🚀 go-pugleaf

"Motorists Advocate J.H.P" <jpkt@wxc.com.au> wrote in message
news:967q8i$6sl$1@perki.connect.com.au...
>
> "sanjian"
> > > > Ok, just because you have a stupid law all over your country doesn't
make it
> > > > right.
> > >
> > > Greetings Sanjian,
> > > The same law is applied throughout Europe, generally for the 'right'
of
> > > course.  A similar law operates in New Zealand South Africa etc.
> More...
> >
> > Just because it's employed elsewhere doesn't make it right.
>
> Sure, on the face of it, but this law is proven to work, hence it is
adopted
> by many countries to aid traffic flow and to improve road safety which
> benefits from fewer crashes - because of fewer unnecessary lane changes.
>
> Speed managment and enforcment of course remains the in realm of police.
>
> Lane discipline is vital.  In this environment driver enjoyment of the
task
> is improved, since one knows what is expected of themselves.

I wouln't say vital.  We seem to get along quite well over here without it.
I think few, if any major pile ups are as a result of poor "lane
discipline".  Other larger factors, such as drunken driver, or inept drivers
are more of a problem.

> > > > > Sitting in the middle lane/s of an otherwise empty freeway is just
plain bad
> > > > > driving, poor lane discipline.
> > > >
> > > > For no particular reason, other than your own prejudices in the
matter.
> > >
> > > The reasons are many and have bugger all to do with my personal
prejudices
> > > sir!  In countries which have high freeway speed limits the correct
lane
> > > discipline helps in the overall traffic flow.  That flow is improved,
> > > drivers know what is expected of them and most behave accordingly.
> > >
> > > Believe me it works.  Please, take a holiday in France, visit Germany,
> > > Belgium, Luxemborg and see 'it' - in practice.  Better still, come to
> > > Australia we are more than happy to take your money!
> >
> > Been to Spain, and I wasn't terribly impressed with the system.  Though
I'd
> > love to go to Australia.  Maybe if my ship ever goes that way (I wish).
>
> Spain is an EU state however it has a long way to go to catch up with
those
> other EU partners I mention above in the road safety and road use stakes.
>
> Simplistically, it is improving rapidly though and needs an increased
share
> of EU transport infrastructure development costs.
>
>
> > > > Over regulating driving isn't the answer.
> > >
> > > Mate, I agree it's just this particular law has widespread public
support,
> > > it actually aids driving and reduces nervous tension, road rage - call
it
> > > what you will.
> >
> > Not widespread public support, just among the politicians, who have lost
> > touch with the people long ago.
>
> This is a 'very' common feeling throughout the western world, happens at a
> time of globalization, does this surprise you?  I would guess not.

Globalization is part of the problem.  The average American (especially in
the south) is about as eager to be Europeanized as the average European is
to be Americanized.  Don't try to tell me France and Greece are rushing
forward to embrace America (in Greece, many pubs have signs on the door
stating that Americans are not served).

> The public support is there, it is EU law passed by state (country)

Two points:

1)  The public support may be there in Europe, but not here in Virginia.
2)  EU law has no jurisdiction here.

> parliaments and in may other jurisdictions worldwide.  The law literally
> applies to hundreds of millions of drivers worldwide outside the U.S and
> with good reason, it has nothing to with some authoritarian control BTW,
it
> simply makes road sense.

I fail to see the advantages.

> The thing is, I don't see more regulation
> > in this matter helping, but rather take some of the judgement out of the
> > hands of the driver.
>
> Arguable sure, what about merely posting the "keep right unless passing"
> signs as an 'advisory'?  Some countries do this for a few years and if
> deemeed necessary later back it up with legislation.  This methology
relies
> on the goodwill and commonsense of drivers.

The question is, should it have the force of law?  If some drivers aren't
maintianing good "lane discipline", is that a severe problem, requiring
legislation?

> While some may argue that some drivers haven't shown
> > the ability to excersise judgement, it is necessary to keep the decision
> > making process on the road, as opposed to letting Richmond make the
> > decisions.
>
> I am very sympathetic of course to this, it is just that on this
particular
> issue however and by my own world experiences,- are that this particular
law
> has worked, and is working in those jurisdictions that adopt it.

