🚀 go-pugleaf

[From Kenny Kitzke (990505.2120EDT)]

<Rick Marken (990504.1250)>

<I would just feel that my sense of decency (to
say nothing of my understanding of the nature of control) was
violated if I had to say that there is no coercion if I give
in and do what some bully (coercer) wants (so that my goals
are now aligned with his).>

Well, your sense of decency is just too precious to me to disturb you any
longer.  I finally grasp why you battle this issue so hard.  And, as written
I agree with you.

If a person gives in (unwillingly) to the bully's demand, it would be
coercion by both our definitions.  But, while the wimp resists giving in, I
would not call it coercion.  Would you?  NATO is not coercing Yugoslavia,
yet.  All NATO has done so far it to do what it wants.  And Yugoslavia is
still doing what it wants, despite what NATO is doing.  While I believe NATO
can coerce Yugoslavia, it has not yet applied overwhelming force.  Agree?

<You, yourself, seemed to realize that coercion can be occurring
even when the coercer need take no action (force) to keep
the coercee behaving as the coercer wants.>

If the coercee is acting against his will because he fears what the coercer
will do, I would agree with you again, even if the coercer is taking no
forceful action.

<The coercer is always coercing because he is always able to intervene with
overwhelming force if the observable actions of the other person are not
what the coercer wants.>

I would be willing to say that the person with the ability and intent to
apply overwhelming force perceives being able to coerce.  But, until the
intended coercee actually perceives that force and because of that perception
behaves in the way the coercer wants against their will, there is no coercion
in the relationship.

I feel bogged down again but understand your view and why better than ever.
I just prefer my view.  So when you say coercion is taking place, it will
just have to be different that when I say it is taking place some times.
There certainly will be times that we as coercer, coercee and observer both
agree that coercive behavior seems to be taking place and we wish a
non-coercive behavior would get both interactive parties what they want.

Kenny