🚀 go-pugleaf

wat@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (William) writes:

>In article <2mvvqv$8gg@crl.crl.com>, Tala Brandeis <tala@crl.com> wrote:
>>If you are identified as woman and as dyke and your dyke friends accept you
>>as a woman and a dyke, women's space is open to you.  One must become part
>>of the culture in order to be accepted by the culture.  To that end, one
>>must identify as female, as dyke and *live* that way.  If one wants to 
>>be accepted that is.  This is true for any culture.   If one identifies as
>>male or transsexual one cannot expect the culture of dyke women to open
>>their arms.  Dykes want to separate from men.  For good reason.  Male
>>identified folks just aren't welcome.  
>---
>	I don't have a problem with consistant behavior based rules --
>things like "if you rape, you are bad".  What I heavily dislike
>is a pre-judgement that TS's cannot be just as feminine (whatever
>that means in a given context) as other women.  Of the TS's I
>have known -- none were male identified -- most wanted nothing more
>than to be fully and completely thought of as a woman.  Also,
>just to be fully clear, I am only really talking about post-op
>TS's.  Since to my mind, since they have identified as female
>in personality, behavior and body to discriminate against them for
>a past they had no choice about seems very ugly.

Welllll;  Being a dyke probably has very little to do with being
feminine, at least in the way most men understand feminine.  Actually,
being a dyke has much more to do with being a woman and having 
the consciousness of being female in a patriarchal culture.  

Certainly one may have attraction to other women and be a lesbian,
but even that at some point requires a female, a woman's consciousness
to be part of the culture of women and not just part of "the bar
scene."  

There are certainly many more women with male-patterned, male-
identified behaviors than there are transsexuals.  (Not all of them,
or even most of them lesbian.  Most are het.)  At this time 
they get special dispensation as women withing the women's community.
(The idea that genitalia and/or history *are* the gender are so
pronounced and so unconscious in our culture that many dyke women
fail to recognize the obvious.)  

Women as dykes are growing a new culture and are saddled with the 
culture from which they have emerged.  That includes
all the beliefs of the parent culture.  Unlearning old beliefs, learning
new ones at a cultural level is still fraught with difficulty and much
trial and error.  I for one want to limit the number of male-patterned
individuals who inhabit women's space if only to find out what women's
space can be like without that energy.  I believe transsexuals who 
want to participate in women's culture must find a way to form 
associations with women who are part of the culture they want to
be accepted into.  Networking, volunteering, staffing, supporting.
You know, those things women have been "trained" to do so well
by our culture.  

Those that "demand," "fight for their *rights* of inclsion," and
generally make nuiscances of themselves will continue to be thought
of in a bad light irrespective of their gender.  

There is significant difference in wanting to be known as female
and *being* female, woman.  Genitalia are the least of the requirements
for entry into the culture of women, although if you want to cut 
your dick off to gain entry, I won't stop you from persuing your 
goal.  It won't help honey.  Women, while concerned about that 
part of your anatomy in it's capacity as a weapon, are much more
concerned about your behavior.  (Current behavior.)  

There is a difference in discrimintation based on current behavior
and past behavior.  Unfortunately for many transsexuals their current
behavior is similar or the same in significat ways to the behavior
in their "former" lives.  If their behavior is most similar to women
and they identify as women, should be easy for them to be accepted
as women unless they or someone else brings up the issue of their 
former behavior and public identity.

Now if the issue is the need for the person to identify as a 
transsexual, then what is she doing in a women's group that is
formed for the purpose of supporting women who have been raised
as girls and women in this culture.  The two groups have differing
needs even though they have similar political and social oppression.
Seems to me if transsexuals want women to accept them as women, then
transsexuals need to bring much more to the mix.  Transsexuals need
to study what it means to be a women and know the consciousness of
women to a much greater depth than most women who have yet to 
develop a consciousness of feminism.  Or as my lover has stated,
"Transsexuals should at least have Women's Studies 201 prior to
attempting to enter a women's only group."  While that may be
out of the realm of many working class transsexual lesbians, 
libraries do exist.  

If transsexuals are so desirous of ataining feminist consciousness
they would do well to form groups to study feminist consciousness
among themselves.  (And obtain outside support from lesbian women.)
If transsexuals were willing, able and capable of doing such a 
thing without having it degenerate into a hormones r us koffee
klatch, dykes might be more inclined to at least consider the 
ability of transsexuals to understand what it means to be female.

Tala@crl.com


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