🚀 go-pugleaf

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Brad Willcott wrote:

>
>
> Hi there.
>
> Firstly, this is NOT a challenge for a fight to the death, but a
> serious request for real-world experience advise. So no flames please.
>
> I am trying to decide on a company standard for Web development. I am
> in the process of converting the company's servers from M$ NT Server 4
> to RedHat 6.2 Linux. This, ofcourse includes the Web server. I am
> pretty much sold on using Apache, and have already got an experimental
> server running with modules for: Perl, SSL, PHP and FrontPage 2000
> Extensions.
>
> My question to you folks, is what are the reasons for/against using
> Java (not Javascript) and/or PHP as my company's web development
> language? As yet I have no preferrance for either apart from PHP's
> Open Source philosophy. I am interested in information on such things
> as: Learning curve, development/maintenance time, flexibility,
> accessing back-end Oracle databases, simplicity, power functions, etc.
>
> Perhaps you may feel it benefitial to use both. Why? Why not?
>
> We will be developing Web sites of varied styles and complexities.
> Many accessing back-end databases requiring complex relationships and
> integrity checking. Some will have two views of the database:
> Client/Customer view, and Company/Data Maintenance view. I'm looking
> to develop browser based data systems.
>
> So, I wish to thank you all, in advance for your input to this
> discussion.
>
> Brad Willcott
> Manager, Client Projects
> EW Systems, Australia
> +612 6232 6342
> <brad@ewsystems.com.au>
>
>
>

Well to start out with lets look at the similarities.

1. Both PHP and Java are interpreted. Meaning they have to be converted
to machine code at Run-time unlike C which is precompiled and faster.

2. Both are easy to learn if you know C/C++ and easier than C.

3. Both can access your server and have built-in commands for doing so.
You may need to install an Oracle library for Java, I don't know.

If someone can think of more similarities add them.

Differences

1. Java can be Run on either the server or the client. PHP pages are
rendered prior to sending to the client so they are server side. But the
client has to support Java.

2. Java can render pages as pop-up java applets on the client and offer
more flexibility as they aren't limited to HTML, JavaScript, ActiveX
stuff like browsers are. (I am distinquishing the difference between
using Java engine for a applet as opposed to the browser itself minus
the Java Engine.)

3. For Client side information that is using a continuous feed i.e.
Stock Ticker. Java is the way to go. I have seen the PHP chat program
and it is slow.

4. Security. PHP is more secure than Java. Java applets crash browsers
and tend to be buggy. PHP on the other hand is considered pretty secure
as the engine runs as part of the apache server. This means that Apache
doesn't have to fork another program to render the pages serverside.

5. Open Source. Because PHP is open source you can compile new commands
to speed up page rendering or add more PHP commands.

6. Object oriented. Despite PHP's limited Object Oriented support, it
really isn't an object oriented programming language yet. Java is Object
Oriented. Object Oriented programming is easier when you are working
with a large number of programmers. It helps breakdown the problems into
smaller units which can be written by individuals who don't have to know
how the other programmers are writing their modules.

7. Learning curve. PHP is fairly easy to learn and easier than Java.

8. Graphics. PHP is slow at rendering graphics on the fly. As for Java,
I haven't tried it but as an interpreted language I would assume that it
would be slow as well unless.... See number 9.

9. Compiling. Well if you want, you can compile Java code serverside for
better performance. I don't know of a PHP compiler as of yet.

10. Compatibility. If you use Java client side, you will run into
compatibility problems. If the user is using one of the newer Browsers,
they "may" have java enabled. An older browser probably doesn't have
java support.

11. PHP isn't a very mature programming language. With PHP, you are able
to do lots but it is still lacking really good string functions. I would
assume Java has much better string function support. But on the other
hand PHP was written for the webmaster. It has lots of features that
make using for rendering webpages a dream.

Feel free to add more.

We here at eWaddle are using PHP. Our goal is to reach a wide audience
and maybe even people using lynx and other non-graphical browsers. As
such, PHP is more than sufficient for the Job. We are using database
access and
have setup a news and discussion site for the open sources community.
Come tryout our site. I encourage you to register, read and post.

Keep a watch on our site as we plan to release the eWaddle code as open
source later this year.