It's hard to judge whether or not it works.  I could say that the
requirement to wear seat belts has worked to prevent accidents, since there
are fewer than ten majore pile ups in Hampton Roads per day, but that really
doesn't say anything.

> (Richmond is the capital of the Commonwealth of Virginia, BTW)
>
> I am a foreigner, however I know this sir.  In fact I was taught this when
> attending Primary school in a country called Papua New Guinea of all
places,
> just north of Australia, not far from the Solomon Islands where thousands
of
> US service personnel lost their lives fighting the Japanese in various
> bloody campaigns back in WWII.

^^;;;;  Why would they teach the capitals of the states?  I mean, I can see
the capital of the U.S., but each state?  Unless you're actually in an
American school, it seems a bit odd.

> > > > I'd be right pissed if I'm crawling at 30mph on the right lane, and
the
> > left is open.
> > >
> > > Eh???
> > > The point is the law 'allows' you to then use the left lane, SINCE you
will
> > > OBVIOUSLY be passing that slower traffic Sanjian.  It is NOT intended
to
> > > force you to 'have' to drive slowly in the right lane, this would be
> > > counterproductive.
> >
> > The problem is, when the row of slow cars extends for a few miles with
both
> > lanes open, it's bound to extend farther with only one lane as a driving
> > lane, and the other as the passing lane.
>
> The 'keep right unless passing' laws would only be enforced during light
to
> moderate traffic conditions, this is what happens everywhere else.  No one
> has been fined for keeping left during times of traffic congestion, this
> would be lunacy.

I see no provision for that in the bill as drafted.

> Even if it doesn't, I'm going to
> > be passing for a few miles at a time.  I'm not sure this is what's
> intended.
>
> Sure, you get this sometimes, it is compounded when slower 'right' lane
> traffic pulls out to pass adding to the left lane congestion, however
given
> a 24 hour clock, this scenario is certainly valid but is not the majority
> condition.  I appreciate your concern and would not be overly concerned
with
> it.

Not the majority condition, but it is the situation when it counts the most.

> > > The law is intended to stop drivers from blocking all lanes
> simultaneously
> > > when traffic lanes are otherwize relatively clear.  It is deemed that
> the
> >
> > If traffic is relatively clear, then there is no real need for the law.
> > I've never had a problem getting to the lane I need to. It takes a
little
> > skill, but even in heavier traffic, one can get around the one assinine
> car.
>
> This would indicate more than necessary lane changes, a slalom in and out
of
> slower traffic if you will.  The outside world has discovered that
> encouraging correct, or improved lane discipline by legislating that those
> drivers who have a clear right lane be made to move into it,- reduces the
> incidence of crashes, the flow on is improved overall traffic flow as a
> result of the reduction of those preventable crashes and because the
> comprehension among drivers is as 'one'.

I don't really have to slalom in traffic, and I routinely go ten to fifteen
miles above (since VA still has a speed limit of 55 mph).

> I make a point, that some countries (Australia is one) allows drivers to
> pass in marked lanes despite the 'keep right unless passing' signs, if a
> faster traffic is 'forced' or coerced into doing this, the driver causing
> the 'block' is certainly fined and will lose points.
>
> The blocking offence is considered one of the most annoying and
potentially
> dangerous activities a motorists can do to others as often reported in
> polls, this poll 'response' is why the penalities for not keeping left
> (right in the USA) are on the increase downunder.

That is a separate issue that needs to be taken care of.  It makes no sense
to correct it with a law to restrict lanes.  That doesn't address the source
of the problem.

