🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:18:00 +1100, The Man wrote:


> 1. Support for wireless networks (I mean the standard wireless network
> you find in most homes) is poor/flaky.

In the nature of the beast.

> 2. Sharing printers
> 3. Sharing files

Samba, for both those.

The Man <man@man.com> writes:

>I've been fiddling with Linux on and off for a couple of years and just 
>installed an excellent distro, Linux Mint. It's probably the most user 
>friendly distro I've used to date, more so than Ubuntu (upon which it's 
>based)

>But it still fails as a user friendly system for non-geeky types (which 
>given this is Usenet must exclude anyone here) for the following reasons:

>1. Support for wireless networks (I mean the standard wireless network 
>you find in most homes) is poor/flaky.
>2. Sharing printers
>3. Sharing files


>There appears to be no easy way to manage any of the above 3 issues.

All three are easily managed.
I have no idea what Mint is like, I use Mandriva, which is also a pretty
user friendly distro.
It has a GUI for doing wireless networks. I have no idea what "poor/flakey"
means 
Cups shares printers easily.
nfs or samba shares files easily.


>As a standalone PC o/s with an attached laser printer, camera and 
>external HD Linux Mint does everything one could reasonably ask of a 
>home PC, including video, sound, word processing etc. As a member of a 
>home network it is less so.

>Comments? I really hope the community can produce an O/s to rival MS and 

There is nothing here to comment on. You make some  claims backed
up by no information whatsoever, and want comments?

>Apple but to do that Linux needs to be easier to set up and configure a 
>well behaved member of a network than it is as present. I really don't 
>want to know for example anything to do with a command line run thing 
>like Samba for example. I'm sure it lurks under OS X somewhere but it's 
>nicely hidden.

Try draksambashare under Mandriva. Mint might well have something similar.

In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:18:03 GMT
Unruh <unruh-spam@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:
> The Man <man@man.com> writes:
>>There appears to be no easy way to manage any of the above 3 issues.
>
> All three are easily managed.
> I have no idea what Mint is like, I use Mandriva, which is also a pretty
> user friendly distro.
> It has a GUI for doing wireless networks. I have no idea what "poor/flakey"
> means 

Usually it means "I have a wireless chip made by someone who hasn't
released enough information for the community to make a decent driver
for it".

Still too common alas.  Sometimes the madwifi ones are worth trying.

Other ones can only be managed via ndis and using the windows driver.

The madwifi driver does't tend to be included in most distros, not
sure why.  The ndis setup is hard to auto setup and there's issues
about including the Windows DLLs in a distro.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:18:03 GMT
> Unruh <unruh-spam@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> The Man <man@man.com> writes:
>>> There appears to be no easy way to manage any of the above 3 issues.
>> All three are easily managed.
>> I have no idea what Mint is like, I use Mandriva, which is also a pretty
>> user friendly distro.
>> It has a GUI for doing wireless networks. I have no idea what "poor/flakey"
>> means 
> 
> Usually it means "I have a wireless chip made by someone who hasn't
> released enough information for the community to make a decent driver
> for it".
> 
> Still too common alas.  Sometimes the madwifi ones are worth trying.

My wireless works nicely but then again I'm a geek.

> 
> Other ones can only be managed via ndis and using the windows driver.
> 
> The madwifi driver does't tend to be included in most distros, not
> sure why.  The ndis setup is hard to auto setup and there's issues
> about including the Windows DLLs in a distro.
> 
> Zebee

The point I'm trying to make is that Linux is just too complex for 
average users to set up as a member of a mixed network. Or am I wrong? I 
would like nothing more than Linux to be widely available in a place 
like officeworks.

My dear mother runs Mint on her home PC, she's happy as can be, but 
we've never attempted to network that with her vista basic laptop; I 
can't get my head around Samba, not enough time.

In aus.computers.linux on Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:14:14 +1100
The Man <man@man.com> wrote:
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that Linux is just too complex for 
> average users to set up as a member of a mixed network. Or am I wrong? I 
> would like nothing more than Linux to be widely available in a place 
> like officeworks.

Wrong and not wrong.

SOme things don't work as well as they could, for various reasons.
Some under control of the distro maintainer some not.

But...  if  "easy" means "just like i'm used to so I know instantly
what to do" then it will never happen.

