

I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the 
way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot 
vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to 
temperature and reduce the inrush current.

The tungsten in the lamp is run within a few hundred kelvins of its 
melting point, so it's always in the fully annealed state, which ought 
to mean that there are no metal fatigue mechanisms operating, just 
material migration due to sublimation.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:14:45 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) hofmann@att.net"
<hrhofmann@att.net> wrote:

>If you cycle a
>bulb on and off every few seconds, the total on time before the bulb
>fails will be only a few hundered hours for a 1000 hour rated bulb,

Every wonder where the 1000 hrs came from?  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence>
If you stress a 1000 hr incandescent bulb, the lifetime will be even
less.

It also applies to CFL bulbs:
<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/6122459/Lifespan-of-energy-saving-bulbs-reduced-by-repeated-switching.html>
    The lifespan of energy-saving light bulbs can be reduced 
    by up to 85 per cent if they are switched off and on too often...

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 21:15:59 -0400, Big Steel
<TheBigrrr669yyyyy@TheBigrrrr6669yyyy.com> wrote:

>You shit for brains your ignorance is truly amazing. You are an 
>undercover racist idiot. Go to the Republican side, because you are not 
>fit to be a Democrat.
>
>After Obama wins, Zimmerman will be dealt with next.

Who opened the kennel doors and let the arseholes out?

On 03/10/2012 00:49, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "David Woolley" <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:k4fq2r$ics$1@dont-email.me...
>> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>>> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs
>>> start to run.
>
>> These, if flash memory, do have a definite wear out mechanism,
>> although they do try to avoid writing to the same spot, even if the
>> software does, to mitigate this.
>
> Correct. SSDs are an exception. They contain "leveling" software that makes
> sure the disk is written to evenly. The Crucial disk I use is spec'd at
> about 40TB of total writes.

For most usage scenarios the theoretical lifetimes of modern SSDs are 
longer than HDDs.

On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
>
>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>> carefully.
>
> It's an accelerated life test.  The deration curve of the incandescent
> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
>    (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph.  Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
> a bulb to blow.  So, they increase the applied voltage, which
> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
> the higher voltage.  Then, they work backwards on the curve to
> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.

You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known 
more accurately than 12 to 16.

>
> When I was specifying lamps for a direction finder for the USCG, I had
> to deal with minimum lifetime specs.  I asked the vendor (Dialight)
> how they tested their T-1 3/4 bulbs and was told that they did an
> accelerated lifetime test on a few bulbs from each lot to insure
> adequate lifetime along with the usual sampled 1.5% AQL failure test.
>
>> Electromigration is a smaller effect in an AC bulb, since
>> the leading order effect cancels.
>
> Yep.  As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.

I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said.  The 
wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of 
progressive fatigue failure.

>
>> I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
>> way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
>> vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
>> temperature and reduce the inrush current.
>
> Yep.  See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
> 40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling.  The same lamps in the
> lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.

I was actually disagreeing with you.  There are lots of possible reasons 
for the marquee lights failing prematurely.  I'm not a tungsten expert 
myself, so I'd be very interested in seeing actual data that shows a 
dramatic shortening of life due to cycling.  I'm not saying it's 
impossible, just that I haven't seen any such data.

>
>> The tungsten in the lamp is run within a few hundred kelvins of its
>> melting point, so it's always in the fully annealed state, which ought
>> to mean that there are no metal fatigue mechanisms operating, just
>> material migration due to sublimation.
>
> Yep, but different failure mode.  When the extremely thin layer of
> tungsten plating evaporates, the light becomes dimmer.  Below some
> brightness level, it is considered to have failed.  However, most such
> tungsten coated filaments fail due to corrosion of the base steel
> alloy wire which is exposed to the internal gases inside the bulb
> after the tungsten evaporates.  The gases (mostly nitrogen and some
> argon) are inert, but there's a little water vapor outgassing from
> heating the glass envelope, which eventually corrodes the filament.
> Other failure modes are hot spots and notches caused by manufacturing
> variations and tungsten evaporation.
>

The filament isn't tungsten-plated, it's pure tungsten or a low alloy. 
The brightness drop comes from tungsten condensing on the envelope.

