🚀 go-pugleaf

... so am I to assume you think that civilization is coming to an end??


"DonQuijote1954" <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:4e4a3f58.0411250629.53bd54e@posting.google.com...
> "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
> intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
> -Charles Darwin
>
> If it were to be an animal it would be doomed. But wait, maybe it is,
> what, a warmongering lion, a hungry dinosaur?
>
> Keep the SUVs rolling and the war going so the beast is fed. What an
> unromantic way for humanity to end, huh? :(
>
> Deep is space, in the Twilight Zone...
> http://pub36.bravenet.com/forum/3021914257/fetch/330301/
>
>
> Group Passes on Addressing Global Warming
>
> By BART CAMERON, Associated Press Writer
>
> REYKJAVIK, Iceland - Although faced with fresh evidence of global
> warming, the United States and other members the Arctic Council on
> Wednesday failed to make any recommendations to combat a problem most
> scientists say is causing sea ice to melt and temperatures to rise.
>
> The council met to consider a new scientific report suggesting the
> Arctic is warming up much faster than the rest of the planet.
>
> Some delegates on the council, a respected international panel that
> advises governments on Arctic issues, seemed to blame their group's
> inaction on America's rejection of the Kyoto Protocol (news - web
> sites), which requires industrial nations to reduce emissions of
> greenhouse gases. The Bush administration prefers voluntary measures
> to save the environment.
>
> "We no sooner leave the science proper than we enter into politics,"
> said Bryndis Kjartansdottir, speaking on behalf of the Icelandic
> ministry which chaired the one-day meeting.
>
> The study, compiled by 300 scientists and released earlier this month,
> said the Arctic is particularly vulnerable to warming from industrial
> greenhouse gases. One reason is that when snow and ice melt, the
> exposed, bare ground absorbs more heat.
>
> It projects that some animals could become extinct and people living
> in the region could be threatened by the thinning sea ice, melting
> glaciers and thawing permafrost.
>
> Sea ice in the Arctic has already decreased about 8 percent in 30
> years, resulting in the loss of 386,100 square miles of sea ice,
> according to the report.
>
> Delegates said the findings will help inform governments about global
> warming, but declined to make any specific recommendations in a
> declaration adopted Wednesday.
>
> Paula Dobriansky, the U.S. under secretary of global affairs, told the
> council's closing news conference that she was happy with that
> decision. She said America's participation in the council is just one
> part of the Bush administration's $5.2 billion spent for environmental
> projects such as renewable energies.
>
> But anger from other delegates over the U.S. position on global
> warming seemed evident during the news conference, particularly the
> Bush Administration's rejection of the Kyoto Protocol in 2001.
>
> The U.N.-sponsored accord, which was negotiated in 1997 in Kyoto,
> Japan, requires industrial nations to reduce emissions of greenhouse
> gases below 1990 levels.
>
> When Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja said, "It is the best
> possible declaration that could be adopted today," other delegates
> exploded in laughter.
>
> The council is comprised of eight nations --Canada, Denmark, Finland,
> Iceland, Norway, Russia, Sweden and the United States-- and six
> indigenous peoples of the Arctic, including the Saami Peoples of
> Norway and Finland and the Inuit Circumpolar Conference.
>
> http://committed.to/justiceforpeace 

November 26, 2004

Netizen Kane wrote:

> ... so am I to assume you think that civilization is coming to an end??

Name any previous civilization that didn't come to an end.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

"DonQuijote1954" <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4e4a3f58.0411250629.53bd54e@posting.google.com...
>
> By BART CAMERON, Associated Press Writer
>
> REYKJAVIK, Iceland - Although faced with fresh evidence of global
> warming, the United States and other members the Arctic Council on
> Wednesday failed to make any recommendations to combat a problem most
> scientists say is causing sea ice to melt and temperatures to rise.
>

Fresh evidence is forthcoming on an hourly basis from enviro idiots. If you
cry wolf that many times, what do you expect?

