🚀 go-pugleaf

In message 
<a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716bb3@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, 
fabzorba <myles.abzorba@gmail.com> writes
>WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>eating alone, but never in company.
>
>I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>as devices to point and make gestures with.
>
>But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?

Being brung up proper, I was taught that unless it was a last resort, 
when eating with a knife and fork, you should to keep the tines down.

However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the 
attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy 
I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when 
he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon. 
I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on 
the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat 
them. I can't say I disagree with him.
-- 
Ian

Ian Jackson wrote:

> In message
> <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716bb3@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
> fabzorba <myles.abzorba@gmail.com> writes
>>WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>>together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>>This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>>pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>>would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>>surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>>eating alone, but never in company.
>>
>>I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>>years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>>would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>>potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>>still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>>series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>>Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>>line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>>European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>>Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>>as devices to point and make gestures with.
>>
>>But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>>smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
> 
> Being brung up proper, I was taught that unless it was a last resort,
> when eating with a knife and fork, you should to keep the tines down.
> 
> However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
> attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
> I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
> he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
> I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
> the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
> them. I can't say I disagree with him.

I was also taught (under pain of a healthy clip round the ear) to keep the 
tines facing downwards - unless the nature of the food requires that the 
fork be transferred to the other hand and used without the knife. I'm not 
sure what the TDN (pronunciation copyright protected) (Tines Down Nazis) 
have to say about spaghetti.
  
-- 
Les (BrE)
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust 
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)

In article <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716bb3
@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, myles.abzorba@gmail.com says...
> 
> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> eating alone, but never in company.
> 
> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
> as devices to point and make gestures with.
> 
> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?

I have to admit, I've never heard of, or wondered about the tines 
pointing up or down meaning anything. Even my friend whose mother ran a 
charm school didn't say anything about it, and she obsessed over all 
kinds of nonsense. One time, I got fed up with her nitpicking about her 
son's and my "manners", and I just tossed the fork and knife on the 
table and picked up my sreak with my hands and ate my entire meal that 
way, staring at her the whole time. It was a huge hit with her family, 
especially her husband, but she didn't like it too much. She called my 
mom up and told her what I did, and my mother's response, "And?", didn't 
go over too well either.

-- 
BDK- Head FUD-Master Blaster. Friend to all kOOkbashers.

Ian Jackson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
> attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
> I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
> he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
> I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
> the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
> them. I can't say I disagree with him.

I too were brung up proper, so I set the fork whichever way up is
appropriate - tines up or down as required. Using a spoon to scoop up the
peas is a definite no-no though.

There was one occasion where I had to reverse the usual layout - after I had
broken my left arm. For a while I could not raise my left hand far enough
to reach my mouth, so I had to have the fork in my right hand and the knife
in my left. Very difficult to get used to the reverse movements at first
but I managed it. (Finger movements were unaffected by the injury, and full
use of my left arm was gradually restored.)
-- 
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

fabzorba <myles.abzorba@gmail.com> writes:

> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> eating alone, but never in company.
>
> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>
> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?

Fork etiquette is a fascinating bit of comparative cultural history.
According to Petroski (_The Evolution of Useful Things_) the way that
Europeans and Americans treat forks has to do with what they did
before forks were introduced.  In much of Europe, including the UK,
the practice was to eat with two knives, using one to hold the food
down while the other cut, and then using the first to bring the food
to the mouth.  So when forks were introduced as a better second knife
(since the multiple tines meant that the food was less likely to twist
while cutting and the lack of a blade meant you were less likely to
cut your lips), it was held tines-down (to better stabilize) and it
remained in the non-cutting hand when bringing the food to the mouth
(as the second knife had).

In America, by contrast, the practice was to eat with a knife and
spoon, using the spoon to stabilize food (poorly) while cutting and
switching hands to scoop the cut food (or, apparently more commonly
there than in Europe, stew) and bring it to the mouth, because most
people have trouble either cutting or using a spoon with their off
hand.  The fork was taken as a better spoon (since it could better
hold food when cutting, and you didn't need to push food onto it with
your knife), but the practice of changing hands and holding it convex
side up, as had been done with the spoon, remained.

