"Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#495

Author: Patan�e Pongp�
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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There is a HUGE difference between Flying Saucers(or:M.O.C)in Europe
and in the United-States.
In Europe we have nearly no reports of the so-called "abductions".

The reason is essentially cultural because "abductions" have been
created by a money oriented society which sells anything which can be
swallowed by millions of gullible Americans.

There are many scientific reasons which preclude such things as
abductions by ETI(Extraterrestrials)but these reasons are too complex
to discuss here and,whatever their rationality,they would not convince
the purported "abductees" to believe in their fairy tales anyhow.

Succubus and incubus have been the historical ancestors of modern days
"abductees".

The first scientist who suggested that many of the
"close-encounters",etc,with M.O.C were related to dream and sleep was
astrophysicist Dr Jean-Pierre Gu�rin of the Institut
d'Astrophysique,boulevard Arago,Paris,France,in the I970's.

As a proficient "conscious dreamer" I have been able to observe,in
states which are intermediates between the waking state and
sleep,consciouness states which could,easily,be misinterpreted by
laymen full of Flying Saucers ideas in their head as anything
extraordinary.

Such states of consciousness involve the blockade of motor efferents
with a partial awakening.

When we sleep and dream our CNS blocks motor efferents so we are
prevented to experience what we experience in the
dream(endoreality)within exoreality.

For example,if I am walking in a dream the motor zones of my CNS which
activate my legs are as fully active as if I were awake.
To prevent me from walking while sleeping(a potentially catastrophic
thing!)evolution has invented a neural mechanism(which I call the
S.B.E.M)which blocks motor efferents.

This has been well studied and delineated by the famous sleep
researcher,Dr Jouvet,in Lyon,France.

It happens,sometimes,that we wake up while the SBEM is still active
and not disconnected.
The result of this is that we regain a complete or more or less
complete awareness of reality while we are completely paralysed in our
bed!

This experience is often anxiogenic.

For example I can "wake up" while still feeling paralysed and
experience auditory or visual dream hallucinations related to my fear.

For example once I walked up but still was paralysed and I "heard"
"someone" opening my door and I could feel the "presence" of the
"intruder" just next to the door(typical oneiric experience,by the
way!).

As I was not totally awake I was convinced someone had opened the door
and would come to us(my wife and I)to harm us.
So I shouted in the dream because I knew I was paralysed and I wanted
to totally wake up.

My voice could nearly not go out as I felt my mouth also paralysed.
Then,finally,I woke up!
And,of course,nobody had entered our appartment!

It was only a half-dream.

When you are in this kind of state the fear
brings,AUTOMATICALLY,memories of what you fear...

So if you are ruminating about M.O.C then you might very well dream
your flying saucer and its ETI !!!

It is as simple as that.

What has made this sleep phenomenon an irrational debacle is the
generally low level of education of average citizens in the
US,combined with a high degree of gullibility and naivete,all this
flavoured with these stupid histories of "ufonauts" tales,books,etc.

Certainly if the media would have not publicised this
misinterpretation and fuel it with absolutey grotesque movies,such as
the "X-Files",and similar series made for 7 years old kids,then we
would not have this "abduction" hysteria in the US !

We do not have "abductions" in France or nearly none!

Why?
Not because the ETI like to abduct US citizens and not French but
because our culture is different,less hollywoodian,more on the
Earth...

French are more down to earth,less gullible,and not so much prone to
mass hysteria!

So,M.O.C,that is Flying Saucers,do not come and "abduct" French while
they sleep!!!!

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#496

Author: chkcorea
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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That sleep paralysis theory is crap, it doesn't hold water.
There are people who are having totally conscious abductuctions.

You people just grab any theory thrown at you and run with it.
Succubus, incubus, it's old. I'm sick of the same old crap you
ppl keep latching onto.

The evidence on the side of the abductees is too overwelming
and you can't handle it, it scares you, so you throw things back
like sleep paralysis and Succubus and Incubus and it's CRAP!

-- 
http://www.users.ids.net/~chkcorea/s.htm

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#497

Author: chkcorea
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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That sleep paralysis theory is crap, it doesn't hold water.
There are people who are having totally conscious abductuctions.

You people just grab any theory thrown at you and run with it.
Succubus, incubus, it's old. I'm sick of the same old crap you
ppl keep latching onto.

The evidence on the side of the abductees is too overwelming
and you can't handle it, it scares you, so you throw things back
like sleep paralysis and Succubus and Incubus and it's CRAP!