<Originally posted by Rickk 
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!">

Oh no, it's only ice falling!

"oohhhh...dead Jews and Americans!....oohhh...ohhhh...almost
there...ohhh...right there!...that's the spot...deeeeaddd
Jews...ovens....ohhhh-dead Jews! Be-headed Americans! OHHH! OHHH!
YES!!!!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!"

But don't blame all Americans and Jews for it, only a few of them--the
lions so to speak. Actually the Jewish kibbutz present the best hope
to Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles and other stupid things out there...

The Greening of the Kibbutz
Environmentalists hope to restore the kibbutz movement to its former
place on the leading edge of social innovation
by Jan Martin Bang

Imagine a string of villages, settled over the last twenty five years
by young people from all over the world, inspired by the ideals of
building a new society. A cooperative society, not using money,
trusting each other, each village having unique characteristics,
owning all things in common, bringing up their children in a new
educational system, practicing democracy at a grass roots, village
level. In short, building a new type of culture.

Doesn't that sound inspiring? Can such a thing exist? Is this just a
dream? A utopia, no place?

(snip)

The task of the Green Kibbutz Group became quite clear to me, to find
this concern in every kibbutz in the country, and nurture it, helping
it along to make the kibbutz movement once again a leading social
experiment. Where modern consumerism and capitalism armed with the
latest technology are creating a wasteland unfit for human habitation,
we have a task to create a new society, one which will use the
technology available to us, in a spirit of cooperation, to create
communities which will be sustainable and live lightly on the land.

http://www.ru.org/artkibb.html

"Netizen Kane" <nondigital@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<L8rpd.58679$7i4.11725@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> ... so am I to assume you think that civilization is coming to an end??

Well, if we could build a raft large enough to fit a good chunk of humanity... ;)

After Noah's Ark, everything is possible.

Thomas Lee Elifritz <crackpots@everywhere.net> wrote in message news:<41A6679F.3C1D7FD9@everywhere.net>...
> November 26, 2004
> 
> Netizen Kane wrote:
> 
> > ... so am I to assume you think that civilization is coming to an end??
> 
> Name any previous civilization that didn't come to an end.

The primitive man still survives high in human jungle... Well, is not
very civilized, but you get the point.
> 
> Thomas Lee Elifritz
> http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

Is that a picture of the future in Scandinavia?

"DonQuijote1954" <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:4e4a3f58.0411252034.2686530b@posting.google.com...
> Thomas Lee Elifritz <crackpots@everywhere.net> wrote in message 
> news:<41A6679F.3C1D7FD9@everywhere.net>...
>> November 26, 2004
>>
>> Netizen Kane wrote:
>>
>> > ... so am I to assume you think that civilization is coming to an end??
>>
>> Name any previous civilization that didn't come to an end.
>
> The primitive man still survives high in human jungle... Well, is not
> very civilized, but you get the point.
>>
>>
... you all are going to have to excuse me but I am 55 years old and for as 
long as I can remember I have been told by  numerous pundits that 
civilization especially western civilization is about to go bust and 
self-destruct.  First it was by all-out nuclear war - I also can remember 
being told we would run out of crude oil by 2000 - then it was the coming 
ice age - and now we all are going to roast in our own juices with global 
warming and the runaway greenhouse effect.  Sorry if I sound jaded & cynical 
but a ton of money has been and will be made predicting the end of the 
world.

Personally I think if we snuff ourselves it will come from the small 
microbial end of things.  Probably with good & benign intentions somebody 
will alter the genes of some lifeform and do irrepairable harm to most 
probably the food chain and then we all can kiss our modern civilization 
goodbye.  Just my 2 cents worth.