Mark Lane
Senior Programmer
http://www.ewaddle.com


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<html>
Brad Willcott wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>Hi there.
<p>Firstly, this is NOT a challenge for a fight to the death, but a serious
request for real-world experience advise. So no flames please.
<p>I am trying to decide on a company standard for Web development. I am
in the process of converting the company's servers from M$ NT Server 4
to RedHat 6.2 Linux. This, ofcourse includes the Web server. I am pretty
much sold on using Apache, and have already got an experimental server
running with modules for: Perl, SSL, PHP and FrontPage 2000 Extensions.
<p>My question to you folks, is what are the reasons for/against using
Java (not Javascript) and/or PHP as my company's web development language?
As yet I have no preferrance for either apart from PHP's Open Source philosophy.
I am interested in information on such things as: Learning curve, development/maintenance
time, flexibility, accessing back-end Oracle databases, simplicity, power
functions, etc.
<p>Perhaps you may feel it benefitial to use both. Why? Why not?
<p>We will be developing Web sites of varied styles and complexities. Many
accessing back-end databases requiring complex relationships and integrity
checking. Some will have two views of the database: Client/Customer view,
and Company/Data Maintenance view. I'm looking to develop browser based
data systems.
<p>So, I wish to thank you all, in advance for your input to this discussion.
<p>Brad Willcott
<br>Manager, Client Projects
<br>EW Systems, Australia
<br>+612 6232 6342
<br>&lt;<a href="mailto:brad@ewsystems.com.au">brad@ewsystems.com.au</a>>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
Well to start out with lets look at the similarities.
<p>1. Both PHP and Java are interpreted. Meaning they have to be converted
to machine code at Run-time unlike C which is precompiled and faster.
<p>2. Both are easy to learn if you know C/C++ and easier than C.
<p>3. Both can access your server and have built-in commands for doing
so. You may need to install an Oracle library for Java, I don't know.
<p>If someone can think of more similarities add them.
<p>Differences
<p>1. Java can be Run on either the server or the client. PHP pages are
rendered prior to sending to the client so they are server side. But the
client has to support Java.
<p>2. Java can render pages as pop-up java applets on the client and offer
more flexibility as they aren't limited to HTML, JavaScript, ActiveX stuff
like browsers are. (I am distinquishing the difference between using Java
engine for a applet as opposed to the browser itself minus the Java Engine.)
<p>3. For Client side information that is using a continuous feed i.e.
Stock Ticker. Java is the way to go. I have seen the PHP chat program and
it is slow.
<p>4. Security. PHP is more secure than Java. Java applets crash browsers
and tend to be buggy. PHP on the other hand is considered pretty secure
as the engine runs as part of the apache server. This means that Apache
doesn't have to fork another program to render the pages serverside.
<p>5. Open Source. Because PHP is open source you can compile new commands
to speed up page rendering or add more PHP commands.
<p>6. Object oriented. Despite PHP's limited Object Oriented support, it
really isn't an object oriented programming language yet. Java is Object
Oriented. Object Oriented programming is easier when you are working with
a large number of programmers. It helps breakdown the problems into smaller
units which can be written by individuals who don't have to know how the
other programmers are writing their modules.
<p>7. Learning curve. PHP is fairly easy to learn and easier than Java.
<p>8. Graphics. PHP is slow at rendering graphics on the fly. As for Java,
I haven't tried it but as an interpreted language I would assume that it
would be slow as well unless.... See number 9.
<p>9. Compiling. Well if you want, you can compile Java code serverside
for better performance. I don't know of a PHP&nbsp;compiler as of yet.
<p>10. Compatibility. If you use Java client side, you will run into compatibility
problems. If the user is using one of the newer Browsers, they "may" have
java enabled. An older browser probably doesn't have java support.
<p>11. PHP isn't a very mature programming language. With PHP, you are
able to do lots but it is still lacking really good string functions. I
would assume Java has much better string function support. But on the other
hand PHP was written for the webmaster. It has lots of features that make
using for rendering webpages a dream.
<p>Feel free to add more.
<p>We here at eWaddle are using PHP. Our goal is to reach a wide audience
and maybe even people using lynx and other non-graphical browsers. As such,
PHP&nbsp;is more than sufficient for the Job. We are using database access
and
<br>have setup a news and discussion site for the open sources community.
Come tryout our site. I encourage you to register, read and post.
<p>Keep a watch on our site as we plan to release the eWaddle code as open
source later this year.
<p>Mark Lane
<br>Senior Programmer
<br><A HREF="http://www.ewaddle.com">http://www.ewaddle.com</A>
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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PHP is way to go! I have used it since version 2.0 and it has been easi, =
fast, and reliable. Plus it is free!
  Mark <code.guy@home.com> wrote in message =
news:3909B917.94DFECD8@home.com...
  Brad Willcott wrote:=20
     =20
    Hi there.=20