Do Brits these days think of forks as more like spoons or more like
knives?

-- 
Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
    Still with HP Labs                 |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway.
    SF Bay Area (1982-)                |It can't affect you unless you
    Chicago (1964-1982)                |install Windows, and who would be
                                       |foolish enough to do that?
    evan.kirshenbaum@gmail.com         |            Peter Moylan

    http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> fabzorba writes:

>> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>> eating alone, but never in company.
>>
>> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>>
>> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
> 
> Fork etiquette is a fascinating bit of comparative cultural history.
> According to Petroski (_The Evolution of Useful Things_) the way that
> Europeans and Americans treat forks has to do with what they did
> before forks were introduced.  In much of Europe, including the UK,
> the practice was to eat with two knives, using one to hold the food
> down while the other cut, and then using the first to bring the food
> to the mouth.  So when forks were introduced as a better second knife
> (since the multiple tines meant that the food was less likely to twist
> while cutting and the lack of a blade meant you were less likely to
> cut your lips), it was held tines-down (to better stabilize) and it
> remained in the non-cutting hand when bringing the food to the mouth
> (as the second knife had).
> 
> In America, by contrast, the practice was to eat with a knife and
> spoon, using the spoon to stabilize food (poorly) while cutting and
> switching hands to scoop the cut food (or, apparently more commonly
> there than in Europe, stew) and bring it to the mouth, because most
> people have trouble either cutting or using a spoon with their off
> hand.  The fork was taken as a better spoon (since it could better
> hold food when cutting, and you didn't need to push food onto it with
> your knife), but the practice of changing hands and holding it convex
> side up, as had been done with the spoon, remained.
> 
> Do Brits these days think of forks as more like spoons or more like
> knives?
> 
In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
spoons.  No knives are present.  The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
instrument, when required.

-- 
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html

On May 26, 7:06 am, BDK <Cont...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote:
> In article <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716bb3
> @hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, myles.abzo...@gmail.com says...
>
> > WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> > together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> > This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> > pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> > would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> > surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> > eating alone, but never in company.
>
> > I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> > years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> > would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> > potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
> > still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
> > series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
> > Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
> > line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
> > European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
> > Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
> > as devices to point and make gestures with.
>
> > But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
> > smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
> I have to admit, I've never heard of, or wondered about the tines
> pointing up or down meaning anything. Even my friend whose mother ran a
> charm school didn't say anything about it, and she obsessed over all
> kinds of nonsense. One time, I got fed up with her nitpicking about her
> son's and my "manners", and I just tossed the fork and knife on the
> table and picked up my sreak with my hands and ate my entire meal that
> way, staring at her the whole time. It was a huge hit with her family,
> especially her husband, but she didn't like it too much. She called my
> mom up and told her what I did, and my mother's response, "And?", didn't
> go over too well either.

  A female friend of my family was sent to a finishing school in
Interlaken, Switzerland (in the late 1960's) where she caught all
sorts of hell for being an American barbarian. She will recount at the
drop of a hat the Headmistress asking if she needed her roasted
chicken deboned so as not to have to eat it with her fingers, though
Female Friend successfully managed to use knife and fork on it all by
herself.

  She did not mention the tines up/down distinction though and I don't
recall seeing her eat either way preferentially.

  A little research shows that table forks were generally flat until
some 18th century German got the idea of curving them, before which
point they were called "split spoons". Farming forks (pitchforks etc.)
generally had curved tines since antiquity though so I'm wondering if
tines-up indicated one was a hayseed.

  My family line has a high proportion of hayseeds, and I was taught
"fingers came before forks". Even my somewhat prissy Jehovah's Witness
aunt saw me, as a child, eating her (outstanding) fried chicken with
my fingers as a sign of great appreciation.

  Anybody else remember sporks? Great idea efficiency-wise but they
never really caught on. Maybe it's because they're impossible to use
tines-down.


