🚀 go-pugleaf

[From Kenny Kitzke (990502.1000EDT)]

<Rick Marken (990430.1200)>

<What I am asking is how _you_ would describe my behavior.
All you see is me forcing both A and B to go to their rooms and
read Chaucer.>

You may have surmised that you forced both daughers into doing what you
wanted.  But A knows it was neither force nor parental authority that made
her go to her room to read Chaucer.  She did it to control her own
perceptions of what she wanted.

<You know nothing about what A and B want.>

And, if I do not, then you would not either, right?  You wouldn't know
whether they perceived they were coerced by your forceful words or deeds or
whether they perceived that reading Chaucer was a better use of their time
and were grateful to their dad for his suggestion.

<So what would you say am I doing? Coercing both? Coercing just B? Coercing
neither? Don't know enough to say?>

I would say that you are simply *behaving* (as PCT defines it; controlling
for your fatherly authority reference perception) and hoping to subsequently
observe another of your desired reference perceptions: that the girls quit
doing what they were doing and start reading Chaucer in their rooms.

If they do not do as you want; predictively you may decide to change your
behavior.  You may threaten them with punishment if they won't obey.  If that
behavior does not get you what you want, you may physically force them to sit
down in their rooms with a Chaucer book.

I think you will agree that you cannot actually force them to read the book
(short of forcing them to read it out loud to you).  No matter what you do,
you cannot force them to enjoy the action you demand.  IOW, you CANNOT
control the behavior of another person when behavior is understood to be the
control of one's perceptions in their own mind (comparator).

If coercion is present between two people, the coercer will only be able to
control some particular observable action of the coercee (a mere aspect of
the coercee's behavior as you like to say), unless you kill them.

I see coercing as a special type, or category, of behavior.  Under your
definition, it would be accurate to say that when I turn on my computer, I
coerced it.  IOW, every time I do something with an inanimate object, I would
be coercing it.  Does this use of language make any sense to you or to anyone
for understanding your behavior?

With other people, is it always coercion to say to your wife, "Make my dinner
ready at 5:30 PM, I'll be on the Internet for another hour." If not, what
would have to be occurring to make this behavior coercion?

Is all behavior aimed at what another person should do coercive?  Is there
coercion when the intended coercee does not believe that the person is
capable of or actually will use overwhelming force (even if both are true)?

For me, behavior should be described as coercive ONLY when BOTH a) the
coercer can and will use overwhelming force if the coercee does not behave
(act) as the coercer wants, and b) the action of the coercee which negates
the use of force is against his/her will (is a disturbance to one of the
coercee's referenced perceptions).

It would not be appropriate to describe your behavior as coercive unless and
until one or both of the daughters does something against their own free will
(purpose).  Otherwise, they are just behaving; they are not being coerced.

One could reasonably conclude they were being coerced when they resist or
show disagreement.  But, the lack of observable resistance would not be a
sign of no coercion.  They may feel forced against their will and reluctantly
obey.   Also, if they perceive what you tell them to do is what they also
want to do and willingly change their behavior, then there is no coercion.

So, third party observation may not definitively disclose a coercive
relationship between two other people.  It depends on whether the coercer
(father) intends to use overwhelming force if necessary to get the coercee
(girls) to do read Chaucer regardless of whether or not they willingly do so.
 Probably the only way to know for sure is for the third person to ask the
father and the daughters about how they perceived the interaction.

Rick, *coercing* is no more an appropriate term for what one with power is
doing when another willingly does what the authority wants than *helping* is
appropriate for describing the boy scout carrying a crippled old lady across
the street when she is waiting at the corner for a bus.

Helping requires shared (aligned) purposes between two people.  Coercing
requires one person forcing another person to do something the later does not
want to do.  Neither type of behavior can be determined from unilateral
intent or action.

Kenny

Kenny