And the connecting wire isn't plain steel, it's generally Dumet, 
http://www.jlcelectromet.com/dumetwire.htm

which is a 42% Ni steel with OFHC copper or nickel plating.

You're making a lot of that up.  I'd still like to see 
carefully-collected data.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 10:34:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

>Tom Biasi wrote:
>>> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
>>> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't agree but will say no more.
>
>Laser printers. I have given away for parts several laser printers because
>they sat unused 99% of the time, and started to jam when I printed the 
>one or two pages a month I needed them for.

I've seen flat spots on laser printers.  However, just running a few
pages through the printer usually returns them to normal.  If not, use
some rubber roller restorer to soften the rubber.
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/specials/misc/all/S03>

In my experience, many printer jams are caused by paper slippage on
the rollers.  Usually, it's the white paper dust that causes slippage,
but it can easily be household dust accumulated over the time the
printer was idle.  Maybe hitting the printer with a compressed air
blast before operating might help.

Another slippage problem is when the rubber surface becomes glazed or
polished.  The rubber roller restorer will take the surface gloss off
the rollers, and improve the traction, but if there's any rubber wear,
the roller(s) should be replaced.

>Not only did the rubber wheels dry out and lose their ability to grab paper,
>they flatten where they are pressed against something.
>
>I have a perfectly good Samsung laser printer in that condition now.

Ugh.  I don't have much nice to say about Samsung printers.  They're
cheap, function adequately, use overpriced toner carts, and don't last
very long.  I've never really done an autopsy to isolate a culprit.
The usual end of life symptoms are either paper jams or flimsy broken
plastic parts.

>My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
>print something everyday (a waste of paper); spend $15 for a new roller
>(including postage) and an hour to install it; or wait for a sale 
>(every 2-3 months) and buy a newer faster, higher resolution model with a 
>2,000 page toner cartridge included for less than the cost of a full load toner.

Chuckle.  Yeah, that's about it.  Next purchase, I suggest HP LaserJet
printers.  They have their own collection of problems, but parts and
refills are commonly available and cheap.  The printer cannibals sell
used parts and assemblies fairly cheap on eBay.  Also, expertise is
more easily found:
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com>
My favorite printer of the week is the HP 2300DN or DTN at between $90
to $220 used depending on condition and options.  Favorite feature is
double sided (duplex) printing.

>Geoff.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 19:42:21 -0400, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>My 39YO HP45 still works but the power switch is too flaky to be usable.

I collect old HP LED type calculators.  The HP 45 is well worth fixing
and using.

The switches tend to fail due to dirt accumulation and/or wearing a
grove into the PCB contact area from overuse.  I've repaired both
problems.
<http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv018.cgi?read=131014>
This is the dirt problem:
<http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f96/geoff_q/gunk.jpg>
I couldn't find a photo of a grove worn in the contacts.  I've been
quite successful with just cleaning the switch area.  I've also
repaired missing gold problems with gold leaf.  It was difficult,
required a microscope, a steady hand, no air movement, and
considerable patience.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> refills are commonly available and cheap.  The printer cannibals sell
> used parts and assemblies fairly cheap on eBay.  Also, expertise is
> more easily found:
><http://www.fixyourownprinter.com>
> My favorite printer of the week is the HP 2300DN or DTN at between $90
> to $220 used depending on condition and options.  Favorite feature is
> double sided (duplex) printing.

Problem with that is my location. Shipping anything from anywhere except
China is too expensive to make it worth while. A $10 (postage included)
Samsung feed roller is worth buying, a part that does not fit in an envelope 
and has to go in a USPS box costs 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a cheap Samsung 
printer. UPS/DHL/FDEDX double or tripple that price.

Also to be honest, the loss/theft rate from the US is too high to buy
from unless it is via PayPal and eBay.

Geoff.
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
"Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play
chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician."
(sent to me by a friend)

On 10/3/2012 2:01 AM, MikeS wrote:

>> Using anything shortens it's working life.
>
> Seems to go against the whole ethos of exercising. Never get out of bed and
> live forever ...
>
>
If you were an android that may be true.