    Firstly, this is NOT a challenge for a fight to the death, but a =
serious request for real-world experience advise. So no flames please.=20

    I am trying to decide on a company standard for Web development. I =
am in the process of converting the company's servers from M$ NT Server =
4 to RedHat 6.2 Linux. This, ofcourse includes the Web server. I am =
pretty much sold on using Apache, and have already got an experimental =
server running with modules for: Perl, SSL, PHP and FrontPage 2000 =
Extensions.=20

    My question to you folks, is what are the reasons for/against using =
Java (not Javascript) and/or PHP as my company's web development =
language? As yet I have no preferrance for either apart from PHP's Open =
Source philosophy. I am interested in information on such things as: =
Learning curve, development/maintenance time, flexibility, accessing =
back-end Oracle databases, simplicity, power functions, etc.=20

    Perhaps you may feel it benefitial to use both. Why? Why not?=20

    We will be developing Web sites of varied styles and complexities. =
Many accessing back-end databases requiring complex relationships and =
integrity checking. Some will have two views of the database: =
Client/Customer view, and Company/Data Maintenance view. I'm looking to =
develop browser based data systems.=20

    So, I wish to thank you all, in advance for your input to this =
discussion.=20

    Brad Willcott=20
    Manager, Client Projects=20
    EW Systems, Australia=20
    +612 6232 6342=20
    <brad@ewsystems.com.au>=20
     =20
     =20
    =20

  Well to start out with lets look at the similarities.=20
  1. Both PHP and Java are interpreted. Meaning they have to be =
converted to machine code at Run-time unlike C which is precompiled and =
faster.=20

  2. Both are easy to learn if you know C/C++ and easier than C.=20

  3. Both can access your server and have built-in commands for doing =
so. You may need to install an Oracle library for Java, I don't know.=20

  If someone can think of more similarities add them.=20

  Differences=20

  1. Java can be Run on either the server or the client. PHP pages are =
rendered prior to sending to the client so they are server side. But the =
client has to support Java.=20

  2. Java can render pages as pop-up java applets on the client and =
offer more flexibility as they aren't limited to HTML, JavaScript, =
ActiveX stuff like browsers are. (I am distinquishing the difference =
between using Java engine for a applet as opposed to the browser itself =
minus the Java Engine.)=20

  3. For Client side information that is using a continuous feed i.e. =
Stock Ticker. Java is the way to go. I have seen the PHP chat program =
and it is slow.=20

  4. Security. PHP is more secure than Java. Java applets crash browsers =
and tend to be buggy. PHP on the other hand is considered pretty secure =
as the engine runs as part of the apache server. This means that Apache =
doesn't have to fork another program to render the pages serverside.=20

  5. Open Source. Because PHP is open source you can compile new =
commands to speed up page rendering or add more PHP commands.=20

  6. Object oriented. Despite PHP's limited Object Oriented support, it =
really isn't an object oriented programming language yet. Java is Object =
Oriented. Object Oriented programming is easier when you are working =
with a large number of programmers. It helps breakdown the problems into =
smaller units which can be written by individuals who don't have to know =
how the other programmers are writing their modules.=20

  7. Learning curve. PHP is fairly easy to learn and easier than Java.=20

  8. Graphics. PHP is slow at rendering graphics on the fly. As for =
Java, I haven't tried it but as an interpreted language I would assume =
that it would be slow as well unless.... See number 9.=20

  9. Compiling. Well if you want, you can compile Java code serverside =
for better performance. I don't know of a PHP compiler as of yet.=20

