🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1992May12.191840.25641@pencom.com> gad@pencom.com writes:
>Running well would be stretching the truth just a bit John. IMHO,
>American cars do last forever, in that they continue to maintain the
>ability to propagate their mass down the highway with passengers. I
>don't believe that they do it safely or efficiently. A quick pass through
>the public housing areas will demonstrate this. Yes, those are old
>American cars that are still running, and most of them are smog belching
>death-traps.

No, most of those old cars are built like tanks.  My younger brother,
who doesn't have the luxury of being a computer programmer, can't afford
to buy new cars, and what he always buys is old, used, American cars.
You can't hardly find a '73 Datsun on the road - and that is back when
the imports really started being popular because of the gasoline shortages.

As for being "death traps", American cars are, and always have been, on
average much safer than Japanese cars.  Even Consumer Reports recognizes
as much.

>Hey John, I'm not complaining, I'm documenting facts. No where in my
>article did you see me say I hate my Navajo or voice any dislike.
>I submitted some basic facts for the review of the readers of the
>net, as I said, as a single data point. No more, and no less.
 
Sorry, it sounded like you weren't all that happy with your Navajo.

>You may consider them gadgets, but I find quite a few things that I
>personally like in the Japanese cars. Subtle things like the placement
>and the feel of switches and controls. Niceties like map lights that
>can be switched on and off independently of the cabin lights. 
 
Again, facts are that those gadgets are some of the first things to
break in a Japanese car.  And "map lights that can be switched on and
off" are in American cars as well.  Does every manufacturer provide
the same options?  No - nor do they provide the same "feel".  For
example, Ford has lousey cruise control controls, whereas I prefer
GM's much more.  Ford has a new, nicer windshield wiper control, but
last year GM's was better.  And I regulary drive Toyota's (I drive a
lot of rental cars - I regularly drive a lot of different cars) and
both Ford and GM (depending on year and make) beat at least Toyota
for control placement in my mind.

>John. you're telling me that I made a terrible mistake by relying on 
>all of my past experience in the process of making a very expensive
>purchase? I think not. As I alluded to in my previous article, my
>personal experience with American made cars, Ford in particular, have
>not been very good. On the other hand, my personal experiences with
>Japanese made cars has been very good.

Yes.

Ford, for example, has the highest quality in the industry.  You, for
all your bad experiences with a Ford just bought a Ford, like it or
not.  For all of your bad personal experiences with American made cars,
the car that is now sitting in the parking lot out there, IS an
American made car.

>Have you taken it in to get the transmission fixed so it won't roll
>away while in park? Also the rear bumper, part of that super chassis,
>needs to have reinforcements installed so that it doesn't fall off 
>when towing. Check out Consumer Reports for more detailed info.

No, because it has yet to roll away while in park.

If you want to play the recall game, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Japanese cars =do= get recalled.  Those European cars that you think
outrank American cars =do= have bizarre accidents and get recalled as
well.

>On the pricing issue, the Navajo that I purchased has the following:
>4 wheel drive, leather interior, towing package, sunroof, basically
>every available option. Actually priced the exact same setup at Ford
>and it came out more expensive to buy the Ford... (by over $500). I
>won't even digress into the discussion of dealers, suffice to say I
>am VERY happy with how I'm treated at the Mazda dealership, sales
>and service (and I HATE SalesSlime). 

I think you have three things that we don't - leather, 4WD, and the
sunroof.  I don't know that $5K is a fair price for those three.  I
do know that the leather seats in my Pontiac and the sunroof didn't
add near $3,500, and the 4WD was a $1,500 option, as I recall.  We
did beat the dealer up on the price of the vehicle (based on Consumer
Reports info he made about $300 or less on the sale).  And out Ford
dealer is nationally recognized for excellent service.

But again, I'm glad to see that you reviewed the available cars out
there and bought one that was Made in America by Ford.