In article <slrnk6ror4.jds.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>,
   Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> Problem with that is my location. Shipping anything from anywhere except
> China is too expensive to make it worth while. A $10 (postage included)
> Samsung feed roller is worth buying, a part that does not fit in an
> envelope and has to go in a USPS box costs 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a
> cheap Samsung printer. UPS/DHL/FDEDX double or tripple that price.

> Also to be honest, the loss/theft rate from the US is too high to buy
> from unless it is via PayPal and eBay.

Couple of years back I needed a new element for my Pace SX80 desolder
iron. Not one to be had in the UK. Got one from Pace US direct at not a
bad price - but they charged 40 gbp for P&P by courier - wouldn't send it
by post. So the delivered price was considerably more than the delivered
price from a UK supplier. If it had been coming from Hong Kong or China,
would have been less than half the price and free postage... 

There's lots of stuff I'd buy from the US if they would sort out their
postal service. I get the impression as much is stolen as delivered.

-- 
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:21:26 +0100, "jim stone"
<tgh6h56nzh@mail.invalid> wrote:

>Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile 
>phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an 
>internet radio.
>
>Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to 
>play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.

Several of my customers do exactly the same thing.  Some play stored
MP3/AAC music, while others stream from Pandora or Slacker.  Most use
an iPhone 3G, iPod Touch, or Droid A855 for the wi-fi connectivity.
All have the phone plugged into a charger.  No fatalities.

>Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if 
>this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working 
>life ? 

It won't hurt the phone in any way.  However, the internal battery is
another story.  For Li-Ion, battery life is shortened when the battery
is hot, and when it's left at full charge all the time.  For details,
see:
<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries>
     Most Li-ions are charged to 4.20V/cell and every reduction 
     of 0.10V/cell is said to double cycle life.
This is not much of a problem for easily replaceable inexpensive
batteries, such as in the Droid A855, but might be an issue with the
designed obsolescent iPhone series, where brain surgery is required to
replace the battery.  Apple has therefore wisely elected to charge
their Li-Ion batteries to 4.1v or what I estimate to be 95% of full
capacity.  This greatly extends the battery life and will delay when
you start cursing Apple products to about 3 years.
<http://stephenwmoore.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/iphone-battery-life/>

Someone mentioned having a phone with a dead wi-fi.  I have two Apple
3G iPhones, both with intermittent wi-fi sections.  If I turn the
power off on the iPhone for a day, the iPhones will have a working
wi-fi section for about 30 minutes.  I also have a third working
iPhone 3G, where the wi-fi has never failed.  I've been inside trying
to repair them, and failed.


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

On 10/04/2012 07:11 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article<slrnk6ror4.jds.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>,
>     Geoffrey S. Mendelson<gsm@mendelson.com>  wrote:
>> Problem with that is my location. Shipping anything from anywhere except
>> China is too expensive to make it worth while. A $10 (postage included)
>> Samsung feed roller is worth buying, a part that does not fit in an
>> envelope and has to go in a USPS box costs 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a
>> cheap Samsung printer. UPS/DHL/FDEDX double or tripple that price.
>
>> Also to be honest, the loss/theft rate from the US is too high to buy
>> from unless it is via PayPal and eBay.
>
> Couple of years back I needed a new element for my Pace SX80 desolder
> iron. Not one to be had in the UK. Got one from Pace US direct at not a
> bad price - but they charged 40 gbp for P&P by courier - wouldn't send it
> by post. So the delivered price was considerably more than the delivered
> price from a UK supplier. If it had been coming from Hong Kong or China,
> would have been less than half the price and free postage...
>
> There's lots of stuff I'd buy from the US if they would sort out their
> postal service. I get the impression as much is stolen as delivered.
>

I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> 
> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.


   Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
reasonable terms with the US postal system.

In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLNnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
   Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > 
> > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.


>    Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
> reasonable terms with the US postal system.

Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
not. So explain that.

-- 
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> 
> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLNnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>    Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > >
> > > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
> 
> >    Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
> > reasonable terms with the US postal system.
> 
> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
> not. So explain that.