  10. Compatibility. If you use Java client side, you will run into =
compatibility problems. If the user is using one of the newer Browsers, =
they "may" have java enabled. An older browser probably doesn't have =
java support.=20

  11. PHP isn't a very mature programming language. With PHP, you are =
able to do lots but it is still lacking really good string functions. I =
would assume Java has much better string function support. But on the =
other hand PHP was written for the webmaster. It has lots of features =
that make using for rendering webpages a dream.=20

  Feel free to add more.=20

  We here at eWaddle are using PHP. Our goal is to reach a wide audience =
and maybe even people using lynx and other non-graphical browsers. As =
such, PHP is more than sufficient for the Job. We are using database =
access and=20
  have setup a news and discussion site for the open sources community. =
Come tryout our site. I encourage you to register, read and post.=20

  Keep a watch on our site as we plan to release the eWaddle code as =
open source later this year.=20

  Mark Lane=20
  Senior Programmer=20
  http://www.ewaddle.com=20
   =20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PHP is way to go! I have used it since =
version 2.0=20
and it has been easi, fast, and reliable. Plus it is free!</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>Mark &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:code.guy@home.com">code.guy@home.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:3909B917.94DFECD8@home.com">news:3909B917.94DFECD8@home.com<=
/A>...</DIV>Brad=20
  Willcott wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">&nbsp;=20
    <P>Hi there.=20
    <P>Firstly, this is NOT a challenge for a fight to the death, but a =
serious=20
    request for real-world experience advise. So no flames please.=20
    <P>I am trying to decide on a company standard for Web development. =
I am in=20
    the process of converting the company's servers from M$ NT Server 4 =
to=20
    RedHat 6.2 Linux. This, ofcourse includes the Web server. I am =
pretty much=20
    sold on using Apache, and have already got an experimental server =
running=20
    with modules for: Perl, SSL, PHP and FrontPage 2000 Extensions.=20
    <P>My question to you folks, is what are the reasons for/against =
using Java=20
    (not Javascript) and/or PHP as my company's web development =
language? As yet=20
    I have no preferrance for either apart from PHP's Open Source =
philosophy. I=20
    am interested in information on such things as: Learning curve,=20
    development/maintenance time, flexibility, accessing back-end Oracle =

    databases, simplicity, power functions, etc.=20
    <P>Perhaps you may feel it benefitial to use both. Why? Why not?=20
    <P>We will be developing Web sites of varied styles and =
complexities. Many=20
    accessing back-end databases requiring complex relationships and =
integrity=20
    checking. Some will have two views of the database: Client/Customer =
view,=20
    and Company/Data Maintenance view. I'm looking to develop browser =
based data=20
    systems.=20
    <P>So, I wish to thank you all, in advance for your input to this=20
    discussion.=20
    <P>Brad Willcott <BR>Manager, Client Projects <BR>EW Systems, =
Australia=20
    <BR>+612 6232 6342 <BR>&lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:brad@ewsystems.com.au">brad@ewsystems.com.au</A>&gt; =
<BR>&nbsp;=20
    <BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE>Well to start out with lets =
look at the=20
  similarities.=20
  <P>1. Both PHP and Java are interpreted. Meaning they have to be =
converted to=20
  machine code at Run-time unlike C which is precompiled and faster.=20
  <P>2. Both are easy to learn if you know C/C++ and easier than C.=20
  <P>3. Both can access your server and have built-in commands for doing =
so. You=20
  may need to install an Oracle library for Java, I don't know.=20
  <P>If someone can think of more similarities add them.=20
  <P>Differences=20
  <P>1. Java can be Run on either the server or the client. PHP pages =
are=20
  rendered prior to sending to the client so they are server side. But =
the=20
  client has to support Java.=20
  <P>2. Java can render pages as pop-up java applets on the client and =
offer=20
  more flexibility as they aren't limited to HTML, JavaScript, ActiveX =
stuff=20
  like browsers are. (I am distinquishing the difference between using =
Java=20
  engine for a applet as opposed to the browser itself minus the Java =
Engine.)=20
  <P>3. For Client side information that is using a continuous feed i.e. =
Stock=20
  Ticker. Java is the way to go. I have seen the PHP chat program and it =
is=20
  slow.=20
  <P>4. Security. PHP is more secure than Java. Java applets crash =
browsers and=20
  tend to be buggy. PHP on the other hand is considered pretty secure as =
the=20
  engine runs as part of the apache server. This means that Apache =
doesn't have=20
  to fork another program to render the pages serverside.=20
  <P>5. Open Source. Because PHP is open source you can compile new =
commands to=20
  speed up page rendering or add more PHP commands.=20
  <P>6. Object oriented. Despite PHP's limited Object Oriented support, =
it=20
  really isn't an object oriented programming language yet. Java is =
Object=20
  Oriented. Object Oriented programming is easier when you are working =
with a=20
  large number of programmers. It helps breakdown the problems into =
smaller=20
  units which can be written by individuals who don't have to know how =
the other=20
  programmers are writing their modules.=20
  <P>7. Learning curve. PHP is fairly easy to learn and easier than =
Java.=20
  <P>8. Graphics. PHP is slow at rendering graphics on the fly. As for =
Java, I=20
  haven't tried it but as an interpreted language I would assume that it =
would=20
  be slow as well unless.... See number 9.=20
  <P>9. Compiling. Well if you want, you can compile Java code =
serverside for=20
  better performance. I don't know of a PHP&nbsp;compiler as of yet.=20
  <P>10. Compatibility. If you use Java client side, you will run into=20
  compatibility problems. If the user is using one of the newer =
Browsers, they=20
  "may" have java enabled. An older browser probably doesn't have java =
support.=20
  <P>11. PHP isn't a very mature programming language. With PHP, you are =
able to=20
  do lots but it is still lacking really good string functions. I would =
assume=20
  Java has much better string function support. But on the other hand =
PHP was=20
  written for the webmaster. It has lots of features that make using for =