-- 
http://www.users.ids.net/~chkcorea/s.htm

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#498

Author: Lorne D. Gilsig
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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Dear Patan�e Pongp�,

Maybe aliens just don't like Europeans, or they can't afford the season
rates?

Lorne D. Gilsig

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#499

Author: JrgEmm
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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Hey Frenchie,

Stereotyping Americans as "gullible," "under-educated," or "naive" are gross
generalizations. You don't know me. You don't know the person next-door to
me. If I were to generalize Frenchmen, I would say you are rude, smell bad,
and are always drunk. Well, maybe that applies to you. but intelligence
tells us that when you assume anything, you make an ass out of yourself. Get
off your pedestal, Eurotrash!!!. Maybe abductions exist, maybe they don't.
An intelligent mind ponders possibilities. Yours is obviously closed, so it
must be a small mind.

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#500

Author: m
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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chkcorea wrote:
> 
> That sleep paralysis theory is crap, it doesn't hold water.
> There are people who are having totally conscious abductuctions.

It appears to me that one reason for confusion with this, is that there
are multiple and related abduction phenomena, most of which take place
in dream states, and some which do not.  

In any case, scientific mumbo jumbo which has more to do with faith than
true science doesn't adequately explain the dream experiences and 'sleep
paralysis' either.

> 
> You people just grab any theory thrown at you and run with it.
> Succubus, incubus, it's old. I'm sick of the same old crap you
> ppl keep latching onto.

It appears to me that succubi and incubi are in certain ways similar to
the abduction phenomena.  From what evidence I have seen, the E.T.'s are
largely astral in nature, and most do not have solid bodies.  They are
real at that level however.  

My observation and experience has been that the "E.T.s'" can generally
only get at a person through that person's own emotional nature, so if a
person can decline to give them either fascination or fear, then they
will leave that person alone.  If unable to do that, thinking about
Jesus or ones's 'higher self' tends to move a person to a place where
the "E.T.'s" can't go.  It seems to me that this ought to at least help
for the 'daytime' abductions also, though depending on a person's
destiny it won't necessarily immediately preclude these experiences from
happening.

> 
> The evidence on the side of the abductees is too overwelming
> and you can't handle it, it scares you, so you throw things back
> like sleep paralysis and Succubus and Incubus and it's CRAP!

I agree.  As I indicated, I don't think that these other phenomena are
what they are said to be either though.

If it is true that there are few abductions in Europe, I would guess
that this is because the abduction phenomena appears in some other form
there, or is hidden behind some other set of images.  From what I can
see, the influences that are behind the abductions are at least as
active in Europe as in America.

In any case, fear and anger feed the problem rather than helping it.  I
think that what helps the most is honest examination of what is
happening.  This inevitably results in honest choices about it, and can
ultimately bring the phenomena to an end.  