Probably the War of 1812. ;)

Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
when compared with Canada Post.  Those morons can't find their rear ends
with both hands and a map.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 00:11:01 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLNnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>   Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> > 
>> > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>
>
>>    Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.

Nope, not here either.

>Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>not. So explain that.

Follow the money.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> 
> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLNnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>    Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > >
> > > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
> 
> >    Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
> > reasonable terms with the US postal system.
> 
> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
> not. So explain that.


   Sigh.  Ask 'your' post office why the rates are so damn high.  The
rates are agreed on between countries, and the British system is the
only that people constantly complain about.  Likely high tarriffs on
imports from the US that are imposed on incoming goods.

In article <k4jdel$cb4$2@reversiblemaps.ath.cx>, jasen@xnet.co.nz 
says...
> 
> On 2012-10-02, jim stone <tgh6h56nzh@mail.invalid> wrote:
> > Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile 
> > phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an 
> > internet radio.
> >
> > Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to 
> > play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
> >
> > Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if 
> > this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working 
> > life ? 
> 
> It may be bad for the battery

My favorite apps on my phone:

TuneIn, Pandora, ScannerRadioPro, EchoLink and RepeaterBook. 

And that's kind of why I got the extended battery pack for the phone. 

On 06/10/2012 00:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>
>> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLNnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>>     Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>>
>>>     Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>>
>> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>> not. So explain that.
>
>
> Probably the War of 1812. ;)
>
> Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
> when compared with Canada Post.  Those morons can't find their rear ends
> with both hands and a map.
>

The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier 
when we would just put in the post.  Tending to happen in the UK also 
even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and 
of course do not charge extra to send further.  There has been a big 
campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for 
many postcode areas.

In article <mY2dnbVhx85fUPLNnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
   Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> > 
> > In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLNnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> >    Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
> > 
> > >    Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
> > > reasonable terms with the US postal system.
> > 
> > Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
> > not. So explain that.


>    Sigh.  Ask 'your' post office why the rates are so damn high.  The
> rates are agreed on between countries, and the British system is the
> only that people constantly complain about.  Likely high tarriffs on
> imports from the US that are imposed on incoming goods.

Sigh. Try reading what was said. Most US companies refuse to send anything
to the UK by normal post. They insist on using a courier service. If the
fault was at the UK end, this would apply to all other countries sending
things here. I know logic isn't your strong point - at least compared to
your blind patriotism - but even then...

-- 
*Don't squat with your spurs on *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <EfmdnfC5gagOdvLNnZ2dnUVZ7radnZ2d@bt.com>,
   MB <MB@nospam.nospam> wrote:
> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier 
> when we would just put in the post. 

Quite. And I was simply guessing at an explanation. Any better guesses
happily considered.

> Tending to happen in the UK also 
> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and 
> of course do not charge extra to send further.  There has been a big 
> campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for 
> many postcode areas.

It's what happens when private firms cherry pick the most profitable stuff.

-- 
*That's it! I�m calling grandma!

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/06/2012 04:28 AM, MB wrote:
> On 06/10/2012 00:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <GcKdnTpQbqR-ofLNnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.
>>>
>>>> Me, either. It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>>>> reasonable terms with the US postal system.
>>>
>>> Other countries seem quite happy to use ordinary post to the UK. The US,
>>> not. So explain that.
>>
>>
>> Probably the War of 1812. ;)
>>
>> Coming from Canada, I can tell you that the USPS is very nearly flawless
>> when compared with Canada Post. Those morons can't find their rear ends
>> with both hands and a map.
>>
>
> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and
> of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a big
> campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for
> many postcode areas.


That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think.  Sending somebody a 
bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their 
input isn't that urgent.  Letter mail here is also very secure IME.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:02:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> 
>> I've never had a package stolen, as far as I can recall.

>   Me, either.  It's probably that their postal system won't come to
>reasonable terms with the US postal system.

I've never had a package stolen from the USPS, but I *have*
had one stolen from UPS.  

Back in 1974 I had some stereo equipment stolen in a
break-in, and ordered a replacement to be sent UPS.  The
shipment arrived while I was at work, so they left a note
that they'd try the next day.  I called and said I'd pick it
up from their office after I got off work.