These days you can't find someone who has never used a Windows
computer, but I bet if you find someone who has done little to none
and get them to do something complex on Windows without help...


> My dear mother runs Mint on her home PC, she's happy as can be, but 
> we've never attempted to network that with her vista basic laptop; I 
> can't get my head around Samba, not enough time.

Exactly.  You don't want to do something you don't know how to do -
it's not the distro's fault.

Zebee

"The Man" <man@man.com> wrote in message 
news:00055583$0$2139$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> I've been fiddling with Linux on and off for a couple of years and just 
> installed an excellent distro, Linux Mint. It's probably the most user 
> friendly distro I've used to date, more so than Ubuntu (upon which it's 
> based)
>
> But it still fails as a user friendly system for non-geeky types (which 
> given this is Usenet must exclude anyone here) for the following reasons:
>

> 1. Support for wireless networks (I mean the standard wireless network you 
> find in most homes) is poor/flaky.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1024472

> 2. Sharing printers
CUPS

> 3. Sharing files
Samba,  NFS


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The Man <man@man.com> writes:

>The point I'm trying to make is that Linux is just too complex for 
>average users to set up as a member of a mixed network. Or am I wrong?

Linux WiFi connectivity is very simple nowadays. At McDonalds the other
day I picked up their "FREE WiFi" brochure and I was surprised at how
much more complicated it is to configure Windows XP and Windows Vista
clients versus Mac OSX and Linux.

Here are the instructions for Windows XP:

1. Go to Start, Control Panel then Network Connections
2. Click View Status next to Wireless Networks Connection.
3. Click on the Wireless Networks tab.
4. Highlight McDonald's FREE WiFi in the Preferred Networks section.
   If no wireless networks are displayed, ensure your wireless switch
   is on and/or wireless network list is refreshed.
5. Click on Configure or Properties and ensure that all details are
   as (fig.b), then select OK.
6. Click on the General tab.
7. Highlight the Internet Protocol TCP/IP option (fig.c)
8. Click on Properties.
9. Select Obtain an IP address automatically.
10. Select Obtain DNS server address automatically.
11. Select OK.
12. Open your web browser and go to Tools.
13. Select Internet Options
14. Select Connections.
15. Under LAN settings, open the window for Local Area Network (LAN)
    settings.
16. Ensure the following options are NOT selected:
    Automatically detect settings
    Use automatic configuration script
    Use a proxy server for your LAN.
17. Select OK.
18. If you have had to change any settings during this configuration
    process, please restart your laptop.

And the instructions for Windows Vista (even longer, can you believe
it?)

1. Go to Start, Control Panel, Network and Internet
2. Go to Network and Sharing Center.
3. Go to Manage Wireless Networks.
4. Make sure McDonald's FREE WiFi is positioned on the top of the list
   by moving it up if needed. If no wireless networks are displayed,
   ensure your wireless switch is on.
5. Highlight McDonald's FREE WiFi
6. Right click on it.
7. Select Properties.
8. Ensure all details are as (fig.1), then select OK.
9. Close the Manage Wireless Networks screen.
10. Go to Manage Network Connections.
11. Right click on Wireless Network Connection.
12. Click on Properties.
13. Click Continue.
14. Highlight the Internet Protocol Version 4 option (fig.2)
15. Click on Properties.
16. Select Obtain an IP address automatically.
17. Select Obtain DNS server address automatically.
18. Select OK.
19. Open your web browser and go to Tools.
20. Select Internet Options
21. Select Connections.
22. Under LAN settings, open the window for Local Area Network (LAN)
    settings.
23. Ensure the following options are NOT selected:
    Automatically detect settings
    Use automatic configuration script
    Use a proxy server for your LAN.
24. Select OK.
25. If you have had to change any settings during this configuration
    process, please restart your laptop.

Here are the Mac OSX instructions:

1. Click on the AirPort icons in the toolbar
2. Select Turn AirPort On
3. Select McDonald's FREE WiFi from the list of available wireless
networks.

Finally, here are the Linux instructions. I'm using a recent
Ubuntu, but any distro will work if NetworkManager is installed:

1. Click on the NetworkManager icon on the toolbar.
2. Select McDonald's FREE WiFi.

Wow, what a difference that was. 18 discrete actions required
for Windows XP, 25 (!) for Windows Vista. 3 for Mac, and 2 for
Linux. Now you tell me which system is not user-friendly?
-- 
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PGP Key fingerprint = B3ED 6894 8E49 1770 C24A  67E3 6266 6EB9 4184 87E7

Scooby Doo <notme@nospam.gmail.com> writes:

>The Man <man@man.com> writes:

>>The point I'm trying to make is that Linux is just too complex for 
>>average users to set up as a member of a mixed network. Or am I wrong?

