🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1992Oct27.110112.1017@beckman.com>, dsroberts@beckman.com writes:
[...]
> So I would like to ask that a newsgroup called
> 
> vmsnet.decus.journal
> 
[...]
> 
> Please comment on this request and let me know what the result is. 
> 
Well, I've seen no comments to the list.  I've received one yes in the mail. 
Terry, can we do this?
-- 
   Don Roberts                   Internet:  dsroberts@beckman.com
           NOTE NEW ADDRESS-----------------^^^^^^^^^
   Beckman Instruments, Inc.     Phone:     714/961-3029
   2500 Harbor Bl. Mailstop X-12 FAX:       714/961-3351
   Fullerton, CA  92634          Disclaimer:  Blame me, not Beckman.
   So, how many hospitals HAVE been built by organizations of secular
   humanists and atheists, anyway?

In article <1992Oct30.073321.1024@beckman.com>, dsroberts@beckman.com writes:
> In article <1992Oct27.110112.1017@beckman.com>, dsroberts@beckman.com writes:
> [...]
>> So I would like to ask that a newsgroup called
>> 
>> vmsnet.decus.journal
>> 
> [...]
>> 
>> Please comment on this request and let me know what the result is. 
>> 
> Well, I've seen no comments to the list.  I've received one yes in the mail. 
> Terry, can we do this?

Well, we might want to bring comp.org.decus in on this discussion, to avoid
the whole vmsnet.decus.lugs pouting that went on there after the fact.  If
there's enough support for a comp.org.decus.journal, we might want to go
through the hassles of trying it as a usenet group, esp. if a lot of people
will get their nose out of joint by having to read it in a group that has
the letters "VMS" in it.

I personally think a vmsnet group would be fine, but I hadn't realized
how many VMS-phobic people there were until the .lugs group discussion.
Chances are that UNISIG articles wouldn't get the propagation to their
audience that they'd get with comp.org.decus.journal.
--
Harry Flowers                           Internet: FLOWERS@MEMSTVX1.MEMST.EDU
Memphis State University                & Bitnet: FLOWERS@MEMSTVX1

In article <1992Oct30.110133.3918@memstvx1.memst.edu>, flowers@memstvx1.memst.edu (Harry Flowers) writes:
> Well, we might want to bring comp.org.decus in on this discussion, to avoid
> the whole vmsnet.decus.lugs pouting that went on there after the fact.  If
> there's enough support for a comp.org.decus.journal, we might want to go
> through the hassles of trying it as a usenet group, esp. if a lot of people
> will get their nose out of joint by having to read it in a group that has
> the letters "VMS" in it.
> 
We (DECUServe executive committee) would prefer vmsnet in this case.  First, we
don't want to wait for a usenet group.  Second, DECUServe is primarily a VMS
service (sure, we offer unix and pc stuff, but our world revolves around VMS). 
Third, we feel our primary audience is in the vmsnet community.  Forth,
DECUServe, as a DECUS entity, has already committed to support of this
distribution method should it be acceptable to the vmsnet community.

If there is a political problem with using the vmsnet.decus hierarchy,
vmsnet.decuserve.journal would be fine.  Should Joel's newsletter project get
off the ground, we may want to shift our distribution to there, or continue
with vmsnet as well.  The DECUServe executive committee wants to "fit" the
Internet culture.  We are quite aware of the tendency of DECUS leadership to
want to do it their way, but, as long as I'm on XCOM, we won't be doing that.

Just as an aside.  We now have anu-news running on DECUServe, but we're 
resolving the political issues before making it available to our subscribers.  
Then you'll start seeing more people from DECUServe here.  Hopefully we'll be
making it more transparent extracting and importing between vmsnet and
DECUServe.  The Management Council has stated that they want to be a player in
the Internet community and we (DECUServe) have taken that as a mandate to
further our own efforts in that direction.  Of course, this is all on DECUS
time, so it could take a while :-(
-- 
   Don Roberts                   Internet:  dsroberts@beckman.com
           NOTE NEW ADDRESS-----------------^^^^^^^^^
   Beckman Instruments, Inc.     Phone:     714/961-3029
   2500 Harbor Bl. Mailstop X-12 FAX:       714/961-3351
   Fullerton, CA  92634          Disclaimer:  Blame me, not Beckman.
   So, how many hospitals HAVE been built by organizations of secular
   humanists and atheists, anyway?

In article <1992Oct30.110133.3918@memstvx1.memst.edu>, flowers@memstvx1.memst.edu (Harry Flowers) writes:
> Well, we might want to bring comp.org.decus in on this discussion, to avoid
> the whole vmsnet.decus.lugs pouting that went on there after the fact.  If
> there's enough support for a comp.org.decus.journal, we might want to go
> through the hassles of trying it as a usenet group, esp. if a lot of people
> will get their nose out of joint by having to read it in a group that has
> the letters "VMS" in it.