  rendering webpages a dream.=20
  <P>Feel free to add more.=20
  <P>We here at eWaddle are using PHP. Our goal is to reach a wide =
audience and=20
  maybe even people using lynx and other non-graphical browsers. As =
such,=20
  PHP&nbsp;is more than sufficient for the Job. We are using database =
access and=20
  <BR>have setup a news and discussion site for the open sources =
community. Come=20
  tryout our site. I encourage you to register, read and post.=20
  <P>Keep a watch on our site as we plan to release the eWaddle code as =
open=20
  source later this year.=20
  <P>Mark Lane <BR>Senior Programmer <BR><A=20
  href=3D"http://www.ewaddle.com">http://www.ewaddle.com</A> <BR>&nbsp;=20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BFB1D8.4ACD8B20--

You have missed one important Java plus - Servlets. Prior to the Java
Servlets API and the apache mod_jserv module, I would probably have
advised to go with PHP. However, I have just developed an ISP
accoutning system which uses java servlets, the JDBC database API, the
apache jserv module and an sql back-end and it works really well. 

I think java's OO stuff is more mature and better defined than PHP, is
better for more complex processing of db data and more flexible (you
can use both servlets and applets, java server pages, java server side
includes etc). There are also quite a few good libraries freely
available for doing html which make it even easier (e.g. ecs). 

Tim
Mark <code.guy@home.com> writes:

> --------------19BE49B4315A4F1718400EDB
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Brad Willcott wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Hi there.
> >
> > Firstly, this is NOT a challenge for a fight to the death, but a
> > serious request for real-world experience advise. So no flames please.
> >
> > I am trying to decide on a company standard for Web development. I am
> > in the process of converting the company's servers from M$ NT Server 4
> > to RedHat 6.2 Linux. This, ofcourse includes the Web server. I am
> > pretty much sold on using Apache, and have already got an experimental
> > server running with modules for: Perl, SSL, PHP and FrontPage 2000
> > Extensions.
> >
> > My question to you folks, is what are the reasons for/against using
> > Java (not Javascript) and/or PHP as my company's web development
> > language? As yet I have no preferrance for either apart from PHP's
> > Open Source philosophy. I am interested in information on such things
> > as: Learning curve, development/maintenance time, flexibility,
> > accessing back-end Oracle databases, simplicity, power functions, etc.
> >
> > Perhaps you may feel it benefitial to use both. Why? Why not?
> >
> > We will be developing Web sites of varied styles and complexities.
> > Many accessing back-end databases requiring complex relationships and
> > integrity checking. Some will have two views of the database:
> > Client/Customer view, and Company/Data Maintenance view. I'm looking
> > to develop browser based data systems.
> >
> > So, I wish to thank you all, in advance for your input to this
> > discussion.
> >
> > Brad Willcott
> > Manager, Client Projects
> > EW Systems, Australia
> > +612 6232 6342
> > <brad@ewsystems.com.au>
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Well to start out with lets look at the similarities.
> 
> 1. Both PHP and Java are interpreted. Meaning they have to be converted
> to machine code at Run-time unlike C which is precompiled and faster.
> 
> 2. Both are easy to learn if you know C/C++ and easier than C.
> 
> 3. Both can access your server and have built-in commands for doing so.
> You may need to install an Oracle library for Java, I don't know.
> 
> If someone can think of more similarities add them.
> 
> Differences
> 
> 1. Java can be Run on either the server or the client. PHP pages are
> rendered prior to sending to the client so they are server side. But the
> client has to support Java.
> 
> 2. Java can render pages as pop-up java applets on the client and offer
> more flexibility as they aren't limited to HTML, JavaScript, ActiveX
> stuff like browsers are. (I am distinquishing the difference between
> using Java engine for a applet as opposed to the browser itself minus
> the Java Engine.)
> 
> 3. For Client side information that is using a continuous feed i.e.
> Stock Ticker. Java is the way to go. I have seen the PHP chat program
> and it is slow.
> 
> 4. Security. PHP is more secure than Java. Java applets crash browsers
> and tend to be buggy. PHP on the other hand is considered pretty secure
> as the engine runs as part of the apache server. This means that Apache
> doesn't have to fork another program to render the pages serverside.
> 
> 5. Open Source. Because PHP is open source you can compile new commands
> to speed up page rendering or add more PHP commands.
> 
> 6. Object oriented. Despite PHP's limited Object Oriented support, it
> really isn't an object oriented programming language yet. Java is Object
> Oriented. Object Oriented programming is easier when you are working
> with a large number of programmers. It helps breakdown the problems into
> smaller units which can be written by individuals who don't have to know
> how the other programmers are writing their modules.
> 
> 7. Learning curve. PHP is fairly easy to learn and easier than Java.
> 
> 8. Graphics. PHP is slow at rendering graphics on the fly. As for Java,
> I haven't tried it but as an interpreted language I would assume that it
> would be slow as well unless.... See number 9.
> 
> 9. Compiling. Well if you want, you can compile Java code serverside for
> better performance. I don't know of a PHP compiler as of yet.
> 
> 10. Compatibility. If you use Java client side, you will run into
> compatibility problems. If the user is using one of the newer Browsers,
> they "may" have java enabled. An older browser probably doesn't have
> java support.
> 
> 11. PHP isn't a very mature programming language. With PHP, you are able
> to do lots but it is still lacking really good string functions. I would
> assume Java has much better string function support. But on the other
> hand PHP was written for the webmaster. It has lots of features that
> make using for rendering webpages a dream.
> 
> Feel free to add more.
> 
> We here at eWaddle are using PHP. Our goal is to reach a wide audience
> and maybe even people using lynx and other non-graphical browsers. As
> such, PHP is more than sufficient for the Job. We are using database
> access and
> have setup a news and discussion site for the open sources community.
> Come tryout our site. I encourage you to register, read and post.
> 
> Keep a watch on our site as we plan to release the eWaddle code as open
> source later this year.
> 
> Mark Lane
> Senior Programmer
> http://www.ewaddle.com
> 
> 
> --------------19BE49B4315A4F1718400EDB
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
