🚀 go-pugleaf

Phil Ronzone (phil@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <hsdgDBtM1y.D2r@netcom.com> hsdg@netcom.com (Bob Lange) writes:
:     >>Did you have a point to make? If so, please make it.
:     >>
:     >Against stupidity, even the gods are helpless (Goethe, I
:     >think). It seems I am wasting my time trying to make a point
:     >that you can't understand. (BTW, I mis-typed above; I meant
:     >"under public protection".)
:     <chomp>

: The correct quote is "Against stupidity even the gods struggle in vain.".
Thanks, that sounds better anyway.


: Take a look at typical tourist phots from American tourist returning from
: India. Gee, look at all the sacred cow photos.

: In any case, you're making my point.
: *WE*, as human beings, create by OUR subjective, repeat subjective, values,
: values between things.
: There is NOTHING outside of our human, subjective values, that makes
: tons of bison shit in the creeks any better or worse than tons of cattle
: shit in the creek.
: A herd of bison shitting in the creek is NO more or NO less "natural" than
: a herd of cattle shitting in the creek.
: So when some eco-luddite gets up and starts talking about how "against
: nature" it is to have all these man-tended cattle shitting in the creek,
: well, he's just full of creek.
: Because there is NO difference.

There is a big difference to those who value nature and natural 
settings.  I presume you would argue that there is no difference between
looking at a forest of billboards and a forest of pine trees.  Then we 
could extend that there is no difference other than a subjective one 
about anything.  This sounds nice in philosophy class perhaps, but leads
nowhere in the real world.  
: A beaver, and a beavers work is no more and no less "natural" than man
: and mans work.

: Indeed, in terms of "changing" on a large and drastic form the ecological
: process of nature, man and his works are TRIVIAL compared to life
: forms of the past -- such as the bacteris that reduce the Earth's
: ammonia/methane atmosphere to what we have today. Now THAT was ecological
: change on a LARGE scale.
I agree, but LARGE scale change would wipe us off the face of the Earth.  
It may not make much difference under your philosophy, but it would under
most of ours.  If you really don't care about any of this why are you 
still alive?  After all, your death would not mean anything either, right?
(I am not saying this as a flame, but as a counterpoint.)  Yet you probably
take actions every day to preserve your life and try to make it more 
enjoyable.  That is what we are trying to do regarding natural beauty.  
Preserve that which we find enjoyable.  If you really have no 
appreciation at all for nature, I feel sorry for you, but you have a 
right to your opinion...

: So the point you've been incapable of seeing is that it is ONLY our value
: systems that we are talking about -- the whole concept of "nature" and
: "ecology" exists ONLY as man-made objects.
I understand what you are saying philosophically.  But again, I feel it 
leads nowhere.  Would you pay the same for a house with a view of the 
ocean and mountains as a house with a view of a polluted and run-down 
factory district?  If so, please call your real estate agent.  I am sure 
she would be glad to help you swap with someone with a different philosophy.


: And even in your example of cows -- you go to a difference part of the
: planet and people will have very different attitudes and values
: about cows.
So if you really love cows and cowpies, you clearly know where you can go 
to live with those who share your values... :-).

: -- 
: "I didn't do it, nobody saw me, and you can't prove it!" - B. Simpson

: These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em! (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
-- 
  ============================================================
  =          The Health System Development Group             =
  =       Eagle Rock, CA  213/ 254-3517; 344-7078 fax        = 
  ============================================================