  Dr. HotSalt

On May 26, 4:29 am, Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
> Ian Jackson wrote:
> > In message
> > <a9a2c1c8-24e8-4bf1-a423-87b163716...@hc4g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
> > fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> writes
> >>WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> >>together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> >>This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> >>pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> >>would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> >>surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> >>eating alone, but never in company.
>
> >>I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> >>years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> >>would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> >>potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
> >>still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
> >>series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
> >>Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
> >>line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
> >>European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
> >>Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
> >>as devices to point and make gestures with.
>
> >>But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
> >>smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
> > Being brung up proper, I was taught that unless it was a last resort,
> > when eating with a knife and fork, you should to keep the tines down.
>
> > However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the
> > attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy
> > I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when
> > he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon.
> > I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on
> > the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat
> > them. I can't say I disagree with him.
>
> I was also taught (under pain of a healthy clip round the ear) to keep the
> tines facing downwards - unless the nature of the food requires that the
> fork be transferred to the other hand and used without the knife. I'm not
> sure what the TDN (pronunciation copyright protected) (Tines Down Nazis)
> have to say about spaghetti.

  Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
things...


  Dr. HotSalt

Ian Jackson filted:
>
>However, some 50 years ago, I was at a semi-formal dinner where the 
>attendees were university engineering staff and their students. The guy 
>I was seated next to was one of the lecturers, and I was surprised when 
>he specifically asked the waiter if he could have an extra desert spoon. 
>I tactfully asked him why, and he replied that, as there were peas on 
>the menu, any engineer with any common sense would use a spoon to eat 
>them. I can't say I disagree with him.

Barbarians!...anyone with half a brain would know to use chopsticks....r


-- 
Me?  Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

alien8er filted:
>
>  Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
>satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
>with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
>things...

Oh, that hasn't been a mere parody for quite some time now....

Circa 1980, a man named Howard Morris released a movie called "Gizmo!"
consisting of film clips of inventors from the 1920s through the early
1970s...when promoting the film, he was asked if he had noticed any ideas that
kept surfacing again and again while he scoured the archives...yes, he answered,
for some reason people keep trying to invent an automatic spaghetti fork....

The second most common idea was for an alarm clock that would force you out of
bed, whether by stripping away the bedclothes, tilting the bed to make you fall
out, or pouring water on your face....r


-- 
Me?  Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

R H Draney wrote:

> alien8er filted:
>>
>>  Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
>>satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
>>with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
>>things...
> 
> Oh, that hasn't been a mere parody for quite some time now....
> 
> Circa 1980, a man named Howard Morris released a movie called "Gizmo!"
> consisting of film clips of inventors from the 1920s through the early
> 1970s...when promoting the film, he was asked if he had noticed any ideas
> that kept surfacing again and again while he scoured the archives...yes,
> he answered, for some reason people keep trying to invent an automatic
> spaghetti fork....
> 
> The second most common idea was for an alarm clock that would force you
> out of bed, whether by stripping away the bedclothes, tilting the bed to
> make you fall out, or pouring water on your face....r
> 
Or you could just get married. 

-- 
Les (BrE)
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust 
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)

"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:kntnb7$fhv$1@news.albasani.net...
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> fabzorba writes:
>
>>> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>>> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>>> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>>> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>>> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>>> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>>> eating alone, but never in company.
>>>
>>> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>>> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>>> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>>> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>>> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>>> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>>> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>>> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>>> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>>> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>>> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>>>
>>> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>>> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>>
>> Fork etiquette is a fascinating bit of comparative cultural history.
>> According to Petroski (_The Evolution of Useful Things_) the way that
>> Europeans and Americans treat forks has to do with what they did
>> before forks were introduced.  In much of Europe, including the UK,
>> the practice was to eat with two knives, using one to hold the food
>> down while the other cut, and then using the first to bring the food
>> to the mouth.  So when forks were introduced as a better second knife
>> (since the multiple tines meant that the food was less likely to twist
>> while cutting and the lack of a blade meant you were less likely to
>> cut your lips), it was held tines-down (to better stabilize) and it
>> remained in the non-cutting hand when bringing the food to the mouth
>> (as the second knife had).
>>
>> In America, by contrast, the practice was to eat with a knife and
>> spoon, using the spoon to stabilize food (poorly) while cutting and
>> switching hands to scoop the cut food (or, apparently more commonly
>> there than in Europe, stew) and bring it to the mouth, because most
>> people have trouble either cutting or using a spoon with their off
>> hand.  The fork was taken as a better spoon (since it could better
>> hold food when cutting, and you didn't need to push food onto it with
>> your knife), but the practice of changing hands and holding it convex
>> side up, as had been done with the spoon, remained.
>>
>> Do Brits these days think of forks as more like spoons or more like
>> knives?
>>
> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
> spoons.  No knives are present.  The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
> instrument, when required.