> <html>
> Brad Willcott wrote:
> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
> <p>Hi there.
> <p>Firstly, this is NOT a challenge for a fight to the death, but a serious
> request for real-world experience advise. So no flames please.
> <p>I am trying to decide on a company standard for Web development. I am
> in the process of converting the company's servers from M$ NT Server 4
> to RedHat 6.2 Linux. This, ofcourse includes the Web server. I am pretty
> much sold on using Apache, and have already got an experimental server
> running with modules for: Perl, SSL, PHP and FrontPage 2000 Extensions.
> <p>My question to you folks, is what are the reasons for/against using
> Java (not Javascript) and/or PHP as my company's web development language?
> As yet I have no preferrance for either apart from PHP's Open Source philosophy.
> I am interested in information on such things as: Learning curve, development/maintenance
> time, flexibility, accessing back-end Oracle databases, simplicity, power
> functions, etc.
> <p>Perhaps you may feel it benefitial to use both. Why? Why not?
> <p>We will be developing Web sites of varied styles and complexities. Many
> accessing back-end databases requiring complex relationships and integrity
> checking. Some will have two views of the database: Client/Customer view,
> and Company/Data Maintenance view. I'm looking to develop browser based
> data systems.
> <p>So, I wish to thank you all, in advance for your input to this discussion.
> <p>Brad Willcott
> <br>Manager, Client Projects
> <br>EW Systems, Australia
> <br>+612 6232 6342
> <br>&lt;<a href="mailto:brad@ewsystems.com.au">brad@ewsystems.com.au</a>>
> <br>&nbsp;
> <br>&nbsp;
> <br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
> Well to start out with lets look at the similarities.
> <p>1. Both PHP and Java are interpreted. Meaning they have to be converted
> to machine code at Run-time unlike C which is precompiled and faster.
> <p>2. Both are easy to learn if you know C/C++ and easier than C.
> <p>3. Both can access your server and have built-in commands for doing
> so. You may need to install an Oracle library for Java, I don't know.
> <p>If someone can think of more similarities add them.
> <p>Differences
> <p>1. Java can be Run on either the server or the client. PHP pages are
> rendered prior to sending to the client so they are server side. But the
> client has to support Java.
> <p>2. Java can render pages as pop-up java applets on the client and offer
> more flexibility as they aren't limited to HTML, JavaScript, ActiveX stuff
> like browsers are. (I am distinquishing the difference between using Java
> engine for a applet as opposed to the browser itself minus the Java Engine.)
> <p>3. For Client side information that is using a continuous feed i.e.
> Stock Ticker. Java is the way to go. I have seen the PHP chat program and
> it is slow.
> <p>4. Security. PHP is more secure than Java. Java applets crash browsers
> and tend to be buggy. PHP on the other hand is considered pretty secure
> as the engine runs as part of the apache server. This means that Apache
> doesn't have to fork another program to render the pages serverside.
> <p>5. Open Source. Because PHP is open source you can compile new commands
> to speed up page rendering or add more PHP commands.
> <p>6. Object oriented. Despite PHP's limited Object Oriented support, it
> really isn't an object oriented programming language yet. Java is Object
> Oriented. Object Oriented programming is easier when you are working with
> a large number of programmers. It helps breakdown the problems into smaller
> units which can be written by individuals who don't have to know how the
> other programmers are writing their modules.
> <p>7. Learning curve. PHP is fairly easy to learn and easier than Java.
> <p>8. Graphics. PHP is slow at rendering graphics on the fly. As for Java,
> I haven't tried it but as an interpreted language I would assume that it
> would be slow as well unless.... See number 9.
> <p>9. Compiling. Well if you want, you can compile Java code serverside
> for better performance. I don't know of a PHP&nbsp;compiler as of yet.
> <p>10. Compatibility. If you use Java client side, you will run into compatibility
> problems. If the user is using one of the newer Browsers, they "may" have
> java enabled. An older browser probably doesn't have java support.
> <p>11. PHP isn't a very mature programming language. With PHP, you are
> able to do lots but it is still lacking really good string functions. I
> would assume Java has much better string function support. But on the other
> hand PHP was written for the webmaster. It has lots of features that make
> using for rendering webpages a dream.
> <p>Feel free to add more.
> <p>We here at eWaddle are using PHP. Our goal is to reach a wide audience
> and maybe even people using lynx and other non-graphical browsers. As such,
> PHP&nbsp;is more than sufficient for the Job. We are using database access
> and
> <br>have setup a news and discussion site for the open sources community.
> Come tryout our site. I encourage you to register, read and post.
> <p>Keep a watch on our site as we plan to release the eWaddle code as open
> source later this year.
> <p>Mark Lane
> <br>Senior Programmer
> <br><A HREF="http://www.ewaddle.com">http://www.ewaddle.com</A>
> <br>&nbsp;</html>
> 
> --------------19BE49B4315A4F1718400EDB--
> 