>Linux WiFi connectivity is very simple nowadays. At McDonalds the other
>day I picked up their "FREE WiFi" brochure and I was surprised at how
>much more complicated it is to configure Windows XP and Windows Vista
>clients versus Mac OSX and Linux.

>Here are the instructions for Windows XP:

>1. Go to Start, Control Panel then Network Connections
>2. Click View Status next to Wireless Networks Connection.
>3. Click on the Wireless Networks tab.
>4. Highlight McDonald's FREE WiFi in the Preferred Networks section.
>   If no wireless networks are displayed, ensure your wireless switch
>   is on and/or wireless network list is refreshed.
>5. Click on Configure or Properties and ensure that all details are
>   as (fig.b), then select OK.
>6. Click on the General tab.
>7. Highlight the Internet Protocol TCP/IP option (fig.c)
>8. Click on Properties.
>9. Select Obtain an IP address automatically.
>10. Select Obtain DNS server address automatically.
>11. Select OK.
>12. Open your web browser and go to Tools.
>13. Select Internet Options
>14. Select Connections.
>15. Under LAN settings, open the window for Local Area Network (LAN)
>    settings.
>16. Ensure the following options are NOT selected:
>    Automatically detect settings
>    Use automatic configuration script
>    Use a proxy server for your LAN.
>17. Select OK.
>18. If you have had to change any settings during this configuration
>    process, please restart your laptop.

>And the instructions for Windows Vista (even longer, can you believe
>it?)

>1. Go to Start, Control Panel, Network and Internet
>2. Go to Network and Sharing Center.
>3. Go to Manage Wireless Networks.
>4. Make sure McDonald's FREE WiFi is positioned on the top of the list
>   by moving it up if needed. If no wireless networks are displayed,
>   ensure your wireless switch is on.
>5. Highlight McDonald's FREE WiFi
>6. Right click on it.
>7. Select Properties.
>8. Ensure all details are as (fig.1), then select OK.
>9. Close the Manage Wireless Networks screen.
>10. Go to Manage Network Connections.
>11. Right click on Wireless Network Connection.
>12. Click on Properties.
>13. Click Continue.
>14. Highlight the Internet Protocol Version 4 option (fig.2)
>15. Click on Properties.
>16. Select Obtain an IP address automatically.
>17. Select Obtain DNS server address automatically.
>18. Select OK.
>19. Open your web browser and go to Tools.
>20. Select Internet Options
>21. Select Connections.
>22. Under LAN settings, open the window for Local Area Network (LAN)
>    settings.
>23. Ensure the following options are NOT selected:
>    Automatically detect settings
>    Use automatic configuration script
>    Use a proxy server for your LAN.
>24. Select OK.
>25. If you have had to change any settings during this configuration
>    process, please restart your laptop.

>Here are the Mac OSX instructions:

>1. Click on the AirPort icons in the toolbar
>2. Select Turn AirPort On
>3. Select McDonald's FREE WiFi from the list of available wireless
>networks.

>Finally, here are the Linux instructions. I'm using a recent
>Ubuntu, but any distro will work if NetworkManager is installed:

>1. Click on the NetworkManager icon on the toolbar.
>2. Select McDonald's FREE WiFi.

>Wow, what a difference that was. 18 discrete actions required
>for Windows XP, 25 (!) for Windows Vista. 3 for Mac, and 2 for
>Linux. Now you tell me which system is not user-friendly?

To be fair, you might well have to do more and actually select or change
some of the config options as well, but the kicker is that last
"If you have had to change any settings during this configuration
>    process, please restart your laptop"

Sheesh. Having to restart your laptop anytime you change anything in a
wireless setup? That is insane.

On 17/03/2009 12:17 AM, Scooby Doo wrote:
> [snip]
> Wow, what a difference that was. 18 discrete actions required
> for Windows XP, 25 (!) for Windows Vista. 3 for Mac, and 2 for
> Linux. Now you tell me which system is not user-friendly?