Very true in a lot of SE Asia, first ran into it in Thailand, very good way 
to eat. The Chinese felt that getting guest to butcher their meat at the 
table was not proper so it is cut into edible size pieces in the kitchen 
hence chopsticks can be used 

On 27/05/13 2:51 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> fabzorba <myles.abzorba@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>> eating alone, but never in company.
>>
>> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>>
>> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
> Fork etiquette is a fascinating bit of comparative cultural history.
> According to Petroski (_The Evolution of Useful Things_) the way that
> Europeans and Americans treat forks has to do with what they did
> before forks were introduced.  In much of Europe, including the UK,
> the practice was to eat with two knives, using one to hold the food
> down while the other cut, and then using the first to bring the food
> to the mouth.  So when forks were introduced as a better second knife
> (since the multiple tines meant that the food was less likely to twist
> while cutting and the lack of a blade meant you were less likely to
> cut your lips), it was held tines-down (to better stabilize) and it
> remained in the non-cutting hand when bringing the food to the mouth
> (as the second knife had).
>
> In America, by contrast, the practice was to eat with a knife and
> spoon, using the spoon to stabilize food (poorly) while cutting and
> switching hands to scoop the cut food (or, apparently more commonly
> there than in Europe, stew) and bring it to the mouth, because most
> people have trouble either cutting or using a spoon with their off
> hand.  The fork was taken as a better spoon (since it could better
> hold food when cutting, and you didn't need to push food onto it with
> your knife), but the practice of changing hands and holding it convex
> side up, as had been done with the spoon, remained.
>
> Do Brits these days think of forks as more like spoons or more like
> knives?
>

Neither. Or if they're like knives it's because they're for stabbing.

-- 
Robert Bannister

On Sun, 26 May 2013 00:50:28 -0700 (PDT), fabzorba
<myles.abzorba@gmail.com> wrote:

>WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>pierce, like peas. [---]

We French look upom the habit of eating peas with a tines-down fork as
a typically nonsensensical piece of British folklore.

Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> wrote:
> R H Draney wrote:
> 
>> alien8er filted:
>>> 
>>>  Anyone else read Mad magazine back in the 1960's? I remember a
>>> satire article describing the invention of a battery-operated fork
>>> with spinning tines for use with spaghetti. Now you can buy the damn
>>> things...
>> 
>> Oh, that hasn't been a mere parody for quite some time now....
>> 
>> Circa 1980, a man named Howard Morris released a movie called "Gizmo!"
>> consisting of film clips of inventors from the 1920s through the early
>> 1970s...when promoting the film, he was asked if he had noticed any ideas
>> that kept surfacing again and again while he scoured the archives...yes,
>> he answered, for some reason people keep trying to invent an automatic
>> spaghetti fork....
>> 
>> The second most common idea was for an alarm clock that would force you
>> out of bed, whether by stripping away the bedclothes, tilting the bed to
>> make you fall out, or pouring water on your face....r
>> 
> Or you could just get married. 


Well, *my* wife knows how to get up in the morning without waking me up.
;-)

/Walter

fabzorba wrote:
> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> eating alone, but never in company.
>
> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>
> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?

To anyone in Europe, using the fork tines down will immediately identify 
you as an American caveman.

No wonder you're having problems with peas and other stuff, besides 
looking like five-year-olds who have just been given this strange 
contraption and have no idea which way to grab it.

The Swedish cook

On Mon, 27 May 2013 17:36:21 +0200, Swedish Cook <scook@swe.cook.swe>
wrote:

>fabzorba wrote:
>> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
>> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
>> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
>> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
>> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
>> eating alone, but never in company.
>>
>> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
>> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
>> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
>> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
>> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
>> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
>> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
>> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
>> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
>> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
>> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>>
>> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
>To anyone in Europe, using the fork tines down will immediately identify 
>you as an American caveman.