Best wishes

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#501

Author: mark kozak
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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Patan�e Pongp� wrote:
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between Flying Saucers(or:M.O.C)in Europe
> and in the United-States.
> In Europe we have nearly no reports of the so-called "abductions".
> 
> The reason is essentially cultural because "abductions" have been
> created by a money oriented society which sells anything which can be
> swallowed by millions of gullible Americans.
> 
> There are many scientific reasons which preclude such things as
> abductions by ETI(Extraterrestrials)but these reasons are too complex
> to discuss here and,whatever their rationality,they would not convince
> the purported "abductees" to believe in their fairy tales anyhow.
> 
> Succubus and incubus have been the historical ancestors of modern days
> "abductees".
> 
> The first scientist who suggested that many of the
> "close-encounters",etc,with M.O.C were related to dream and sleep was
> astrophysicist Dr Jean-Pierre Gu�rin of the Institut
> d'Astrophysique,boulevard Arago,Paris,France,in the I970's.
> 
> As a proficient "conscious dreamer" I have been able to observe,in
> states which are intermediates between the waking state and
> sleep,consciouness states which could,easily,be misinterpreted by
> laymen full of Flying Saucers ideas in their head as anything
> extraordinary.
> 
> Such states of consciousness involve the blockade of motor efferents
> with a partial awakening.
> 
> When we sleep and dream our CNS blocks motor efferents so we are
> prevented to experience what we experience in the
> dream(endoreality)within exoreality.
> 
> For example,if I am walking in a dream the motor zones of my CNS which
> activate my legs are as fully active as if I were awake.
> To prevent me from walking while sleeping(a potentially catastrophic
> thing!)evolution has invented a neural mechanism(which I call the
> S.B.E.M)which blocks motor efferents.
> 
> This has been well studied and delineated by the famous sleep
> researcher,Dr Jouvet,in Lyon,France.
> 
> It happens,sometimes,that we wake up while the SBEM is still active
> and not disconnected.
> The result of this is that we regain a complete or more or less
> complete awareness of reality while we are completely paralysed in our
> bed!
> 
> This experience is often anxiogenic.
> 
> For example I can "wake up" while still feeling paralysed and
> experience auditory or visual dream hallucinations related to my fear.
> 
> For example once I walked up but still was paralysed and I "heard"
> "someone" opening my door and I could feel the "presence" of the
> "intruder" just next to the door(typical oneiric experience,by the
> way!).
> 
> As I was not totally awake I was convinced someone had opened the door
> and would come to us(my wife and I)to harm us.
> So I shouted in the dream because I knew I was paralysed and I wanted
> to totally wake up.
> 
> My voice could nearly not go out as I felt my mouth also paralysed.
> Then,finally,I woke up!
> And,of course,nobody had entered our appartment!
> 
> It was only a half-dream.
> 
> When you are in this kind of state the fear
> brings,AUTOMATICALLY,memories of what you fear...
> 
> So if you are ruminating about M.O.C then you might very well dream
> your flying saucer and its ETI !!!
> 
> It is as simple as that.
> 
> What has made this sleep phenomenon an irrational debacle is the
> generally low level of education of average citizens in the
> US,combined with a high degree of gullibility and naivete,all this
> flavoured with these stupid histories of "ufonauts" tales,books,etc.
> 
> Certainly if the media would have not publicised this
> misinterpretation and fuel it with absolutey grotesque movies,such as
> the "X-Files",and similar series made for 7 years old kids,then we
> would not have this "abduction" hysteria in the US !
> 
> We do not have "abductions" in France or nearly none!
> 
> Why?
> Not because the ETI like to abduct US citizens and not French but
> because our culture is different,less hollywoodian,more on the
> Earth...
> 
> French are more down to earth,less gullible,and not so much prone to
> mass hysteria!
> 
> So,M.O.C,that is Flying Saucers,do not come and "abduct" French while
> they sleep!!!!


Patanie,
	As you can see from the other replies to your post, anyone questioning
the Abductee Myth is generally treated with hostility around here. 
Welcome to the club.  I hope you have a thick skin.
  	In the true spirit of rational discourse, Lorne Gilsig & JrgEmm are
already attacking your nationality.  You, of course, had the temerity to
question our nation's educational system and our pre-occupation with
sci-fi fantasy like the X-Files.  (How dare you!)  I do agree with you
somewhat.  Americans are losing their ability to think critically.  This
phenomenon is worldwide, however.  Much of the Ufo Experiencer Mythology
has its origins in Europe, e.g. Billy Meier, UMMO, etc.
  	As for Chkcorea, he says:

	>"The evidence on the side of the abductees is too overwelming
and you can't handle it, it scares you, so you throw things back
like sleep paralysis and Succubus and Incubus and it's CRAP!"<

	Evidence?  All we have on our side is reems and reems of legitimate,
scholarly research into sleep paralysis, false memories, folklore, and
therapist/patient contamination.  They have "mysterious scars,"
"implants," "lost time," and other really cool stuff to fuel the
imagination.  (Oh, I'm so scaaaaared.  Please don't come and abduct me,
Mr Gray Alien ...)
  	Isn't it funny how the only people abducted are people who believe
(or come to believe) in the phenomonen?  How come the big bad aliens
don't abduct skeptics like James Randi, Martin Gardner, Phil Klass,
Robert Schaeffer, Curtis Peebles, Joe Nickel, Michael Schermer, Robert
Baker or Elizabeth Loftus? But then again, that would "reveal" their
presence, wouldn't it, and the aliens want to stay concealed, don't
they.  How convenient.
	I hope you continue posting despite the slings and arrows.

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#502

Author: mad phat poster dude
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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Please see the original message "Abductions" DO NOT exist: They are
misinterpreted sleep phenomena.

Certainly that is one possibility that can explain away a percentage of
"alien abduction" stories, yet there is a vast amount of evidence to support
the theory that your argument really does nothing to attack.  Think about
this way, a large portion of your argument is based on the concept that
American cutlure is all Hollywood and we are influenced by that.  Probably
that accounts for some of the stories, when someone is just so desperate for
attention that they make something up to get that attention they so
desperately crave.  Or a person sees everyone around him/her encountering
aliens and just wants to be part of that "hip" crowd.  Can we effectively
say that every story of alien abduction should be explained away by these
arguments?  The answer to that is a resounding, "no."