It was December, so there was a long line.  After an
interminable wait, they said they didn't have the package...
must've gone out for delivery again by mistake.  Got home,
no note.  Called again and repeated everything the next day.

They finally admitted that they couldn't find the package,
and blamed it on the seasonal help.  They eventually paid
for a replacement, after a lot of paperwork.  

In all the years since, though, I've never had a problem.  
(Of course, I became gun-shy about ordering "good stuff" in
December!)

Best regards,


Bob Masta
 
              DAQARTA  v7.10
   Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
              www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
 Frequency Counter, Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI 
   FREE Signal Generator, DaqMusic generator    
          Science with your sound card!

In article <epudnWDGL-LfiO3NnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@supernews.com>,
   Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> > The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> > when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
> > even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
> > and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
> > big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
> > for many postcode areas.


> That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think.  Sending somebody a 
> bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their 
> input isn't that urgent.  Letter mail here is also very secure IME.

Fine if 'they' want to do this and pay for it. My complaint is buying
goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?

-- 
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/06/2012 09:08 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article<epudnWDGL-LfiO3NnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@supernews.com>,
>     Phil Hobbs<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
>>> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
>>> when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
>>> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
>>> and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
>>> big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
>>> for many postcode areas.
>
>
>> That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think.  Sending somebody a
>> bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
>> input isn't that urgent.  Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
>
> Fine if 'they' want to do this and pay for it. My complaint is buying
> goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
> reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
> the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?
>

Dunno.  It may have something to do with package tracking and fraudulent 
claims for loss or damage.   The logistics companies give you one 
tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post 
offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very 
hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it 
went.

Here, there's lots of competition in logistics, so the service is 
generally excellent and the cost very reasonable.

US postal rates are also quite low, which may make it more difficult for 
them to negotiate a revenue sharing agreement with higher cost 
organizations.  (Canada Post is the example I'm most familiar with--at 
one point quite recently, all mail from the US to Canada had to go 
through the central Toronto sorting facility, even if it was a letter 
sent from Vancouver to Seattle.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> The logistics companies give you one 
> tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post 
> offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very 
> hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it 
> went.
>

Registered mail uses one tracking number worldwide too. It's R, a letter,
a fixed length string of numbers and the country code. I can track a 
letter or package sent registered mail from almost any country on 
17track.net, several other similar sites, and once it is here on the
Israel postal site.

The problem with the US is that they send regular international mail
using a tracking number with an L at the begining, and those are
tracked as far as the first post office the sender drops them off at.

Occasionally they are tracked to a sorting center, but not always, and usually
not.

Several years ago the USPS restructured their rates for mail outside of the
US. They dropped surface mail, replacing it with an air mail system that
takes almost as long. I have had packages take 6 weeks to arrive here airmail
from the US.

They did a survey of prices of the courier services, and simply charge 1/2
of what the courier services do. If you want registered mail, they charge
another $12 or so for it.

Compare that to China which charges a few dollars to send a package, and 
another dollar or so for registered mail. Or the UK (and the rest of the
EU) that charge about $5 for postage and registered mail.



> US postal rates are also quite low, which may make it more difficult for 
> them to negotiate a revenue sharing agreement with higher cost 
> organizations. 

No, they are rediculously high. Much more than an other postal service
for international mail, they also have a very high theft rate, and will
not insure their packages. 

As for rates, everyone pays the same rate by international treaty. So the
eBay vendor in central China that pays a few dollars to send his package
is paying the Israel post office the same amount to deliver my mail as
the vendor from the US that pays $16 for the same size package. 

The profit/cost above it goes to their national post offices.

It's like cellular roaming rates. I pay .73 NIS ($.20US) per minue to call 
on my cell phone from all over europe back to Israel, or to the US.