An American caveman, eh?  The only American cavemen I know about are
spelunkers.  I wasn't aware that they take silverware into the
caverns.

>No wonder you're having problems with peas and other stuff, besides 
>looking like five-year-olds who have just been given this strange 
>contraption and have no idea which way to grab it.
>
>The Swedish cook
-- 
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

Swedish Cook <scook@swe.cook.swe> writes:

> fabzorba wrote:
>> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
>> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the
>> time.  This was quite an art to master, especially with small items
>> hard to pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away
>> with it, I would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as
>> a scoop, which surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this
>> sometimes when I am eating alone, but never in company.
>>
>> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates
>> many years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was
>> wonderful - he would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork
>> using some mashed potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely
>> gone. But I was still surprised when I viewed an episode of
>> Hannibal, the new American series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the
>> erudite gourmand psychiatrist Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have
>> being a serial killer as a side line. In this episode, Hannibal
>> once again prepares a sumptuous European style feast. I noticed
>> that his guests ate like typical Americans, shoveling food into
>> open mouths, and using eating utensils as devices to point and make
>> gestures with.
>>
>> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
>> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
> To anyone in Europe, using the fork tines down will immediately
> identify you as an American caveman.

Since Americans tend to use it tines up and Brits (and, I had thought,
most Europeans) tend to use it tines down, this doesn't say much for
Europeans.

-- 
Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
    Still with HP Labs                 |If only some crazy scientist
    SF Bay Area (1982-)                |somewhere would develop a device
    Chicago (1964-1982)                |that would allow us to change the
                                       |channel on our televisions......
    evan.kirshenbaum@gmail.com         |         --"lazarus"

    http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

On 2013-05-26, fabzorba wrote:

> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> eating alone, but never in company.
>
> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was


Is it a breach of etiquette to serve peas without some adhesive food
at the same time?


-- 
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life.                                       --- Sabine Baring-Gould

On 2013-05-26, BDK wrote:

> I have to admit, I've never heard of, or wondered about the tines 
> pointing up or down meaning anything. Even my friend whose mother ran a 
> charm school didn't say anything about it, and she obsessed over all 
> kinds of nonsense. One time, I got fed up with her nitpicking about her 
> son's and my "manners", and I just tossed the fork and knife on the 
> table and picked up my sreak with my hands and ate my entire meal that 
> way, staring at her the whole time. It was a huge hit with her family, 

If it was good enough for mediaeval kings...


-- 
Nam Sibbyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla 
pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: beable beable beable; respondebat 
illa: doidy doidy doidy.                                   [plorkwort]

On 2013-05-26, alien8er wrote:

>   A little research shows that table forks were generally flat until
> some 18th century German got the idea of curving them, before which
> point they were called "split spoons". Farming forks (pitchforks etc.)
> generally had curved tines since antiquity though so I'm wondering if
> tines-up indicated one was a hayseed.
...
>   Anybody else remember sporks? Great idea efficiency-wise but they
> never really caught on. Maybe it's because they're impossible to use
> tines-down.


I have several sporks for travel & picnics.  I wonder what we'd call
them if the "split spoons" name had persisted for forks ---
"semi-split spoons"?


-- 
The history of the world is the history of a privileged few.
                                            --- Henry Miller

