🚀 go-pugleaf

John F. Haugh II writes
> In article <1992May12.191840.25641@pencom.com> gad@pencom.com writes:
> >Running well would be stretching the truth just a bit John. IMHO,
> >American cars do last forever, in that they continue to maintain the
> >ability to propagate their mass down the highway with passengers. I
> >don't believe that they do it safely or efficiently. A quick pass through
> >the public housing areas will demonstrate this. Yes, those are old
> >American cars that are still running, and most of them are smog belching
> >death-traps.
> 
> No, most of those old cars are built like tanks...  

I won't disagree with you there, they are built like tanks. 

> You can't hardly find a '73 Datsun on the road - and that is back when
> the imports really started being popular because of the gasoline shortages.

I just sold a 72 Datsun not too long ago, it was running great...

> As for being "death traps", American cars are, and always have been, on
> average much safer than Japanese cars.  Even Consumer Reports recognizes
> as much.

My usage of "Deathtraps" was in reference to their current state, usually
fairly delapidated.

> >Hey John, I'm not complaining, I'm documenting facts. No where in my
> >article did you see me say I hate my Navajo or voice any dislike.
> >I submitted some basic facts for the review of the readers of the
> >net, as I said, as a single data point. No more, and no less.
>  
> Sorry, it sounded like you weren't all that happy with your Navajo.

I like my Navajo, I just wish I didn't have problems with it...

> 
> >You may consider them gadgets, but I find quite a few things that I
> >personally like in the Japanese cars. Subtle things like the placement
> >and the feel of switches and controls. Niceties like map lights that
> >can be switched on and off independently of the cabin lights. 
>  
> Again, facts are that those gadgets are some of the first things to
> break in a Japanese car.  

My old 72 Datsun had all of its "gadgets" intact and functional when
I sold it.

> And "map lights that can be switched on and
> off" are in American cars as well.  Does every manufacturer provide
> the same options?  No - nor do they provide the same "feel".  For
> example, Ford has lousey cruise control controls, whereas I prefer
> GM's much more.  Ford has a new, nicer windshield wiper control, but
> last year GM's was better.  And I regulary drive Toyota's (I drive a
> lot of rental cars - I regularly drive a lot of different cars) and
> both Ford and GM (depending on year and make) beat at least Toyota
> for control placement in my mind.

I'm not familiar with Toyota, but I am always impressed when I drive
a Honda or my wife's Acura, all of the controls fall readily to hand,
and give a positive, tactile feel when engaged.

> >John. you're telling me that I made a terrible mistake by relying on 
> >all of my past experience in the process of making a very expensive
> >purchase? I think not. As I alluded to in my previous article, my
> >personal experience with American made cars, Ford in particular, have
> >not been very good. On the other hand, my personal experiences with
> >Japanese made cars has been very good.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Ford, for example, has the highest quality in the industry.  You, for
> all your bad experiences with a Ford just bought a Ford, like it or
> not.  For all of your bad personal experiences with American made cars,
> the car that is now sitting in the parking lot out there, IS an
> American made car.

I continue to disagree on this point John. If all of my personal experience
with a product is bad, I don't care who or how many people tell me it's
a good product, I'm not going to buy it.
 
> >Have you taken it in to get the transmission fixed so it won't roll
> >away while in park? Also the rear bumper, part of that super chassis,
> >needs to have reinforcements installed so that it doesn't fall off 
> >when towing. Check out Consumer Reports for more detailed info.
> 
> No, because it has yet to roll away while in park.

Don't you think it might be a little late to fix it after it's rolled
away? 
 
> If you want to play the recall game, you're barking up the wrong tree.
> Japanese cars =do= get recalled.  Those European cars that you think
> outrank American cars =do= have bizarre accidents and get recalled as
> well.

I didn't say anything about Japanese cars NOT getting recalled. You
keep talking in general terms when I'm giving specific examples. I
was talking about the one model that you used as an example of quality,
and citing my specific experience with that particular model. I agree that
recalls are not limited to any specific manufacturer...
 