Someone with a US company can easily pay $3 for the same call, BUT their
cellular company paid the local company the same amount as mine did for
taking the call and forwarding it over international long distance
lines.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
"Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play
chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician."
(sent to me by a friend)

On 10/06/2012 12:49 PM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> The logistics companies give you one
>> tracking number that works anywhere in the world, whereas the post
>> offices all generate confusion and duplicated numbers that make it very
>> hard to establish whether something got delivered, and if not, where it
>> went.
>>
>
> Registered mail uses one tracking number worldwide too. It's R, a letter,
> a fixed length string of numbers and the country code. I can track a
> letter or package sent registered mail from almost any country on
> 17track.net, several other similar sites, and once it is here on the
> Israel postal site.
>
> The problem with the US is that they send regular international mail
> using a tracking number with an L at the begining, and those are
> tracked as far as the first post office the sender drops them off at.
>
> Occasionally they are tracked to a sorting center, but not always, and usually
> not.
>
> Several years ago the USPS restructured their rates for mail outside of the
> US. They dropped surface mail, replacing it with an air mail system that
> takes almost as long. I have had packages take 6 weeks to arrive here airmail
> from the US.
>
> They did a survey of prices of the courier services, and simply charge 1/2
> of what the courier services do. If you want registered mail, they charge
> another $12 or so for it.

Sounds like a bargain to me.  Very few other organizations would leave 
money on the table like that.  I sure wouldn't.  Would you?

>
> Compare that to China which charges a few dollars to send a package, and
> another dollar or so for registered mail. Or the UK (and the rest of the
> EU) that charge about $5 for postage and registered mail.

Plus they save on duty by claiming that everything is a gift.  Such 
generous folks, those Chinese.

>
>> US postal rates are also quite low, which may make it more difficult for
>> them to negotiate a revenue sharing agreement with higher cost
>> organizations.
>
> No, they are rediculously high. Much more than an other postal service
> for international mail, they also have a very high theft rate, and will
> not insure their packages.

Dunno.  I don't ship a lot of stuff overseas, so that's quite possible. 
  However, they're terrific domestically.

>
> As for rates, everyone pays the same rate by international treaty. So the
> eBay vendor in central China that pays a few dollars to send his package
> is paying the Israel post office the same amount to deliver my mail as
> the vendor from the US that pays $16 for the same size package.
>
> The profit/cost above it goes to their national post offices.

What treaties are those, and do they guarantee the same rates for everyone?

>
> It's like cellular roaming rates. I pay .73 NIS ($.20US) per minue to call
> on my cell phone from all over europe back to Israel, or to the US.
>
> Someone with a US company can easily pay $3 for the same call, BUT their
> cellular company paid the local company the same amount as mine did for
> taking the call and forwarding it over international long distance
> lines.

Depends what's important to you, of course.  Mostly when I'm in Europe I 
do my calling over wifi using UMA, so it costs the same as at home.  But 
I only go there every couple of years.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

T wrote:
> In article <k4jdel$cb4$2@reversiblemaps.ath.cx>, jasen@xnet.co.nz
> says...
>>
>> On 2012-10-02, jim stone <tgh6h56nzh@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we
>>> got mobile phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router,
>>> and use it as an internet radio.
>>>
>>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are
>>> using it to play *all-day* background classical music through an
>>> amplifier and speakers.
>>>
>>> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are
>>> wondering if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going
>>> to shorten its working life ?
>>
>> It may be bad for the battery
>
> My favorite apps on my phone:
>
> TuneIn, Pandora, ScannerRadioPro, EchoLink and RepeaterBook.
>
> And that's kind of why I got the extended battery pack for the phone.
>
Another you might like:
Solent radio on the net
http://www.ship-tracking.co.uk/Radio/radiopage.html

Steve Terry
-- 
Get a free GiffGaff PAYG Sim and �5 bonus after activation at:
http://giffgaff.com/orders/affiliate/gfourwwk 

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Sounds like a bargain to me.  Very few other organizations would leave 
> money on the table like that.  I sure wouldn't.  Would you?

It depends upon wat you consider a fair price and what you want people to do.
If you want people from the US to NOT export cheap items then you keep your
postal rates high. 

If you want everyone to have a small business selling items over the internet
then you keep your postal prices low. 

> Plus they save on duty by claiming that everything is a gift.  Such 
> generous folks, those Chinese.