> > > left lane (US) is the lane drivers should make a practice of getting
out
> > > of - once they have passed other traffic.  If traffic is heavy, you
may keep
> > > using the left lane, just make a practice of moving to the right if an
> > > obvious faster vehicle comes up behind you, IF you have the safe space
to do
> > > so, otherwize the faster driver will have to wait - a little, till you
can
> > > get back into the right lane.
> >
> > The way it's currently viewed is that the left lane is the fast lane.
If
> > you're in it, you better not be being passed.
>
> Some call it the 'fast lane', merely a descriptive term.  You see, take
this
> example, if you were in Germany on a freeway with three lanes of travel in
> each direction with little traffic flow, you, regardless of your speed are
> required to keep to the rightmost lane, you may then merge to the centre
> lane to opass those vehicles in the right lane, once you are clear of them
> you signal back again!

The way the German freeways work does not change the fact that the left lane
is viewed as the fast lane in the U.S.

> The 'keep right unless passing' signs come into particular play as traffic
> builds, where you may then use the right (passing) lane to pass that
middle
> lane traffic, flow is encouraged by keeping a 'through' lane and
encouraging
> drivers to use it properly.  It takes time for drivers to adapt, they will
> do so given time and experience.

Of course, people will adapt to anything, the beasts.

> My point being that 'fast lane' is perhaps a bit of a misnomer, since one
> should keep right regardless of speed, only moving out when the need
arises.

You say should, but it has yet to be proven.  You're looking at this from
the European perspective.  In the U.S., many places don't suscribe to that
view.

> This in fact is perhaps a devious form of speed control, you accelerate
> between lengths of vehicles as opposed to flying past them at speed in the
> adjacent lane.  A clever German speed managment method.

If you think it's better to accelerate between vehicles, as opposed to
maintaining a higher steady speed.  I don't.

> An obvious issue is that with some U.S freeway you have olde style left
lane
> exits!!  This is engineering criminality to my mind:-)
>
> Here, 'keep right unless passing' signs should perhaps not be posted at
this
> point until the subject exit - is reconstructed to the right as it always
> should be.  This is a lesson in modern roads engineering.

Some areas can't accomadate that change.

> Any future U.S freeway projects with right lane exits must be prevented
from
> being constructed until plans are upgraded to right lane exits.

Did that come out right?

> > > Your argument about the requirement for the additional traffic lanes
> > Hampton
> > > Roads Bridge Tunnel really is a separate issue, I agree you need those
> > > additional lanes, here for the moment the law applies only when the
> > traffic
> > > is lite (light) it does not apply and therefore would not be enforced
> > during
> > > times of traffic congestion.
> >
> > Unfortuantly, the two cannot be separated.  As long as we continue not
to
> > have sufficient lanes, restricting access to some will only compound the
> > problem.
>
> Does not apply.  The signs or legislation would "not" make it an offence
> where or when the lanes are congested. I say again by experience it is not
> an issue really.

No, your legislation doesn't.

> > > I suspect there may be a misunderstanding about the "keep right unless
> > > passing" signage and practice.
> > >
> > > Give it a few years (for drivers to learn and adopt) and you will see
an
> > > improvement in traffic discipline with the 'keep right unless passing'
> > > practice.  I'll guarantee that one and I reckon I'll make a convert
out of
> > > you:-)
> >
> > Maybe with some improvements to the roads, but as it is now, it will
just
> > tie the Hampton Roads area into a knot.
>
> The bigger statewide picture, indeed country picture should come into play
> for the greater national good, saved dollars.  Might sound like a
> centralized grab, I don't mean it to be - since small localities can
benefit
> from the practice of 'keep right unless passing'.

Again, I see the benefits as dubious.  Anyways, the greater good be damned.
There's a reason we leave decisions up to the most local government we can.
They're the ones who can best judge whether or not the law is appropriate to
their area.

There's also the lingering American sentiment against new laws (at least, in
the older generation, the younger crowd is just as willing to sell their
freedom as the Europeans).  If we're going to put restrictions on people,
then there better be a danged good reason.  I don't see the benefits of your
"lane discipline" as being all that great.

Instead of herding competent drivers like single file sheep, we need to take
care of people like the one driver I was behind, who couldn't decide on a
lane, so he just took both.  *That's* the type of lane discipline we need.

--

sanjian@wido(you know the drill)maker.com
http://www.widomaker.com/~sanjain
President P.A.C.  Order of the Mallet
----------------------------------------------------------

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