🚀 go-pugleaf

[From Kenny Kitzke (990502.1500EDT)]

<Rick Marken (990430.1200)>

<That's because I think coercion is happening whenever a
stronger person (like a parent) unilaterally decides what
another person (like a kid) will do (even if what they decide
the kid will do is something "nice"), without being willing
to take into consideration what that other person might
actually want.>

So, you want to maintain that when a parent unilaterally decides that their
kid will never smoke cigarettes and tells them so it is coercion, regardless
of whether the parent knows or wants to know that the kid hates smoking,
regularly demonstrates against Joe Camel at school and would rather drink
poison than inhale a cigarette?

What remains solely in the mind of the parent cannot constitute coercion.  It
is just a want which involves the action or inaction of the kid.  For
coercion to be happening, the parent must behave and reveal the action
desired by the kid AND the kid must perceive that he must do the action he
does not want to do or the parent will use overwhelming force to make him
obey.  Anything less would not constitute coercion.

<It's hard to tell. I would say it's _not_ coercion if I'm
trying to figure out what A and B want and I'm not forcing
them to do what I _think_ they want to do.>

Well, on that we agree.  No unilateral intention by the parent regardless of
the desires of A and B, and no force used (or perhaps threatened) by the
parent on A and B; no coercion.

<But if I just force the kids to go to the beach with no regard for what
they say they want then, yes, I'd say it's still coercion.>

And, this is where we were last year.  8-(  If B wants to go to the beach,
she goes willingly and does not perceive any coercion.  If A wants to stay in
her room and listen to Meatloaf, but you force her to go to the beach, she
would experience coercion.

<I think it's PCT that will contribute to our understanding of coercion,
don't you?>

Yes, depending upon the definition of coercion.  8-)  Hopefully, coercion
would always be the behavior of last resort even for people who command
overwhelming force over the actions of others.  That seems like it may be a
blinding glimpse of the obvious.

I guess that a good understanding of PCT might help people capable of force
to restrain themselves more often and search harder for an action that will
get both parties what they want.  You know, like Jesse can do but Mr. Bill
can't.

Kenny