Your argument about sleep disorders is a good one, it can explain quite a
bit.  However, it overlooks certain other physical manifestations of
abduction.  What are we to think of the implants removed from people who
have claimed abduction?  How does your sleep disorder theory explain the
severe psychosis and prolonged terror associated with some abduction
experiences?  We, as Americans, may seem like a wild and crazy bunch, but
most of us are down-to-earth folk.  Many of the people who claim abduction
aren't even interested in the UFO folklore and don't watch the X-Files.
Most of the people who claim abduction didn't want this to happen, won't
admit it happened, and live in constant terror of it happening again.  Some
have vivid memories of the whole experience.  Bear in mind, also, that these
reports have been filtering through society since long before The X-FIles
made it's premier in the mid 90s.  If you are going to argue that TV and
Movies are twisting our minds, perhaps you should do some more research into
history.  If you want to argue that all abduction accounts are the result of
sleep disorders, you should probably want to examine how those same sleep
disorders will implant objects into the body of the sleeping person.  Should
you want to argue that Americans are all wired and unstable, perhaps you
should meet some Americans instead of believing the media hype or giving
into the "mass panic" you claim we all suffer from.  Frankly, I find your
arguments to be second rate at best.  Please try to argue your case more
coherently in the future.

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#503

Author: Norman Quisling
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:00

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chkcorea wrote:
> 
> That sleep paralysis theory is crap, 
[snip]
> You people just grab any theory thrown at you and run with it
[snip]
> The evidence on the side of the abductees is too overwelming
[snip snip]

I call it the luck o' the irish. Not everyone is chosen by them. He's
alive, sans a little body tissue perhaps, and back home. Maybe an
implant to track his movements. Other than that, the guy should QUIT
COMPLAINING!

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#504

Author: Dan Clore
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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mark kozak wrote:

>         Isn't it funny how the only people abducted are people who believe
> (or come to believe) in the phenomonen?  How come the big bad aliens
> don't abduct skeptics like James Randi, Martin Gardner, Phil Klass,
> Robert Schaeffer, Curtis Peebles, Joe Nickel, Michael Schermer, Robert
> Baker or Elizabeth Loftus? But then again, that would "reveal" their
> presence, wouldn't it, and the aliens want to stay concealed, don't
> they.  How convenient.

Now come on. Would you *really* want to get semen samples from, say,
Phil Klass? I mean, isn't he horrifying enough just by himself, without
having to envision thousands of little Grey/Klass hybrids running
around? It's almost as scary as the Brother Blue/Newbie hybrid, the
"Blewbie"....

--
---------------------------------------------------
Dan Clore

The Website of Lord We�rdgliffe:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/index.html
Welcome to the Waughters....

The Dan Clore Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/necpage.htm
Because the true mysteries cannot be profaned....

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#505

Author: Blue Resonant Human
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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chkcorea@ids.net (chkcorea) wrote:

>That sleep paralysis theory is crap, it doesn't hold water.
>There are people who are having totally conscious abductuctions.

>You people just grab any theory thrown at you and run with it.
>Succubus, incubus, it's old. I'm sick of the same old crap you
>ppl keep latching onto.

>The evidence on the side of the abductees is too overwelming
>and you can't handle it, it scares you, so you throw things back
>like sleep paralysis and Succubus and Incubus and it's CRAP!

Oh, I don't know about that, chkcorea (BTW, are you the scientologist
/ jazz musician Chick Corea by any chance?), your approach here
strikes me as little more than a mundane cross-cultural "MY mythology
can beat the shit out of YOUR mythology!" pissing match.

Such is little more than a tired cliche in these groups.

If nothing else, the incubus/succubus, folklore/mythology approach to
all this "space alien" stuff is certainly more historically accurate.
Elves and gnomes -- when viewed through the goggles of Star Trek's
Jeordi LaForge -- morph into grey aliens while vampires and ghouls
become cattle-mutilating zeta reticulans when you dress them in time-
and culture-appropriate regalia courtesy of George Adamski and Gene
Roddenberry.

And, of course, incubus/succubus/"old hag" attacks take on the flavour
of Horny Martian Leprechauns after a hypnosis session with Budd
Hopkins or Rich Boylan.  We Americans across the pond here often refer
to this sort of thing as "same shit, different day."