The only gift is to the customs officers receiving the packages. If it is
a gift and the price is low, then they can pass it without inspection, and
if it is inspected just look for the diamonds, guns, drugs, etc hidden
in it. 

For example,  just ordered about several each of 10 different items 
(around 40 items in all), from a vendor in Hong Kong. If he sent it to a 
US address and lists it as a gift, the US customs can do a quick inspection
if they do any at all. 

If he declares each item, and they inspect the package, they have to figure
out which is which, measure and weigh them and ascertain that they are
what is claimed, and the weight matches. 

In this case most of the items were some some sort of USB fob, so good luck.

> What treaties are those, and do they guarantee the same rates for everyone?

They are international postal treaties and the guarantee the same rates
between signatories. Or in plain English, each country pays the other
the same rates, but are free to charge their internal customers anything
they want. 

>
> Depends what's important to you, of course.  Mostly when I'm in Europe I 
> do my calling over wifi using UMA, so it costs the same as at home.  But 
> I only go there every couple of years.

Assuming you can find WiFi. Some places think free wifi is a right, others
charge you high rates for it.

Geoff.


-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
"Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play
chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician."
(sent to me by a friend)

On 10/06/2012 03:34 PM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Sounds like a bargain to me.  Very few other organizations would leave
>> money on the table like that.  I sure wouldn't.  Would you?
>
> It depends upon wat you consider a fair price and what you want people to do.
> If you want people from the US to NOT export cheap items then you keep your
> postal rates high.

A fair price is what a willing buyer will pay in a competitive market. 
If you were a logistics company, or for that matter a unionized 
proletarian, you charge what the traffic will bear.  That works as long 
as there's competition--the more the better in general.  You can't keep 
jacking up the price if your customers can just go down the street to 
your competitor.

>
> If you want everyone to have a small business selling items over the internet
> then you keep your postal prices low.

If you want to have economic efficiency, you avoid state enterprises and 
subsidies except where there's a compelling interest at stake--for 
instance the French pay more for food because they in effect subsidize 
small farmers, in order to keep the life of rural France alive.  I'm 
quite fond of rural France, so I can understand their point.

Postal services?  Well, sure, folks in the boonies need to be able to 
send in their tax returns. ;)

>
>> Plus they save on duty by claiming that everything is a gift.  Such
>> generous folks, those Chinese.
>
> The only gift is to the customs officers receiving the packages. If it is
> a gift and the price is low, then they can pass it without inspection, and
> if it is inspected just look for the diamonds, guns, drugs, etc hidden
> in it.
>
> For example,  just ordered about several each of 10 different items
> (around 40 items in all), from a vendor in Hong Kong. If he sent it to a
> US address and lists it as a gift, the US customs can do a quick inspection
> if they do any at all.
>
> If he declares each item, and they inspect the package, they have to figure
> out which is which, measure and weigh them and ascertain that they are
> what is claimed, and the weight matches.

They say it's a gift regardless of how much it costs.

>
> In this case most of the items were some some sort of USB fob, so good luck.
>
>> What treaties are those, and do they guarantee the same rates for everyone?
>
> They are international postal treaties and the guarantee the same rates
> between signatories. Or in plain English, each country pays the other
> the same rates, but are free to charge their internal customers anything
> they want.

Do you have a link?  I'd be interested to have a look.

>
>>
>> Depends what's important to you, of course.  Mostly when I'm in Europe I
>> do my calling over wifi using UMA, so it costs the same as at home.  But
>> I only go there every couple of years.
>
> Assuming you can find WiFi. Some places think free wifi is a right, others
> charge you high rates for it.

Generally the places I've stayed have had free or at least cheap wifi. 
That's in Flanders, Artois, and Florence, most recently.  And anyway, 
since I'm on vacation when I go there, I don't really want to be in 
constant touch with home!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> 
> In article <epudnWDGL-LfiO3NnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@supernews.com>,
>    Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> > > The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier
> > > when we would just put in the post. Tending to happen in the UK also
> > > even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service
> > > and of course do not charge extra to send further. There has been a
> > > big campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra
> > > for many postcode areas.
> 
> > That's mostly a business etiquette thing, I think.  Sending somebody a
> > bunch of business documents in the snail mail sort of says that their
> > input isn't that urgent.  Letter mail here is also very secure IME.
> 
> Fine if 'they' want to do this and pay for it. My complaint is buying
> goods from the US where I'm paying the P&P and not having the choice of a
> reasonably priced service. Why would I want to pay in some cases more than
> the value of the goods for postage, if I'm in no rush to receive them?