On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > fabzorba writes:
> >> WIWAL, I was taught to eat my dinner with a knife and fork used
> >> together, and with the fork having tines pointing down all the time.
> >> This was quite an art to master, especially with small items hard to
> >> pierce, like peas. When I was a child and could get away with it, I
> >> would often turn the fork tines up so I could use it as a scoop, which
> >> surely makes sense. I must admit that I do this sometimes when I am
> >> eating alone, but never in company.
>
> >> I rem seeing a British academic eating a meal with undergraduates many
> >> years ago, and the way he handled those pesky peas was wonderful - he
> >> would glue a few of them on his tines-down fork using some mashed
> >> potato. Now, this etiquette seems to have largely gone. But I was
> >> still surprised when I viewed an episode of Hannibal, the new American
> >> series which has Mads Mikkelsen as the erudite gourmand psychiatrist
> >> Hannibal Lecter, who happens to have being a serial killer as a side
> >> line. In this episode, Hannibal once again prepares a sumptuous
> >> European style feast. I noticed that his guests ate like typical
> >> Americans, shoveling food into open mouths, and using eating utensils
> >> as devices to point and make gestures with.
>
> >> But then I saw Hannibal use the fork tines up! I was totally gob-
> >> smacked! Surely this cannot be? Or am I getting something wrong?
>
> > Fork etiquette is a fascinating bit of comparative cultural history.
> > According to Petroski (_The Evolution of Useful Things_) the way that
> > Europeans and Americans treat forks has to do with what they did
> > before forks were introduced.  In much of Europe, including the UK,
> > the practice was to eat with two knives, using one to hold the food
> > down while the other cut, and then using the first to bring the food
> > to the mouth.  So when forks were introduced as a better second knife
> > (since the multiple tines meant that the food was less likely to twist
> > while cutting and the lack of a blade meant you were less likely to
> > cut your lips), it was held tines-down (to better stabilize) and it
> > remained in the non-cutting hand when bringing the food to the mouth
> > (as the second knife had).
>
> > In America, by contrast, the practice was to eat with a knife and
> > spoon, using the spoon to stabilize food (poorly) while cutting and
> > switching hands to scoop the cut food (or, apparently more commonly
> > there than in Europe, stew) and bring it to the mouth, because most
> > people have trouble either cutting or using a spoon with their off
> > hand.  The fork was taken as a better spoon (since it could better
> > hold food when cutting, and you didn't need to push food onto it with
> > your knife), but the practice of changing hands and holding it convex
> > side up, as had been done with the spoon, remained.
>
> > Do Brits these days think of forks as more like spoons or more like
> > knives?
>
> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
> spoons.  No knives are present.  The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
> instrument, when required.
>
I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
fork!

"fabzorba" <myles.abzorba@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:693bf298-1fc9-4d16-a490-075098f083c6@mq5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
>I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
fork!


Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
experience of course, but the whole idea of having to learn how to eat with
unsuitable implements seems patently silly to me, even though I was brought
up with the 'always eat with tines down', different knives, forks, spoons
depending on the dish etc. All silly nonsense I'm glad is less rigidly
adhered to than it once was. Some people still prefer to eat a hot dog,
hamburger or fried chicken with knife and fork though, but at least they now
find it hard to convince everyone else to follow suit.

Trevor.

On May 30, 11:03 am, "Trevor" <tre...@home.net> wrote:
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:693bf298-1fc9-4d16-a490-075098f083c6@mq5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...>I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>
> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
> fork!
>
> Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
> experience of course, but the whole idea of having to learn how to eat with
> unsuitable implements seems patently silly to me, even though I was brought
> up with the 'always eat with tines down', different knives, forks, spoons
> depending on the dish etc. All silly nonsense I'm glad is less rigidly
> adhered to than it once was. Some people still prefer to eat a hot dog,
> hamburger or fried chicken with knife and fork though, but at least they now
> find it hard to convince everyone else to follow suit.
>
One of the things that I enjoyed about the two months that I spent in
South Korea was learning how to be adept with their metal chopsticks -
they're more difficult than wooden or plastic ones by quite a bit. In
the end I was able to eat rice with ease using them and even do pretty
well with noodle soup.

I brought a pair home with me so that I could continue to exercise my
new-found skill and I use them quite often.

Of course, apart from the politeness involved in using them at the
time, there's not much point to having this achievement, this doesn't
prevent it being a pleasing thing to have achieved and a skill I enjoy
exercising just for fun.

"Peter Brooks" <peter.h.m.brooks@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:899eed3a-7028-495f-952f-e712214a3f4f@w5g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
One of the things that I enjoyed about the two months that I spent in
South Korea was learning how to be adept with their metal chopsticks -
they're more difficult than wooden or plastic ones by quite a bit. In
the end I was able to eat rice with ease using them and even do pretty
well with noodle soup.
I brought a pair home with me so that I could continue to exercise my
new-found skill and I use them quite often.
Of course, apart from the politeness involved in using them at the
time, there's not much point to having this achievement, this doesn't
prevent it being a pleasing thing to have achieved and a skill I enjoy
exercising just for fun.
-----------------------------------

Yes mastering a difficult skill can sometimes be satisfying, despite being 
totally pointless. Other times its just a pain in the proverbial.