You may find a few of the following URLs of interest on this topic:

	"Space Alien" Daemonialitas
	http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/magonia.htm

	"UFO Abductions" Through the Ages
	http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/little.htm

	Brother W.B. Yeats and the Little People
	http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/yeats.htm

	Enoch & the Nephilim
	http://www.brotherblue.org/libers/enoch0.htm

HTH;

-Brother Blue, B:.B:., 33�
 http://www.brotherblue.org/
 Sublime Lodge of the Blue Brethren
 Sacerdotal Knights of National Security
"All impressions of Brother Blue are wrong"

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#506

Author: Blue Resonant Human
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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patanie@hotmail.com (Patan�e Pongp�) wrote:

[...]

>For example once I walked up but still was paralysed and I "heard"
>"someone" opening my door and I could feel the "presence" of the
>"intruder" just next to the door(typical oneiric experience,by the
>way!).

[...]

If interested, Brother Patan�e, a gentleman by the name of Joseph
Polanik (jpolanik@mindspring.com) runs a fine mailing list which
centers on this very topic.  The list is called "ASP" (i.e. "Awareness
during Sleep Paralysis") and runs the gamut from silly new age drivel
to worthless "me too" posts to some occasional gems of very scholarly
research.  I have seen a few professors on the list and there is as
well a good many ... umm ... field reports presented by the
experiencers themselves.

A fascinatingly cross-cultural experiment, the list attempts to lasso
"alien abductions," astral projection, incubus/succubus/old hag
attacks, psychedelic shamanism, and even mundane naive boneheaded pure
physiological perspectives all under the same umbrella.

Understandably, there is a certain level of bickering to be expected
in such a bold, cross-cultural experiment as this but in the final
analysis, the list provides some very useful -- and often intriguing
-- data.

Perhaps I'll see you there.

-Brother Blue, B:.B:.
 http://www.brotherblue.org/
"All impressions of Brother Blue are wrong"

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#507

Author: a00a0016
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 01:44:51 GMT, density4@cts.com.org.net (Blue
Resonant Human) wrote:

==== snip  ===================

=You may find a few of the following URLs of interest on this topic:
=
=	"Space Alien" Daemonialitas
=	http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/magonia.htm
=
=	"UFO Abductions" Through the Ages
=	http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/little.htm
=
=	Brother W.B. Yeats and the Little People
=	http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/yeats.htm
=
=	Enoch & the Nephilim
=	http://www.brotherblue.org/libers/enoch0.htm

lets' don't  forget your personal favorite:
              http://www.brotherblue.org/libers/csh.htm

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#508

Author: Furbelly
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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In article <3529458e.2038317@news.twics.com>, patanie@hotmail.com (Patan�e Pongp�) wrote:

>We do not have "abductions" in France or nearly none!
>
>Why?

Aliens prefer those who bathe.

>French are more down to earth,less gullible,and not so much prone to
>mass hysteria!
>
Don't forget, also the most arrogant culture on earth.

>So,M.O.C,that is Flying Saucers,do not come and "abduct" French while
>they sleep!!!!
>
Shame, they should take the whole lot of ya.

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#509

Author: Tony Veca
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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Patan�e Pongp� wrote in message <3529458e.2038317@news.twics.com>...
>There is a HUGE difference between Flying Saucers(or:M.O.C)in Europe
>and in the United-States.
>In Europe we have nearly no reports of the so-called "abductions".

No you guys get vistations.  But there are European abduction reports.
Timothy Good has documented a few of them in Above Top Secrete.

[...deletia...]


Like all theories, sleep phenomena can account for some, but not all
incidents of "alleged alien abduction". The other side of this coin is the
fact that the people who have put it forward have no medical or clinical
psychology backgrounds.

Dr Jouvet's work is good, but it doesn't explain all of the claims.

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#510

Author: Lawrence R. Mead
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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m (mbackues@micron.net) wrote:
: chkcorea wrote:
[much crap deleted]

For you two crazy advocates of alien abduction, where are the purported
conscious abductions and in what medical/scientific journal were they
reported in?


I didn't think so.



-- 

Lawrence R. Mead (lrmead@whale.st.usm.edu) 
ESCHEW OBFUSCATION ! ESPOUSE ELUCIDATION !
http://www-dept.usm.edu/~physics/mead.html

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#511

Author: Sveinung W. Tengelsen
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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In article <6gbm7j$hvf@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, JrgEmm
<URL:mailto:JrgEmm@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Hey Frenchie,

Never thought I'd find myself "defending" a Frenchman, but oh ah. 8)

> Stereotyping Americans as "gullible," "under-educated," or "naive" are
> gross generalizations.

