🚀 go-pugleaf

[From Fred Nickols (990502.0635)]--

>From Rick Marken (990430.0830)
>"Coercion" (control of behavior
>by force or the credible threat thereof) seemed like a pretty
>easily observed and explained control phenomenon but, apparently,
>it's not.

For me the sticking point here is what it's always been, the use of
"behavior."  Were you to say coercion is the control of another person's
"actions" by force or the credible threat thereof I'd have no problem with
the definition or with seeing how the coercee is caught up in the coercer's
control loop (i.e., the coercer is controlling for the coercee's actions).
I'm hardly the one to be a stickler on the use of "behavior" but having
been on the receiving end of some reminders that I was misusing the term in
a PCT sense, I'm mindful of it.

Regarding your question below, I don't mean to answer for Isaac, he can
answer for himself, but I will answer for me...

>If this seems reasonable, then maybe you could answer my
>question from the previous post:
>
>> Now you watch me tell both A and B to go sit in their
>> rooms and read Chaucer. You see both A and B instantly do
>> what they are told. How do you determine that I am coercing
>> B and not coercing A?

My answer is that YOU don't determine and you can't know.  The reason is as
I said in that short little post earlier: Coercion is in the eye of the
coercee, not the coercer.  Only A and B know if they're being coerced and
even if they tell you whether or not they feel that way all you can know is
what they're telling you.  I've not given the matter much thought but, I'd
also hazard the guess that neither you nor Bill P, on your best
collaborative day, could devise a test to see if A or B was feeling coerced.

What you probably can do is define coercion in ways that allow you to test
for that condition.  But, so long as what is being controlled is an
internal state instead of a perception of some external condition or state
of affairs, you'll whistle Dixie trying to test it.  That's why Skinner
opted for the "black box" view.
--

Regards,

Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting "Assistance at A Distance"
http://home.att.net/~nickols/distance.htm
nickols@worldnet.att.net
(609) 490-0095