If you can get to this point with Linux, you are doing well.
Too often, though, you have to pass through the madwifi/ndis/etc 
rite-of-passage first.

James C <enough.already@no.more.spam.please> writes:

>On 17/03/2009 12:17 AM, Scooby Doo wrote:
>> [snip]
>> Wow, what a difference that was. 18 discrete actions required
>> for Windows XP, 25 (!) for Windows Vista. 3 for Mac, and 2 for
>> Linux. Now you tell me which system is not user-friendly?

>If you can get to this point with Linux, you are doing well.
>Too often, though, you have to pass through the madwifi/ndis/etc 
>rite-of-passage first.

Actually you also need to install the Windows driver on Windows as well --
vista, XP, 2000,... all may have different drivers. Admittedly the
manufacturer will often give you the drivers, and you should yell at them
for not giving you the Linux drivers. The great advantage is that on Linux,
even if they do not, you can often get the device working. Unlike in
Windows, if the manufacturer forgets to give you the Vista driver, you are
SHOL.

In aus.computers.linux on Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:29:52 GMT
James C <enough.already@no.more.spam.please> wrote:
> On 17/03/2009 12:17 AM, Scooby Doo wrote:
>> [snip]
>> Wow, what a difference that was. 18 discrete actions required
>> for Windows XP, 25 (!) for Windows Vista. 3 for Mac, and 2 for
>> Linux. Now you tell me which system is not user-friendly?
>
> If you can get to this point with Linux, you are doing well.
> Too often, though, you have to pass through the madwifi/ndis/etc 
> rite-of-passage first.

Getting less so, but yes, still more than you should.

Which isn't Linux's fault of course, but end users don't know or care
about that.

Zebee

On 17/03/2009 8:51 AM, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.computers.linux on Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:29:52 GMT
> James C <enough.already@no.more.spam.please> wrote:
>> On 17/03/2009 12:17 AM, Scooby Doo wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> Wow, what a difference that was. 18 discrete actions required
>>> for Windows XP, 25 (!) for Windows Vista. 3 for Mac, and 2 for
>>> Linux. Now you tell me which system is not user-friendly?
>> If you can get to this point with Linux, you are doing well.
>> Too often, though, you have to pass through the madwifi/ndis/etc 
>> rite-of-passage first.
> 
> Getting less so, but yes, still more than you should.
> 
> Which isn't Linux's fault of course, but end users don't know or care
> about that.

Even trying to buy a "supported" wifi dongle/card is hard, as the Linux 
support is based on the internal chipset -- which the dongle/card 
manufacturers can vary at will and is not shown on the product's 
packaging.  You don't know for sure what you're buying until you open 
the blister pack, plug it in and run lsusb  ... :-(

Scooby Doo <notme@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
> The Man <man@man.com> writes:
> 
> >The point I'm trying to make is that Linux is just too complex for 
> >average users to set up as a member of a mixed network. Or am I wrong?
> 
> Linux WiFi connectivity is very simple nowadays. At McDonalds the other
> day I picked up their "FREE WiFi" brochure and I was surprised at how
> much more complicated it is to configure Windows XP and Windows Vista
> clients versus Mac OSX and Linux.
> 
> Here are the instructions for Windows XP:

[Utter non-sense deleted.]

> And the instructions for Windows Vista (even longer, can you believe
> it?)

[Same.]

> Here are the Mac OSX instructions:
> 
> 1. Click on the AirPort icons in the toolbar
> 2. Select Turn AirPort On
> 3. Select McDonald's FREE WiFi from the list of available wireless
> networks.
> 
> Finally, here are the Linux instructions. I'm using a recent
> Ubuntu, but any distro will work if NetworkManager is installed:
> 
> 1. Click on the NetworkManager icon on the toolbar.
> 2. Select McDonald's FREE WiFi.

  And that's *exactly* as you would do it under XP/Vista/<whatever>!

  Bummer heh, when *facts* get in the way of bias?

> Wow, what a difference that was. 18 discrete actions required
> for Windows XP, 25 (!) for Windows Vista. 3 for Mac, and 2 for
> Linux. Now you tell me which system is not user-friendly?

  Sorry to rain on your parade, but I have two exact same machines
(netbooks/mini-laptops), one with Linux (Linpus, a Fedora derivative)
and one with XP, and there's not an iota difference in this respect.