🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1992Oct6.082349@mccall.com>, tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
> DEC routinely posts press releases to the net in biz.dec, as well as mailing
> them to a large number of people.

It beats what I do now, which is to log into the electronic store and
download the interesting ones.

Go for it.

tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
>DEC routinely posts press releases to the net in biz.dec....

which is where they belong.  press releases usualy violate NSF
guildelines, which is why a separate hierarchy was created for them,
allowing sites who maintain strict adherenece to the guidelines to
ignore an entire hierarchy.  adding v.a.dec is probably not a problem
for NIX consotium users and commercial uucp users, but it would most
likely pose a delemma for those using BARRnet and CERFnet.

-- 
--- bob pasker
---- rbp@netcom.com

rbp@netcom.com (Bob Pasker) writes:
>tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
>>DEC routinely posts press releases to the net in biz.dec....
>which is where they belong....

one alternative is for those sites who would not be in violation of
their usage agreements to start propogating biz.dec.  biz.dec is low
enough volume that it could be carried via e-mail for those sites
whose feeds don't/won't carry it.
-- 
--- bob pasker
---- rbp@netcom.com

In article <1992Oct7.155740.10460@netcom.com>, rbp@netcom.com (Bob Pasker) writes:
> tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
>>DEC routinely posts press releases to the net in biz.dec....
> 
> which is where they belong.  press releases usualy violate NSF
> guildelines, which is why a separate hierarchy was created for them,
> allowing sites who maintain strict adherenece to the guidelines to
> ignore an entire hierarchy.  adding v.a.dec is probably not a problem
> for NIX consotium users and commercial uucp users, but it would most
> likely pose a delemma for those using BARRnet and CERFnet.

I think that it is not quite as clear cut as all that. The NSF Acceptable
Use statement says:


        THE NSFNET BACKBONE SERVICES ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY
 
 GENERAL PRINCIPLE:
 
 (1) NSFNET Backbone services are provided to support open research and
     education in and among US research and instructional institutions,
     plus research arms of for-profit firms when engaged in open
     scholarly communication and research.  Use for other purposes is
     not acceptable.
 
 SPECIFICALLY ACCEPTABLE USES:
 
[...] 
 (7) Announcements of new products or services for use in research or
     instruction, but not advertising of any kind.
[...] 
 UNACCEPTABLE USES:
 
 (10) Use for for-profit activities (consulting for pay, sales or
     administration of campus stores, sale of tickets to sports events,
     and so on) or use by for-profit institutions unless covered by the
     General Principle or as a specifically acceptable use.
 
 (11) Extensive use for private or personal business.
 
[End of excerpt]

Press releases would seem to me to be covered under point 7. If Digital,
unsolicited, started dumping press releases into a hierarchy other than
biz, that would be wrong. But, if the users of VMSNet asked, and DEC
responded in a considered manner, then I can't see any problem with it.

********************************************************************************
Saul Tannenbaum                         |
Manager, Scientific Computing           |Internet: STANNENB@HNRC.TUFTS.EDU
USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on |
    Aging at Tufts University           |
*********************** Standard Disclaimers Apply *****************************

In article <1992Oct7.135843.433@hnrc.tufts.edu>,\
 saul_sy@hnrc.tufts.edu (Saul Tannenbaum) writes...
[... some NFSnet guidelines]
> (7) Announcements of new products or services for use in research or
>     instruction, but not advertising of any kind.
[...]
> 
> Press releases would seem to me to be covered under point 7. If Digital,
> unsolicited, started dumping press releases into a hierarchy other than
> biz, that would be wrong. But, if the users of VMSNet asked, and DEC
> responded in a considered manner, then I can't see any problem with it.

     Many of the press releases are advertising ("so-and-so just signed
a multi-million dollar agreement with Digital", or product releases which
include explicit pricing details).

     I think duplicating them in the vmsnet hierarchy would be a bad idea,
but then I'm biased since our news server carries the biz hierarchy.  I
find that I only look at about one press release per month these days
anyway; most of them are just noise.

     Seems to me that this falls in the category of "belongs to an already
existing newsgroup" so is not appropriate for vmsnet.  For the record, I'm
opposed to Terry's proposal...

		Pat Rankin, rankin@eql.caltech.edu

saul_sy@hnrc.tufts.edu (Saul Tannenbaum) writes:
> UNACCEPTABLE USES:
> 
> (10) Use for for-profit activities (consulting for pay, sales or
>     administration of campus stores, sale of tickets to sports events,
>     and so on) or use by for-profit institutions unless covered by the
>     General Principle or as a specifically acceptable use.
> 
> (11) Extensive use for private or personal business.
> 
>[End of excerpt]

>Press releases would seem to me to be covered under point 7.

and under points (10) and (11).  so?  since noone has ever been
charged with violating NSF standards (usually they lock out the
indivual offender), its moot anyway.  there is no indication that NSF
is going to start cracking down.  the usage policy is has taken on the
aspects of a guideline.