> >On the pricing issue, the Navajo that I purchased has the following:
> >4 wheel drive, leather interior, towing package, sunroof, basically
> >every available option. Actually priced the exact same setup at Ford
> >and it came out more expensive to buy the Ford... (by over $500). I
> >won't even digress into the discussion of dealers, suffice to say I
> >am VERY happy with how I'm treated at the Mazda dealership, sales
> >and service (and I HATE SalesSlime). 
> 
> I think you have three things that we don't - leather, 4WD, and the
> sunroof.  I don't know that $5K is a fair price for those three.  I
> do know that the leather seats in my Pontiac and the sunroof didn't
> add near $3,500, and the 4WD was a $1,500 option, as I recall.  We
> did beat the dealer up on the price of the vehicle (based on Consumer
> Reports info he made about $300 or less on the sale).  And out Ford
> dealer is nationally recognized for excellent service.

If you look back at my original article, I was quoting MSRP. I can
assure you that I did NOT pay MSRP. I too used the Consumer Reports
Service. I let them have $500 over the CR quoted invoice price.

> But again, I'm glad to see that you reviewed the available cars out
> there and bought one that was Made in America by Ford.

Yes, I knew then and am reminded now that the Navajo was built by Ford.
I reviewed every sport utility vehicle that I could find: Cherokee,
4Runner, Pathfinder, Rodeo, Navajo, Explorer, Bravado, Jimmy, Blazer...
I passed on the Lamborghini (sp?). I narrowed the field to the Navajo/
Explorer and bought the Navajo because I got a better quote, and I had
very positive past experience with the dealership.
 
> >I'm no audiophile, but I did pay my bills thru school working in
> >a stereo repairshop. I agree that American made highend equipment 
> >is good, but the low end stuff sucked, to be frank. Specifically,
> >Philco and Delco. 
> 
> They don't make the lowend stuff in this country any more.  The Delco
> in my Pontiac was made in Japan, and has been for years.  I can't
> vouche for Philco.  Specifically, the Delco in my car that was made
> by non-illiterate, non-lazy Japanese workers BROKE TWICE.  [ And the
> Japanese-built high-end "American designed" home stereo that I own has
> broken twice as well, compared to zero times for the high-end American
> made stereo owned by a friend of mine ].
> 
> If you look at actual things that break, as the Attorney General of
> Florida did, the conclusion you will reach is that Japanese and
> American car quality is identical.

Is the Attorney General of Florida willing to pay my repair bills or
give me a ride while my "quality" car is in the shop?

> >If you would like a more "professional" opinion on the auto make
> >issue, I'd recommend stopping by Anderson Lane Body Shop and having
> >a chat with the owner, Travis. You want find a more resolute supporter
> >of American cars. He'll bend your ear for as long as you're willing to
> >listen talking about why the Japanese are kicking our butt. He'll 
> >point out things like modular design, closer fit tolerances, etc.
> >I sat through it, and found his opinion to be very insightful.
> 
> And will he point out that American cars are cheaper to own and
> maintain that American cars?  Will he show you the statistics that
> are collected by the insurance companies, and not the ones that are
> self-selected by the owners of the vehicles?

No, he'll talk about how he loves American cars (true patriot), but
how much easier, faster (re cheaper) it is for him to fix foreign
cars (Honda and Acura specifically).

I had the opportunity the other day to listen as the owner of the
Black Forest repair shop (local German Independent shop) bemoaned
the loss of his clientel. He continued that they were all now buying
Lexus models. When we joked to him "why don't you become a Lexus shop"
he replied "because they don't break". Now you know as well as I that
Lexus do and will break, but they have a strong market perception of
quality. That is what sells cars. All the bitching and moaning in the
world won't change that.

> >I would love for American cars to beat the Japanese (Europe et al)
> >in the marketplace. I hate to see America lose on any front,
> >especially economic. We can institute stricter trade regulations,
> >tariffs, etc. OR we can beat them the right way: by producing a
> >superior product. Product Patriotism is the worse thing we can do
> >right now. Until US manufacturers are competitive on the global
> >market, we'll be losing the war. 
> 
> I started my love affair with American cars in 1987 when my ex-wife
> forced me to look at American cars.  

Mine started in 1964 when I was born into a 2nd generation Oldsmobile
fanatic family. My father and my grandfather both love cars, my grand
father has some old Model A's that he has restored (yes, we know that
Oldsmobile didn't build the Model A). Both of these guys thought that
Olds were the crem de la crem of automobiles.