>I'm no audiophile, but I did pay my bills thru school working in
>a stereo repairshop. I agree that American made highend equipment 
>is good, but the low end stuff sucked, to be frank. Specifically,
>Philco and Delco. 

They don't make the lowend stuff in this country any more.  The Delco
in my Pontiac was made in Japan, and has been for years.  I can't
vouche for Philco.  Specifically, the Delco in my car that was made
by non-illiterate, non-lazy Japanese workers BROKE TWICE.  [ And the
Japanese-built high-end "American designed" home stereo that I own has
broken twice as well, compared to zero times for the high-end American
made stereo owned by a friend of mine ].

If you look at actual things that break, as the Attorney General of
Florida did, the conclusion you will reach is that Japanese and
American car quality is identical.

>If you would like a more "professional" opinion on the auto make
>issue, I'd recommend stopping by Anderson Lane Body Shop and having
>a chat with the owner, Travis. You want find a more resolute supporter
>of American cars. He'll bend your ear for as long as you're willing to
>listen talking about why the Japanese are kicking our butt. He'll 
>point out things like modular design, closer fit tolerances, etc.
>I sat through it, and found his opinion to be very insightful.

And will he point out that American cars are cheaper to own and
maintain that American cars?  Will he show you the statistics that
are collected by the insurance companies, and not the ones that are
self-selected by the owners of the vehicles?

>I would love for American cars to beat the Japanese (Europe et al)
>in the marketplace. I hate to see America lose on any front,
>especially economic. We can institute stricter trade regulations,
>tariffs, etc. OR we can beat them the right way: by producing a
>superior product. Product Patriotism is the worse thing we can do
>right now. Until US manufacturers are competitive on the global
>market, we'll be losing the war. 

I started my love affair with American cars in 1987 when my ex-wife
forced me to look at American cars.  I thought, as you do, that we
built an inferior product.  But my wife wanted an Olds '98 with the
works.  We paid $23,000 for the car.  I started to realize how much
better of a deal we got when her sister bought a base model Volvo
and paid $24,000.  In 1988 I looked at American =and= foreign made
vehicles.  I looked at Hondas (and I can never say enough good things
about Honda), Nissans, Toyotas, etc., as well as Ford and GM.  My
final conclusion was that dollar for dollar and feature for feature,
the best built cars in the class I was looking for were made by
Pontiac.  The Toyotas and Nissans didn't have enough leg room for my
6'3" body, and the prices were outrageous - my Pontiac was $17,200
or so, and a comparable Nissan was over $25,000.

Do I think there are American made cars that are crap?  Yes.  You
may notice that I didn't mention Chrysler in there anywheres ...
But will my next car be Made in America?  Yup.  Because I can't
afford the luxury of a little tag that says "Made in Japan"
when it will only buy me a lower quality, higher priced, smaller,
less safe, more expensive to repair and maintain, vehicle.  All you
can claim about Japanese cars is that they just feel right.  The
Malcolm Baldridge award wasn't won by American Honda Motors, who
builds some of the finest cars Made in America - it was won by
Cadillac.  The manufacturer of the big car that creamed the little
car in the DoT film didn't complain - it was the Japanese manufacturer
that complained.  The insurance industry doesn't say that American
made cars are more expensive to maintain and repair - it's the cars
that are Made in Japan that have that distinction.  And the issue
of leg room for a 6'3" driver will get you nowheres.

These are objective facts, not subjective "it just feels right"-isms.
And the objective truth is that we ARE winning the war to make the
best cars in the world.  The car magazines are finally giving American
made cars the positive press they deserve.  And it's about time.  And
it would appear that voting with your wallet, you agree.  Because the
car sitting out in that parking lot RIGHT NOW disagrees with both of
your premises - it is both Made in America and a product of Ford, and
that speaks volumes about your prejudices.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Vida en La Republica de Tejas:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            |  Gov. Ann Richards after shooting her
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Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  hunting deer: "[It's] as boring as dirt."