-- 
Tim Cross
NorthNet Internet Services
mailto:tcross@northnet.com.au
phone:+61 2 6772 5973

Brad,
	I'm not experienced at using PHP, but I am experienced with Java and
web applications. I assume you are evaluating a server-side language --
while Java applets work well in Intranet environments there are not
enough good JVMs in people's browsers for non-trivial applets to be a
good idea, IMHO.
	Java on the server, with JSP (Java Server Pages) and Java Servlets are
a Good Idea.
	For us, PHP is simply not an option, as we are developing an
application that happens to have a web front end. We need several
100KSLOC of business logic which can be used from whatever interface we
decide to write.
	Given that your platform is Linux, Java wouldn't have been an option
until recently, as there wasn't a really good JVM for it. Sun and
Inprise now support Linux with a 1.2.2 JDK, so that isn't an issue.
	The main advantage I see to Java is that it is a 'real' programming
language with a full OO featureset, giving you the modularity,
scalability (in terms of lines of code), reuse and maintainability you
want. There's also plenty of free third party software available -- e.g.
XML parsers, HTML generation libraries.
	The learning curve for Java is very quick if you are coming from C++
(just stop deleteing :-) There are certainly more experienced Java
programmers around than PHP programmers.
	Java has much faster development time in comparison to C++, due to a
better library, and (more importantly) to garbage collection.
	Java connects very well to Oracle databases -- Oracle has 'bet the
farm' on Java, and in fact has a web server and servlet engine built
into the DB server in Oracle8i. This has the advantage of less
communication overhead between the servlet and the DB, although I
haven't used it myself so I don't know how effective this is.
	I imagine PHP is simpler than Java for simpler things.
	I'm not sure what you mean by 'power functions'?
	I think that a model which takes advantage of Java's strengths is to
combine JSPs and servlets -- the servlet processes a request, using the
parameters to instantiate a Java object which contains the data needed
for the response page. This is given to a JSP which uses it to produce
an HTML page. By doing things this way, the only code embedded in the
JSP page is simple iteration, conditional and member access code. The
business logic is all in classes used by the servlet. There are
certainly other options. Have a look at
http://www.servlets.com/soapbox/problems-jsp.html, http://webmacro.org
and look at Cocoon from java.apache.org.
	To me, the really important thing is to have a framework that is
servlet based, so that you have access to the full power of Java. If
someone wrote a PHP servlet, so that simple pages could be done with PHP
but more complex stuff would be able to call Java with no overhead, that
would be great -- as long as you made sure that you didn't duplicate
business logic in both environments, which would cause maintenance
hassles.
	The question I'd ask of PHP is: what do you do when PHP isn't enough?
(e.g. when you find you want a serious in memory data structure) There
may be a good answer to this question -- I don't know PHP well enough to
be sure.

Hope this helps,
	Tom
	

Brad Willcott wrote:
> 
> Hi there.
> 
> Firstly, this is NOT a challenge for a fight to the death, but a
> serious request for real-world experience advise. So no flames please.
> 
> I am trying to decide on a company standard for Web development. I am
> in the process of converting the company's servers from M$ NT Server 4
> to RedHat 6.2 Linux. This, ofcourse includes the Web server. I am
> pretty much sold on using Apache, and have already got an experimental
> server running with modules for: Perl, SSL, PHP and FrontPage 2000
> Extensions.
> 
> My question to you folks, is what are the reasons for/against using
> Java (not Javascript) and/or PHP as my company's web development
> language? As yet I have no preferrance for either apart from PHP's
> Open Source philosophy. I am interested in information on such things
> as: Learning curve, development/maintenance time, flexibility,
> accessing back-end Oracle databases, simplicity, power functions, etc.
> 
> Perhaps you may feel it benefitial to use both. Why? Why not?
> 
> We will be developing Web sites of varied styles and complexities.
> Many accessing back-end databases requiring complex relationships and
> integrity checking. Some will have two views of the database:
> Client/Customer view, and Company/Data Maintenance view. I'm looking
> to develop browser based data systems.
> 
> So, I wish to thank you all, in advance for your input to this
> discussion.