Just to put this to rest real fast.  Unlike the previous issue the request is 
coming from the National Committee responsible for this by their 
representative.  The past example does _not_ apply in this case.

-- 
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter NLC Chair | Email:killeen@eisner.decus.org

DECUS is for folks who are responsible for bring computing to the desktop.
The NLC is the national council for DECUS's Local User Groups - come join us!

In article <1992Oct27.110112.1017@beckman.com>, dsroberts@beckman.com writes:
>So I would like to ask that a newsgroup called
>
>vmsnet.decus.journal
>
>be created for this purpose.  We would like it moderated so that any replies
>can be processed by the journal editor before posting to the newsgroup.

This sounds perfectly acceptable to me. (Sorry for the delay, I was out of town
much of last week.)

I agree with Jeff Killeen that since this is a request from DECUServe, there's
no reason for us to bend over backwards to re-fight the VMS vs. everyone else
naming battles. Don's list of reasons for coming here tell me that DECUServe is
aware of the alternatives, has considered them, and has chosen VMSnet. If other
units of DECUS have a problem with this, they'll have to take it up with
DECUServe. Last time the flap was because we as a community made a decision that
many felt undercut relevant portions of DECUS. That is clearly not the case
here. People may complain, but if they complain to us, they are talking to the
wrong people. 

DECUServe knows their business better than I do, so what right do I have to
question their decision? We only have to decide whether to grant the request or
not. Don has made it clear that they may move the journal to a new home if
circumstances warrant, so if they decide this was a bad decision, they'll fix
it. In either case, we are merely being asked to provide a place for the
Journal.

I think we should. I'll wait a bit to see if there are any objections.

I guess the only thing I wonder is whether vmsnet.decus.journal is sufficiently
descriptive. On the other hand, given that we've got vmsnet.decus.lugs, I'd hate
to add a vmsnet.decuserve.* subtree, and vmsnet.decus.decuserve.journal seems
unwarranted, unless more decus and/or decuserve groups get created. On balance,
it seems to me that the proposed name is the best compromise, with the caveat
that we may someday need to change the name to differentiate among various decus
activites, or to collect various decuserve activities, in either case by
renaming the group to vmsnet.decus.decuserve.journal.

Don, creating a moderated group is a little more work, and takes a little
longer, because I have to coordinate with Gene Spafford. Please send me the
address that will be used to submit articles, and "administrative" address that
will reach the moderator, and the moderator's actual name. Spaf needs this info
to update the various periodic postings, and won't set up the posting aliases
till he gets it. The group can not actually become active until the aliases are
installed in all participating backbone groups.

(Note to ANU users, it is neither necessary or desirable for you to add the
group and moderator address to your mailpaths file, or with a set
newsgroup/moderator=xxx command, contrary to anything that the documentation
might say. Set up your mailpaths file as described in the monthly posting to
news.announce.newusers just once and then forget about the whole thing. That's
what moderator aliases are for.)
--
Terry Poot <tp@mccall.com>                   The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!rutgers!depot!mccall!tp)          615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in KS (913)776-4041           Manhattan, KS 66502, USA

In article <1992Nov2.130646@mccall.com>, tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
[...]
>Don's list of reasons for coming here tell me that DECUServe is
> aware of the alternatives, has considered them, and has chosen VMSnet. If other
> units of DECUS have a problem with this, they'll have to take it up with
> DECUServe. Last time the flap was because we as a community made a decision that
> many felt undercut relevant portions of DECUS. That is clearly not the case
> here. People may complain, but if they complain to us, they are talking to the
> wrong people. 

I suppose vmsnet was chosen partly because I'm the only one on XCOM that knows
about the v.d.l flap :-) and I chose not to bring it up in the discussion.  
Though I suggested comp.org.decus, Joel Snyder actually recommended a new 
group in vmsnet as a better choice.  He recommended vmsnet.decus.dsjournal, but
I feel that is too obscure for a name, and, as there is no other decus journal,
we're not stepping on anyones toes.  Since Jeff has now posted that this should
not be a problem, and Jeff, through MC, is our boss, if they complain to
DECUServe they're complaining to the wrong people as well ;-)
> 
> I think we should. I'll wait a bit to see if there are any objections.

Thanks for your support, Terry.
> 
> On balance, it seems to me that the proposed name is the best compromise, 
> with the caveat that we may someday need to change the name to differentiate 
> among various decus activites, or to collect various decuserve activities, 
> in either case by renaming the group to vmsnet.decus.decuserve.journal.
> 
That's about what went through my head on this.  We discussed and rejected
asking for DECUServe newsgroups at this time, and it doesn't sound like that's
likely to change - why duplicate a working structure?  Another thought that
went through my mind when I decided this was the best name is that Joels
project* to restart the DECUS newsletters may well fit into that newsgroup as
one of its distribution routes.  We'll have to see what Joel thinks about that
:-).