Trevor.

On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:

> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:

>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>> spoons.  No knives are present.  The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>> instrument, when required.
>>
> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
> fork!


AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
well in clumps).


-- 
Disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld about bombing anybody who gets in our
way is not a crime in this country. It is a wise and honorable idea
that George Washington and Benjamin Franklin risked their lives for.
                                                 --- Hunter S Thompson

In message <rjkj7axr4b.ln2@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk 
<a24061@ducksburg.com> writes
>On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>> spoons. �No knives are present. �The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>> instrument, when required.
>>>
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>> fork!
>
>
>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>well in clumps).
>
And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is 
raised to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
-- 
Ian

On 30/05/2013 5:03 AM, Trevor wrote:
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzorba@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less
>> sensible
> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it
> does work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a
> tine-down fork!

> Far easier than using chopsticks IMO! Both can be made to work with
> experience of course, but the whole idea of having to learn how to
> eat with unsuitable implements seems patently silly to me, even
> though I was brought up with the 'always eat with tines down',
> different knives, forks, spoons depending on the dish etc. All silly
> nonsense I'm glad is less rigidly adhered to than it once was. Some
> people still prefer to eat a hot dog, hamburger or fried chicken with
> knife and fork though, but at least they now find it hard to convince
> everyone else to follow suit.

Once when I was making myself useful at a conference, I looked across
the hotel terrace where I was having breakfast and saw one of the
delegates eating his buttered toast with knife and fork.  From Tuvalu, I
think.

On 2013-05-30, Ian Jackson wrote:

> In message <rjkj7axr4b.ln2@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk 
><a24061@ducksburg.com> writes
>>On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>>
>>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>>> spoons.  No knives are present.  The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>>> instrument, when required.
>>>>
>>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>>> fork!
>>
>>
>>AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>>suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>well in clumps).
>>
> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is 
> raised to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.


Very practical indeed.


-- 
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the 
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Verity Stob)

On May 30, 2:10 pm, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <rjkj7axr4b....@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk
> <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>
> >> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
> >>> spoons. No knives are present. The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
> >>> instrument, when required.
>
> >> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
> >> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
> >> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
> >> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
> >> fork!
>
> >AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
> >suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
> >well in clumps).
>
> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is
> raised to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>
'Chop-sticked', 'chopped' or 'conveyed', rather than 'shovelled', I'd
have thought - shovelling would involve a spoon of shovel-like design
or proportions.

On 30/05/13 6:00 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>> spoons.  No knives are present.  The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>> instrument, when required.
>>>
>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>> fork!
>
>
> AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
> suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
> well in clumps).

Have you watched Chinese people eat? They will pick up whole crabs in 
their chopsticks and bite bits off. It's fork-only cultures that can be 
guaranteed to serve you bite-sized food.
-- 
Robert Bannister

On 30/05/13 9:53 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:
> On May 30, 2:10 pm, Ian Jackson
> <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <rjkj7axr4b....@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk
>> <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:
>>
>>>> On 27 May, 05:21, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> In some (Asian, I think) cultures, eating is done using forks and
>>>>> spoons. No knives are present. The spoon doubles as a crude cutting
>>>>> instrument, when required.
>>
>>>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>>>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>>>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>>>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>>>> fork!
>>
>>> AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>>> suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>>> well in clumps).
>>
>> And if the food cannot be picked up by the chopsticks, the bowl is
>> raised to the lips, and the food is shovelled into the mouth.
>>
> 'Chop-sticked', 'chopped' or 'conveyed', rather than 'shovelled', I'd
> have thought - shovelling would involve a spoon of shovel-like design
> or proportions.
>

Which would be a lot more sensible.