> If Digital,
>unsolicited, started dumping press releases into a hierarchy other than
>biz, that would be wrong. But, if the users of VMSNet asked, and DEC
>responded in a considered manner, then I can't see any problem with it.

there is already an appropriate newsgroup dedicated for dec's press
releases, why reduplicate the effort?  if you want to get PR stuff,
then ask your upstream feed provider to send you biz.dec.  if your
feed doesnt get b.d, then get the stuff via e-mail.

the idea of having hierarchies is to segregate traffic so that
individual newsgroups don't have humongus amounts of volume and so
that people can get what they want smorgasboard-style.  rec.aviation
recently spun off _13_ subgroups because the volume had gotten so
high.  this history-l listserv just spun off 15 new lists.  the trend
is to segregate rather than amalgamate (or, in this case, duplcate).
-- 
--- bob pasker
---- rbp@netcom.com

In article <7OCT199214254033@eql.caltech.edu>, rankin@eql.caltech.edu (Pat Rankin) writes:
>      Seems to me that this falls in the category of "belongs to an already
> existing newsgroup" so is not appropriate for vmsnet.  For the record, I'm
> opposed to Terry's proposal...

I agree, and as pointed out elsewhere, other arrangements for those who really
want/need (and can't get) biz.dec can be made.

--
Mark Pizzolato - INFO COMM Computer Consulting, Redwood City, Ca
PHONE:	(415)369-9366	UUCP:  decwrl!infopiz!mark or uunet!lupine!infopiz!mark
DOMAIN:	mark@infocomm.com

rbp@netcom.com (Bob Pasker) writes (in part):
>saul_sy@hnrc.tufts.edu (Saul Tannenbaum) writes:
>> UNACCEPTABLE USES:
>> 
>> (10) Use for for-profit activities (consulting for pay, sales or
>>     administration of campus stores, sale of tickets to sports events,
>>     and so on) or use by for-profit institutions unless covered by the
>>     General Principle or as a specifically acceptable use.
>> 
>> (11) Extensive use for private or personal business.
>> 
>>[End of excerpt]
>
>>Press releases would seem to me to be covered under point 7.
>
>and under points (10) and (11).  so?  since noone has ever been
>charged with violating NSF standards (usually they lock out the
>indivual offender), its moot anyway.  there is no indication that NSF
>is going to start cracking down.  the usage policy is has taken on the
>aspects of a guideline.
>
>> If Digital,
>>unsolicited, started dumping press releases into a hierarchy other than
>>biz, that would be wrong. But, if the users of VMSNet asked, and DEC
>>responded in a considered manner, then I can't see any problem with it.
>
>there is already an appropriate newsgroup dedicated for dec's press
>releases, why reduplicate the effort?  if you want to get PR stuff,
>then ask your upstream feed provider to send you biz.dec.  if your
>feed doesnt get b.d, then get the stuff via e-mail.
[remainder deleted]
 
The key the NSF seems to use (in my opinion) is whether such data is
unsolicited or not.  Asking for a biz.??? newsfeed means the data is
solicited and I've never seen the NSF object to it.
 
I also agree that it is unnecessary to duplicate biz data in vmsnet.
I will happily provide an nntp feed to anyone who wants this or any
other newsgroup.  If you or your feed site cannot (or will not) accept
such a feed, I can also provide it via mail.
 
Mark Berryman
Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com

In article <1992Oct7.155740.10460@netcom.com>, rbp@netcom.com (Bob Pasker)
writes:
>tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
>>DEC routinely posts press releases to the net in biz.dec....
>
>which is where they belong.  press releases usualy violate NSF
>guildelines, which is why a separate hierarchy was created for them,
>allowing sites who maintain strict adherenece to the guidelines to
>ignore an entire hierarchy.  adding v.a.dec is probably not a problem
>for NIX consotium users and commercial uucp users, but it would most
>likely pose a delemma for those using BARRnet and CERFnet.

I should have thought of that, but then, I'm not on the internet myself. Anyway,
as far as I'm concerned that decides the issue. The group will not be created.
We'd be foolish to add a group to VMSnet that caused people to have to seriously
consider whether they could carry VMSnet as a whole. 

Arguments about whether the guidelines would really hold up or be enforced miss
the point. Many news managers on NSFnet follow the guidelines out of conscience,
whether their users always do or not, and so we'd be cutting our own propagation
to those sites.

Also, I'm not sure I agree about this traffic not being appropriate to the
hierarchy, but that issue is irrelevant now.

Those who contacted me saying they'd like to get the info and don't already
should consider taking Mark Berryman up on his offer of a feed, or contact their
existing feed to try and get the biz hierarchy.

Bottom line: no group. Thanks for all the input!
--
Terry Poot <tp@mccall.com>                   The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!rutgers!depot!mccall!tp)          615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in KS (913)776-4041           Manhattan, KS 66502, USA