> I thought, as you do, that we built an inferior product.  

Ahhh, make no assumptions John. I don't believe that we necessarily
build inferior products. I do believe that we are losing quite a bit
of marketshare to the Japanese due to quality concerns, either real
or percieved. I'd like to state here, that if it is only a perception
problem, the onus is still on the American Car builders to correct
that perception. Putting the onus on potential customers to go find
out that American quality is good or great will never work.


> Do I think there are American made cars that are crap?  Yes.  You
> may notice that I didn't mention Chrysler in there anywheres ...
> But will my next car be Made in America?  Yup.  Because I can't
> afford the luxury of a little tag that says "Made in Japan"

I agree that crap can be built anywhere. I disagree that the little
tag is where tha additional cost is...

> when it will only buy me a lower quality, higher priced, smaller,
> less safe, more expensive to repair and maintain, vehicle.  All you
> can claim about Japanese cars is that they just feel right. 

No, John you seemed to have latched on to one comment and missed the
part where I talked about my personal experiences with American and
Japanese (and other) car makes. I listed some specific examples, both
good and bad, of cars that I have owned or used. 
	
> The
> Malcolm Baldridge award wasn't won by American Honda Motors, who
> builds some of the finest cars Made in America - it was won by
> Cadillac.  The manufacturer of the big car that creamed the little
> car in the DoT film didn't complain - it was the Japanese manufacturer
> that complained.  The insurance industry doesn't say that American
> made cars are more expensive to maintain and repair - it's the cars
> that are Made in Japan that have that distinction.  And the issue
> of leg room for a 6'3" driver will get you nowheres.

Well, as I stated earlier, I rely on my personal experiences more than
on who won what or on who says what. My personal experience has been
that American cars have been more expensive to maintain than Japanese.
Once again, the ones that I, George Durden, have owned and paid to fix.
It doesn't matter squat to me when I'm writing a big check to get a
car fixed if someones says "But George, it won a quality award".

As for safety, first I subscribe to the belief that the best way to
survive an accident is to avoid it. I, George Durden, feel more 
comfortable with the handling and braking characteristics of the
Japanese cars that I have owned/driven than their American counterparts.
Now, I'm sure that you can compare Corvettes and Civics and come away
with the opposite results, but I don't have the luxury of affording a
Corvette. Second, I had been driving a small japanese car that was
struck by a rather large American sedan, I survived unscathed and was
very happy with the protection that my vehicle afforded me. Once agian,
my personal experience takes top rating in my book.

> These are objective facts, not subjective "it just feels right"-isms.
> And the objective truth is that we ARE winning the war to make the
> best cars in the world.  

But John, if you make the best car in the world but nobody buys it,
have you really won the war???

> The car magazines are finally giving American
> made cars the positive press they deserve.  And it's about time.  

Maybe that will help the perception problem. To really win this war,
American Car Makers need to be positioned such that anywhere in the
world where somebody has the money to buy a car, they think "hey,
I better go look at those Ford/GM/Chrysler cars". If that takes
building better cars, doing more effective marketing, providing
better incentives, whatever, thats what we need to do to really 
win the war. Selling American cars to American people is good, but
selling American cars to everybody on the planet is better.

> And
> it would appear that voting with your wallet, you agree.  Because the
> car sitting out in that parking lot RIGHT NOW disagrees with both of
> your premises - it is both Made in America and a product of Ford, and
> that speaks volumes about your prejudices.

You're assuming that I have some premices other than just presenting my
personal experiences with the particular vehicle which you chose to 
use in your point. That is an incorrect assumption.

Prejudice is a strong word that I feel is not applicable here. I realize
both now and when I bought the Navajo that it is built by Ford. I made a
conscious decision to buy the Navajo because, of all the SUVs out there,
it best fit my needs and desires. I was also willing to take Ford at their
word that they have great quality. An action not exactly fitting with the 
prejudice label. I still like my Navajo quite a bit, I just wish it didn't
have the problems that I have experienced. Plain and Simple.
--
		      George A. Durden			
		  	.5K EX Pilot
		       Unix Mercenary
DoD #0039	     "No Risk, No Rush"		CMRA #106