You forgot "vacant". 8)

> You don't know me. You don't know the person next-door to me. If I were to
> generalize Frenchmen, I would say you are rude, smell bad, and are always
> drunk. Well, maybe that applies to you. but intelligence tells us that
> when you assume anything, you make an ass out of yourself.

Um, intelligence? As regards information or the ability to handle it?

> Get off your pedestal, Eurotrash!!!.

"Eurotrash" is/was a TV program. Featuring Jean Paul Gaultier. I fail to
see the relevance to the matter at hand.

> Maybe abductions exist, maybe they don't. An intelligent mind ponders
> possibilities.

Notice the upsurge of "extraterrestrial" xenophobia in the USofA after the
cold war ended? Coincidence? An aspiring intelligent mind doesn't consider
the paranoid fantasies of a people obviously *addicted* to having enemies
as "possibilities", but as a total waste of time.

> Yours is obviously closed, so it must be a small mind.

Highly doubtful - the USofA has the highest rate of illiteracy of all
industrialised countries. Which will not change as long as you insist
on allocating more funds to prisons than education. The statistics speak
against you, I'm afraid.

-- 
Regards,

Sveinung W. Tengelsen
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
mailto:pixeleye@sn.no                  |           I have one illusion;
http://www.sn.no/~pixeleye/Index.htm   |           I have no illusions.

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#512

Author: AJBoff
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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In article <chkcorea-0604981825370001@dyn083a.px3-ri.ids.net>,
  chkcorea@ids.net (chkcorea) wrote:
>
> That sleep paralysis theory is crap, it doesn't hold water.
> There are people who are having totally conscious abductuctions.
>
> You people just grab any theory thrown at you and run with it.
> Succubus, incubus, it's old. I'm sick of the same old crap you
> ppl keep latching onto.
>
> The evidence on the side of the abductees is too overwelming
> and you can't handle it, it scares you, so you throw things back
> like sleep paralysis and Succubus and Incubus and it's CRAP!
>
> --
> http://www.users.ids.net/~chkcorea/s.htm
>

It's interesting that the symptoms of abduction are similar to the symptoms
of MHIC-EDOM implants developed by MK-ULTRA (see "The Controllers").

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#513

Author: m
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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Lawrence R. Mead wrote:
> 
> m (mbackues@micron.net) wrote:
> : chkcorea wrote:
> [much crap deleted]
> 
> For you two crazy advocates of alien abduction, where are the purported
> conscious abductions and in what medical/scientific journal were they
> reported in?
> 
> I didn't think so.
> 

The only scientific publication I read is _Science_, and no, they don't
run reports of alien abductions.  I also don't think that abductions
have anything to do with intelligent non-human beings called 'aliens',
though I'm not going to try to explain my perspective on this now.  I do
however have an observation to make about two assumptions contained in
your question.  The assumptions are:

1) Advocates of alien abduction are crazy.  
2) Reports of abductions lack credibility unless they appear in
scientific or medical journals.

Clearly, no respectable scientific or medical journal would run papers
written by people who are considered crazy, so it is not possible for
reports of abductions to appear in such publications.  The absence of
such reports in such publications is then used to support the assertion
that advocates of alien abductions are crazy.  

A person could call this circular reasoning, though I wouldn't use the
word reasoning this way.

****

I do concur that many or even most people who are interested in or have
been involved with 'abduction' experiences are missing a few screws, so
to speak.  Just as the people who want to get stoned are generally the
ones who get stoned, the people who are fascinated by or fearful of
'paranormal' phenomena are generally the ones who get tangled up in it. 
The fascination itself involves a kind of insanity.  The mental
incompetence of many of those who have such experiences does not
demonstrate that the experience is not 'real' however.  This would be
much like interviewing a few dozen prostitutes, finding out that they're
not as mentally competent as most people, and then deciding that pimps
don't exist.  There is of course other evidence for the existence of
pimps besides taking the word of prostitutes, but such evidence would
not be found if the possible existence of pimps was dismissed before
additional evidence was sought.

Personally, my assumption that pimps exist isn't based on physical
evidence of their existence which I trust.  I assume that they exist
because I can predict their existence based on what I understand of
human thinking.  Everyone has to look for whatever kind of evidence that
they themselves can trust however.