> Don, creating a moderated group is a little more work, and takes a little
> longer, because I have to coordinate with Gene Spafford. Please send me the
> address that will be used to submit articles, and "administrative" address that
> will reach the moderator, and the moderator's actual name. 

Having only dealt with adding moderated newsgroups to my news server, I really
have no idea what is involved with setting up a moderated newsgroup.  Is it
normal to have a different address for submitting articles than an
administrative address, and if so, what is the nature of the difference?

*Joel is DECUS managing editor of the now defunct newsletters.  He has now
initiated a project to resurrect a more viable newsletter.  He has asked to use
DECUServe resources as the development platform for the new newsletter, and
we've agreed to support this.
-- 
   Don Roberts                   Internet:  dsroberts@beckman.com
           NOTE NEW ADDRESS-----------------^^^^^^^^^
   Beckman Instruments, Inc.     Phone:     714/961-3029
   2500 Harbor Bl. Mailstop X-12 FAX:       714/961-3351
   Fullerton, CA  92634          Disclaimer:  Blame me, not Beckman.
   So, how many hospitals HAVE been built by organizations of secular
   humanists and atheists, anyway?

In article <1992Nov2.133232.1027@beckman.com>, dsroberts@beckman.com writes:
>> Don, creating a moderated group is a little more work, and takes a little
>> longer, because I have to coordinate with Gene Spafford. Please send me the
>> address that will be used to submit articles, and "administrative" address
>> that will reach the moderator, and the moderator's actual name. 
>
>Having only dealt with adding moderated newsgroups to my news server, I really
>have no idea what is involved with setting up a moderated newsgroup.  Is it
>normal to have a different address for submitting articles than an
>administrative address, and if so, what is the nature of the difference?

Typically, there are 2 different addresses. One is for sending articles, and one
is for traffic about the group, but not submitted to the group. In practical
terms, the submission address is generally an alias rather than a person's email
address, so that it can be easily redirected, e.g. to a fill-in moderator while
the moderator is away, of upon a change of moderator. This is the address that
will actually be used for the net-wide moderator alias. 

The administrative, or request, address should go to the person responsible for
the group. This is almost always the moderator, but, for instance, it probably
wouldn't be reassigned when the moderator went on vaction. One reason for making
these separate is that the moderator can more easily distinguish submissions to
the group from articles not meant to be submitted. 

Mailing list conventions are often used. For example, the submission address
might be:

dsjournal@eisner.decus.org

whereas the administrative address might be

dsjournal-request@eisner.decus.org

These would also be convenient if you decided to set up a mailing list as an
alternate mechanism, as these would be appropriate conventions. It is also
reasonable to use the moderator's actual email address for the administrative
address.

Quite frankly, spaf is the one who wants this info, and these are really my
guesses as to what the info means to him, but we have to provide it to get the
aliases set up. :-)

>*Joel is DECUS managing editor of the now defunct newsletters.  He has now
>initiated a project to resurrect a more viable newsletter.  He has asked to
>use
>DECUServe resources as the development platform for the new newsletter, and
>we've agreed to support this.

I've also told him VMSnet would be interested in working with him, as
appropriate. And I've also sent mail to Larry Snyder regarding the PageSwapper,
as there is no question but that it is relevant to VMSnet! I just got my last
issue of the newsletter yesterday. *sniff*
--
Terry Poot <tp@mccall.com>                   The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!rutgers!depot!mccall!tp)          615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in KS (913)776-4041           Manhattan, KS 66502, USA

In article <1992Nov2.130646@mccall.com>, tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Oct27.110112.1017@beckman.com>, dsroberts@beckman.com writes:
>>So I would like to ask that a newsgroup called
>>
>>vmsnet.decus.journal
>>
>>be created for this purpose.  We would like it moderated so that any replies
>>can be processed by the journal editor before posting to the newsgroup.
> 
> This sounds perfectly acceptable to me. (Sorry for the delay, I was out of town
> much of last week.)
> 
 one vote FOR the new group...
	as i do not have access to DECUSserv, this would be a great help
to me...

					...rew
-- 
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   Richard Wiseman		 VAX-VMS Crafts Person
   MONSANTO	                Internet:  Rewise@musctn.monsanto.com
   RR #5 Wiggins Rd.             Yellnet:  +1 (319)262-7528 or 262-7339
   BOX 473                           FAX:  +1 (319)262-5626
   Muscatine, Ia 52761        Disclaimer:  All opinions are my own, I think
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