-- 
Robert Bannister

On 2013-05-31, Robert Bannister wrote:

> On 30/05/13 6:00 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2013-05-30, fabzorba wrote:

>>> I thought they used chopsticks, which might seem even less sensible
>>> than tine-down use of the fork. A chopstick is the handle of a fork
>>> with tines removed, and a spoon with no ladle at the end. But it does
>>> work. People even eat rice with it. Try doing that with a tine-down
>>> fork!
>>
>> AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>> suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>> well in clumps).
>
> Have you watched Chinese people eat? They will pick up whole crabs in 
> their chopsticks and bite bits off. It's fork-only cultures that can be 
> guaranteed to serve you bite-sized food.

Interesting.  I spent a week in South Korea a few years ago &
everything I was served was either spoon-oriented, bite-sized, or
already on a stick.


-- 
There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with 
your wife.                [Ray Magliozzi, Car Talk 2011-36]

"Whiskers" <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnkqs2gs.25f.catwheezel@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
> As for satisfaction with the invention of chopsticks, surely it has to be
> admitted that they could not be refined any further.

At which point a smart person admits their error and tries a better solution 
entirely. Pretentious wankers of course relish the opportunity to prove 
their skill at something no sane person would even bother learning, knowing 
there are better alternatives, and life is too short to learn everything. 
Those forced to eat that way from early childhood had no say in the matter 
of course.
I'd never starve using chopsticks, but I'm quite happy not to be an expert 
at it.

Trevor.

"Oliver Cromm" <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote in message
news:zrzwbogd3odr$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info...
>> There isn't much you can't manage with knife, fork, spoon and fingers,
>> but
>> chopsticks alone do have their limits no matter how much you practice.
>
> Similarly, each of knife, fork and spoon alone have their limits,
> to introduce a fairer comparison. If you can only choose one,
> chopsticks are a pretty versatile choice.

Nope, ONE chopstick is a pretty dire implement for eating anything!
You'd need to sharpen it like a skewer so you could stab your food at least.

Trevor.

"Oliver Cromm" <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote in message 
news:eog2xgmy4py3$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info...
>> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
>
> You never see them bury them.

Sure you do, hatchets are usually buried in someones back. However Asians 
rarely use hatchets. Cleavers or machete's, samurai swords in Japan perhaps.

Trevor.

On 05/06/2013 5:47 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> writes:

>> The reproof sounds like what a child might have been told at
>> table* to encourage him to stop using a spoon.

>> * ObAUE: Is that like "at school" or "in hospital"?

> Is that an either-or?  It's like "in hospital" in that it sounds
> wrong in AmE.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering.  It sounds normal to me.

On 05/06/2013 4:20 PM, James Hogg wrote:
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>> * Leslie Danks:
>>>> Dr Nick wrote:
>>>>> Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> writes:

>>>>>> I don't understand that. Chinese kitchens rarely use any utensils
>>>>>> apart from extra large chopsticks and occasionally spoons.
>>>>> And knives.  Big sharp knives.
>>>> And hatchets for settling argumenets between rival cooks.
>>> You never see them bury them.

>> "I have come to bury the hatchet, not to praise it."

> "O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth, that I am meek and gentle
> with these butcher's," said Mark Antony apostrophically.

You are an evil man, to wake me up so.

On 2013-05-31, Robert Bannister wrote:

> On 30/05/13 6:00 PM, Adam Funk wrote:

>> AFAICT, chopstick-using cultures also prepare food so as to be
>> suitable for chopsticks (bite-sized pieces; rice varieties that work
>> well in clumps).
>
> Have you watched Chinese people eat? They will pick up whole crabs in 
> their chopsticks and bite bits off. It's fork-only cultures that can be 
> guaranteed to serve you bite-sized food.


http://www.buzzfeed.com/mattbellassai/45-people-you-wont-believe-actually-exist-6z51

16. This kid eating pizza with chopsticks.


-- 
Classical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture,
indeed, to Western civilization.  Computer languages bring us
doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and
Tetris clones.                                         (Stoll 1995)

On 27/05/2013 17:36, Swedish Cook wrote:

> 
> To anyone in Europe, using the fork tines down will immediately identify
> you as an American caveman.
> 
> No wonder you're having problems with peas and other stuff, besides
> looking like five-year-olds who have just been given this strange
> contraption and have no idea which way to grab it.
> 
> The Swedish cook
> 

Hurdy gurdy gurdy ... I think your opinion is right up there with Moose
droppings

A true European (unraped by Vikings)