Mark

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#514

Author: JrgEmm
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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Dear Mr. Tengelsen,

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my sarcastic message. In case you
didn't get it, I was simply trying to emphasize a point. People are what
they make themselves to be. People are not where they live. I couldn't care
less about alien abductions. If you don't live in a particular place, you
cannot tell me what it is like to live, grow, and die there. Don't  try and
tell me who I am by my nationality.

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#515

Author: Don P. esoxlNeodymium
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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 (Patan�e Pongp�) writes:
>
>There is a HUGE difference between Flying Saucers(or:M.O.C)in Europe
>and in the United-States.
>In Europe we have nearly no reports of the so-called "abductions".
>
>The reason is essentially cultural because "abductions" have been
>created by a money oriented society which sells anything which can be
>swallowed by millions of gullible Americans.
>
  Yes and No. Yes, there is no question of how gullible amercicans 
are, that is pretty much self evident (the bulk of Americans anyway).

  However you cannot say ALL abductions have been created this 
way.   

>There are many scientific reasons which preclude such things as
>abductions by ETI(Extraterrestrials)but these reasons are too complex
>to discuss here and,whatever their rationality,they would not convince
>the purported "abductees" to believe in their fairy tales anyhow.
>

  The problem that you have here is equating abductions with
the dreaded *aliens* (as well as many gullible americans do). 

  I am an alien visitation skeptic. However, since I know 
humans have had efficient disc aircraft for at least 43 years,
the abduction scenario may have a more down to earth 
explanation. 

  Agreed that some abduction cases can be explained away
with dreams, mental instability, etc., but one can NOT discount
every abduction case as being false. 

  It is very possible that a some abductions cases are in fact
true, but the abductors were/are humans and not Mr. ET.

  The alien stigma is a PERFECT scapegoat for this heinous 
act.  

  Just as the credible sightings are blamed on Mr. ET, so are 
many of the credible abduction cases.  To suggest that ALL UFO
sightings or ALL abductions cases are false is very closed minded. 

  The facts are that humans have been working on disc aircraft 
and Unified Field Theories since before WW2.  This human 
endeavor led to disc (and other shaped UFO crafts) that breaks
the KNOWN laws of physics. It was/is a simple task to covertly 
blame the sightings for such craft on Mr. ET. It is also a simple 
task to debunk the alien myth (since in my opinion alien visitaion
is not fact).  

  The whole UFO and alien visitation realm is blamed on 
everything from Mr. ET to halucinations. However, the 
truth, the HUMAN aspects, are NEVER addressed, and for
good reason, because it is classified information. Where 
everything BUT the truth will be addressed.

SNIP

>We do not have "abductions" in France or nearly none!
>
>Why?
>Not because the ETI like to abduct US citizens and not french but
>because our culture is different,less hollywoodian,more on the
>Earth...
>
  Or maybe because atfer WW2, france did NOT get any of the 
German engineers who were developing disc aircraft and Unified
Field Theories before and during WW2.

  And maybe because France did not have many physicists/engineers/
inventors, as there were in other countries that stumbled upon some
rather interesting interactions between gravity/electric/magnetic 
fields. 

 I suspect three countries began development of disc aircraft 
involving Unified Field Thoeries after WW2, and France is NOT
one of them. 

>French are more down to earth, less gullible,and not so much prone to
>mass hysteria!
>
  You say that you are not gullible aye. Let me ask you a question
or three.

  Do you think that humans could have developed VERY 
efficient disc (and other shaped UFO aircraft) over 
50 years ago?

  Do you think that it is possible that sometime between
1900 - 1930 that humans have made GREAT advances concerning
the Unified Field Thoeries?

  Do you think that this (at least) 50 year old HUMAN 
technology was ever used to abduct a citizen (for 
whatever reason)?

 If your reply to these queries is negative, then I suggest
that you are just as gullible as the rest of the masses.

 You say "Abductions DO NOT exist", I say you are gullible.

 You say that abduction cases "are misinterpreted sleep 
phenomena", I say a percentage probably are.

 You say that abduction cases are NOT the result of Mr. ET
dropping by for a visit and a short ride. I agree, but I will
remain open minded to any physical evidence of Mr. ET.

 Could humans have abducted citizens with their UFO crafts?
The correct question should be, HOW MANY citizens have been
abducted by humans and their UFO crafts?

 Don't feel that you are alone with you narrow minded
views. This and every other UFO and alien visitation
forum (hat I have seen) devotes all their attention to 
every concept under the sun, accpet the HUMAN aspect.  
Seems that blaming HUMANS for the UFO and alien visitation
phenomenon is a TABOO subject. Have any idea why that 
would be!?!?!?