   Have you ever tried to mail a thousand+ packages a week?  A local non
profit group had a post office refuse their business, because of the
volume.  they had to get a politician involved, since USPS is the only
way they are allowed to ship the gifts to our troops.  Over $100,000 a
year in postal fees, and were told to go away.  By law, they can't ship
a box full of stuff to a base.  Each package requires a separate customs
form to be filled out by hand.


   UPS and other shippers park an empty semi trailer at the dock of
large customers, and haul it directly to the hub.  That entire process
can be automated.

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:

>> Plus they save on duty by claiming that everything is a gift.  Such 
>> generous folks, those Chinese.
> 
> The only gift is to the customs officers receiving the packages. If it is
> a gift and the price is low, then they can pass it without inspection, and
> if it is inspected just look for the diamonds, guns, drugs, etc hidden
> in it. 
> 
For import to the UK, declaring it as a gift increases the value that is 
allowed before VAT and duty is imposed, so, when used for items of low 
value, but more than £15 (at the moment) including postage, it defrauds 
the government of revenue.  These are not, I believe free allowances, 
but rather values below which it is considered not worth recovering 
duty.  With the Royal Mail, it also triggers a customs processing charge.

In article <slrnk711mn.97e.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>,
   Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> It depends upon wat you consider a fair price and what you want people
> to do. If you want people from the US to NOT export cheap items then you
> keep your postal rates high. 

That was the point I was trying to make. And it applies to not so cheap
items too.

-- 
*i souport publik edekashun.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2012-10-06, MB <MB@nospam.nospam> wrote:
>
> The Americans do seem generally to be used to sending a lot by courier 
> when we would just put in the post.  Tending to happen in the UK also 
> even though the Royal Mail / Parcelforce often give a better service and 
> of course do not charge extra to send further.  There has been a big 
> campaign in the North of Scotland about companies charging extra for 
> many postcode areas.

Digi-Key sent me (in NZ) a postcard by royal mail (from UK) the other day.
if it's still in the waste bassket on monday it'll check to see if it's a
preferred spelling thing (eg: "catalog" vs "catalogue") or perhaps it was
just cheaper to do it that way.

-- 
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

On 2012-10-06, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
> Several years ago the USPS restructured their rates for mail outside of the
> US. They dropped surface mail, replacing it with an air mail system that
> takes almost as long. I have had packages take 6 weeks to arrive here airmail
> from the US.
>
> They did a survey of prices of the courier services, and simply charge 1/2
> of what the courier services do. If you want registered mail, they charge
> another $12 or so for it.
>
> Compare that to China which charges a few dollars to send a package, and 
> another dollar or so for registered mail. Or the UK (and the rest of the
> EU) that charge about $5 for postage and registered mail.

Chinas international mail is heavily subsided. <hearsay> I've heard that 
it's so heavilty subsidised that in some cases they pay the sender
</hearsay>.  while doing the same in the USA would probably help small 
exporters (and therefore the balance of payments) I can't see the 
republican party getting behind subsidising a "state run monopoly".

-- 
⚂⚃ 100% natural

Jasen Betts wrote:
> Chinas international mail is heavily subsided. <hearsay> I've heard that 
> it's so heavilty subsidised that in some cases they pay the sender
></hearsay>.  while doing the same in the USA would probably help small 
> exporters (and therefore the balance of payments) I can't see the 
> republican party getting behind subsidising a "state run monopoly".

Isn't  the USPS already a state run monopoly which is subsidised?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Postal_Service>

Note that it says that the USPS has not DIRECTLY received taxpayer funds
since the 1980's.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
"Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play
chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician."
(sent to me by a friend)