Thread View: aus.science
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Started by DonH
Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:20
Flight cancelled
Author: DonH
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:20
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:20
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Safety is the prime concern, say airlines, and fair enough too. However, the airline ticket represents a contract between paying passenger and airline, so breach of this contract is not to be taken too lightly. Not that airlines do, but it might be necessary for an emergency clause to be inserted, or travel insurance updated, so the average mug is not obliged to doss down in airport for the duration. That is, proper accommodation provided, or compensation paid. Volcanic dust-clouds? Yes, we can understand that jet engines were designed on the assumption of air purity, and intake of sand, volcanic ash, or seagulls, doesn't help. But is that the only reason why flying through volcanic ash is impossible? Would abrasive action on the fuselage erode the metal? If volcanic ash clouds are to become a regular thing, then the airline which designs an ash-proof plane will scoop the field. Ash filters? Rocket propulsion?
Re: Flight cancelled
Author: Geoff Lock
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 04:37
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 04:37
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On 22/06/2011 4:20 AM, DonH wrote: > Volcanic dust-clouds? Yes, we can understand that jet engines were > designed on the assumption of air purity, and intake of sand, volcanic ash, > or seagulls, doesn't help. Don't think it is a good idea to fly thru an ash cloud unless it is very very light particulates - submicron level? > But is that the only reason why flying through volcanic ash is impossible? Probably not impossible to fly thru and not the only reason but MIGHT be difficult to keep the plane staying up in the air after that :) > Would abrasive action on the fuselage erode the metal? Probably but I would think that the turbines would cop it as well plus the ash would probably clog up bits in the turbines. Also additional weight from ash sticking to the plane? Changes in controlling various bits of the plane? > If volcanic ash clouds are to become a regular thing, then the airline > which designs an ash-proof plane will scoop the field. Ash filters? Rocket > propulsion? Plus flying at different heights? Blimps? Catapaults? Flocks of large African swallows? :)
Re: Flight cancelled
Author: DonH
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 18:28
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 18:28
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"Geoff Lock" <glock@home> wrote in message news:4e01716a$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au... > On 22/06/2011 4:20 AM, DonH wrote: > >> Volcanic dust-clouds? Yes, we can understand that jet engines were >> designed on the assumption of air purity, and intake of sand, volcanic >> ash, >> or seagulls, doesn't help. > > Don't think it is a good idea to fly thru an ash cloud unless it is very > very light particulates - submicron level? > >> But is that the only reason why flying through volcanic ash is >> impossible? > > Probably not impossible to fly thru and not the only reason but MIGHT be > difficult to keep the plane staying up in the air after that :) > >> Would abrasive action on the fuselage erode the metal? > > Probably but I would think that the turbines would cop it as well plus the > ash would probably clog up bits in the turbines. > > Also additional weight from ash sticking to the plane? Changes in > controlling various bits of the plane? > >> If volcanic ash clouds are to become a regular thing, then the airline >> which designs an ash-proof plane will scoop the field. Ash filters? >> Rocket >> propulsion? > > Plus flying at different heights? Blimps? Catapaults? Flocks of large > African swallows? :) # There was a retired BOAC captain on (the) 7.30 (Report) last night, recalling how his plane flew through an ash cloud over Indonesia, where all four engines failed. The crew didn't know cause at the time, but glided down, where, fortunately, the engines restarted. Landed safely; even though the cockpit windows were so opaque (due to ash abrasion) that visibility was limited to a couple of small clear spots. It seems Indonesia has lots of volcanoes, many active, so ash clouds are common. Presumably, flights can go above, around, or below - or through, if not too dense? "Man conquers Nature!" or can ignore it, is the assumption of AGW Sceptics and Deniers, yet a little thing, like an ash cloud, grounds the mighty jumbo jet. Can aeronautical engineers design an ash-proof jumbo?
Re: Flight cancelled
Author: Geoff Lock
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 04:13
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 04:13
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On 23/06/2011 4:28 AM, DonH wrote: > "Geoff Lock"<glock@home> wrote in message > news:4e01716a$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au... >> On 22/06/2011 4:20 AM, DonH wrote: >>> If volcanic ash clouds are to become a regular thing, then the airline >>> which designs an ash-proof plane will scoop the field. Ash filters? >>> Rocket >>> propulsion? >> >> Plus flying at different heights? Blimps? Catapaults? Flocks of large >> African swallows? :) > > # There was a retired BOAC captain on (the) 7.30 (Report) last night, > recalling how his plane flew through an ash cloud over Indonesia, where all > four engines failed. Saw that same interview. > It seems Indonesia has lots of volcanoes, many active, so ash clouds are > common. Presumably, flights can go above, around, or below - or through, if > not too dense? If it is light ash, yes, a plane could fly thru. > "Man conquers Nature!" or can ignore it, is the assumption of AGW > Sceptics and Deniers, yet a little thing, like an ash cloud, grounds the > mighty jumbo jet. > Can aeronautical engineers design an ash-proof jumbo? Probably given the relatively rare occurences of ash clouds which ground planes do you think they would bother?
Re: Flight cancelled
Author: DonH
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:05
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:05
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"Geoff Lock" <glock@home> wrote in message news:4e02bd57@dnews.tpgi.com.au... > On 23/06/2011 4:28 AM, DonH wrote: >> "Geoff Lock"<glock@home> wrote in message >> news:4e01716a$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au... >>> On 22/06/2011 4:20 AM, DonH wrote: > >>>> If volcanic ash clouds are to become a regular thing, then the >>>> airline >>>> which designs an ash-proof plane will scoop the field. Ash filters? >>>> Rocket >>>> propulsion? >>> >>> Plus flying at different heights? Blimps? Catapaults? Flocks of large >>> African swallows? :) >> >> # There was a retired BOAC captain on (the) 7.30 (Report) last night, >> recalling how his plane flew through an ash cloud over Indonesia, where >> all >> four engines failed. > > Saw that same interview. > >> It seems Indonesia has lots of volcanoes, many active, so ash clouds >> are >> common. Presumably, flights can go above, around, or below - or through, >> if >> not too dense? > > If it is light ash, yes, a plane could fly thru. > >> "Man conquers Nature!" or can ignore it, is the assumption of AGW >> Sceptics and Deniers, yet a little thing, like an ash cloud, grounds the >> mighty jumbo jet. >> Can aeronautical engineers design an ash-proof jumbo? > > Probably given the relatively rare occurences of ash clouds which ground > planes do you think they would bother? # It may depend on how polluted our skies become, whether from volcanic ash and other natural sources, or man-made. The air-intake of a jet engine is its weakness; but this may be avoided by indirect intake of air, where a hood enabled air to come from behind, and through filters. Abrased windows are another problem, but likely more easily solved. Yet, as you say, probability determines necessity. I think the seaplane was largely discontinued due to the large "flying boats" being liable to impact on floating debris (human origin), when taking-off or landing. But that may be only an excuse for scrapping them.
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