  Join the gullible club frenchman!

Kind Regards

Don Palermo
Investigator of Theoretical Physics,
and Unified Field Theories.

To reply by email remove Neodymium.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Humans have had VERY efficient disc aircraft for 
at least 43 years."

ETH (Alien Visitation) skeptic

UFO (Human Made Disc Aircraft) proponent
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#516

Author: Patan�e Pongp�
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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Le Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:06:12 -0400, "Lorne D. Gilsig"
<gilsig@earthlink.net> vous �criv�tes:

>Dear Patan�e Pongp�,
>
>Maybe aliens just don't like Europeans, or they can't afford the season
>rates?

I guess ETIs are not interested in fine French cuisine and prefer
McDonalds and similar crap...

Regards,
P P
>
>Lorne D. Gilsig
>

Re: "Abductions" DO NOT exist :They are misinterpreted sleep phenomena

#517

Author: Patan�e Pongp�
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:00

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Le Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:30 -0600, "mad phat poster dude"
<lahtie@usa.net> vous �criv�tes:

>
>
>Please see the original message "Abductions" DO NOT exist: They are
>misinterpreted sleep phenomena.
>
>Certainly that is one possibility that can explain away a percentage of
>"alien abduction" stories, yet there is a vast amount of evidence to support
>the theory that your argument really does nothing to attack.

If you have this evidence then why the "evidence" is only in the US
and not,let say,in Switzerland? I have never heard of any "abduction"
story in Switzerland,simply because Swiss are more down to earth than
even the French!

All these stories of "abductions" started really after the publication
of the book "The Interrupted Journey"(if I recall)...and Dr Hynek
going on explaining that "these persons had a very real experience..."
yes:it was "real" in the dream sense!
This book was the snow ball which gave this growing hysteria in your
country.

>  Think about
>this way, a large portion of your argument is based on the concept that
>American cutlure is all Hollywood and we are influenced by that.

Hollywood has a HUGE influence on the psyche of Americans.

>  Probably
>that accounts for some of the stories, when someone is just so desperate for
>attention that they make something up to get that attention they so
>desperately crave.  Or a person sees everyone around him/her encountering
>aliens and just wants to be part of that "hip" crowd.  Can we effectively
>say that every story of alien abduction should be explained away by these
>arguments?  The answer to that is a resounding, "no."
>
>Your argument about sleep disorders is a good one, it can explain quite a
>bit.  However, it overlooks certain other physical manifestations of
>abduction.  What are we to think of the implants removed from people who
>have claimed abduction?

Do you have INCONTROVERTIBLE scientific proofs about this?
If you had I am sure LOTS of scientists woud be glad to study it.
Scientists are curious people by nature.

>  How does your sleep disorder theory explain the
>severe psychosis and prolonged terror associated with some abduction
>experiences?

A severe nightmare can give rise to long lasting psychological
disturbances.

>  We, as Americans, may seem like a wild and crazy bunch, but
>most of us are down-to-earth folk. 

Then how can you believe that ETIs just go to America,ignoring the
rest of the world?

> Many of the people who claim abduction
>aren't even interested in the UFO folklore and don't watch the X-Files

Still this topic is permeating your culture,like the air.
Why? Because your culture has taken away the myths and rituals which
permeate other cultures.And huan beings need such things.
Hollywood has become the national myth and ritual industry!
.
>Most of the people who claim abduction didn't want this to happen, won't
>admit it happened, and live in constant terror of it happening again.  Some
>have vivid memories of the whole experience.

A mad man has vivid memories of his madness,once normal!

>  Bear in mind, also, that these
>reports have been filtering through society since long before The X-FIles
>made it's premier in the mid 90s.

Yes:they started with "The Interrupted Journey"...

>  If you are going to argue that TV and
>Movies are twisting our minds, perhaps you should do some more research into
>history.  If you want to argue that all abduction accounts are the result of
>sleep disorders, you should probably want to examine how those same sleep
>disorders will implant objects into the body of the sleeping person.

Where are these "implants"????

>  Should
>you want to argue that Americans are all wired and unstable, perhaps you
>should meet some Americans instead of believing the media hype or giving
>into the "mass panic" you claim we all suffer from.  Frankly, I find your
>arguments to be second rate at best.  Please try to argue your case more
>coherently in the future.
>
>
Regards,

P P