> > ...about the virus anology...ever notice a satell pix of modern
> > civilization on the face of the earth is just like a colony of virus
> > on the host? it begged the question are we the virus plague apon the
> > planet?>
> 
> Luckily we do have a cure for this plague:
> http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/sarastus/penaintr.htm
> 
> In Finland we have only 3% of foreign descent, compared to Sweden's
> 40%, and thus this guy's 50 years of premonitory sermons did have a
> covert effect, inspite of being officially comdemned.

Though I'm an immigrant myself, my position on the issue is, we need
to fix our own problems, and then we leave your land. Ironically we
may find that immigrants and racists have something in common,
particularly with a country like Finland which is a country...

Emigration from Finland

Finland has traditionally been a country of emigration. Over one
million finnish people has moved from Finland since 1900, half of that
before World War II. Without any emigration there would be 6-7 million
inhabitants in Finland. The most important wave of emigration started
from the 1860's and went on to the 1930's, when emigrants headed
mainly for North America. The next wave of dimension was the
emigration to Sweden which started in the 1950's and diminished in the
1970's.

Finding relatives in America has become some kind of a hobby for many.
For people living in America, Europe is the major continent where
their ancestors left. Ancestors from Finland can be found, even if the
number of immigrants from Finland was only about 0.5 % of all
immigrants to America. Usually people from the large emigration areas
in Finland tried to settle together in the same areas in the United
States. Most of the emigrants were men.

***

You see, Finland used to be a very backward country, but now is #1. We
have quite a bit to learn from Scandinavia...

http://committed.to/justiceforpeace

DonQuijote1954 <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4e4a3f58.0411250629.53bd54e@posting.google.com...
> "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
> intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
> -Charles Darwin

(cut)

Let's see ... humans can adapt to live underwater, on land, in arid regions,
in space, etc.  Unless humans run out of energy, I suspect that they will
continue to thrive.  If humans *do* run out of energy, look for the cock
roaches and ants to fill in the void.

<Originally posted by Bader 
Howdy DonQ:

I have to admit Cowboy got it right. I could have said similar a long
time ago.
People subject to the Law of the Jungle are trying to survive not
trying to protect the Law.
The lion is not govt bureaucracy, thats just as subject to the Law as
Cowboy.
And if you went to the manufacturer they would tell you the same story
as it applies to them.
The universe is full of energy and its free. Thats why we cant have
it, because the Lion wants to sell it. IF the US spent its defence
budget on bike lanes it wouldnt change a thing.>

Howdy Bader
It makes sense that the jungle condemns everybody, except that a GOOD
CHUNK OF THAT DEBT IS THE $30,000+ SUV. If there were bike lanes
people could get away with bicicles, which is precisely why the
government does't build them. He wants to be fed in a BIG WAY.

But if the bureaucracy is not the lion, then it's one of his
associates in sharing the scraps. That's why they resist ANY change,
except a raise in salary and benefits...

<Originally posted by HAZ 
here in N. Florida, we've only had one day in the forties and it's
almost December! Four or five hurricane recently....hello! ice
melting! should be a wake up call to someone! Our recently elected ?
President , thinks it's all junk science!

His home state is getting hammered with unusualy heavy amounts of
rain!>

I know, Haz, but they are tied up in the men's thing, which is to make
war. Funny that they didn't raise the possibility of the hurricane
being tied to climate change, just plenty of photo ops for reelection.
I call him Hurricane Bush...

We narrowly escaped several times in South Florida.

This website on Bush's war on the environment is very good...

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.ph...onmental_record

<Originally posted by HAZ 
will check out later,>

Hey, look how interesting at the related link...

Concerning Global Warming alone we read that: 

"International scientists from eight countries have warned that, based
even on the most conservative estimates, rising temperatures will
trigger a global mass extinction of unprecedented proportions. They
said global warming will set in train a far bigger threat to
terrestrial species than previously realised, at least on a par with
the already well-documented destruction of natural habitats around the
world. It is the first time such a powerful assessment has been made
and its conclusions will shock even those environmentalists accustomed
to "worst-case" scenarios."

"the corporate media's long-term, stubborn refusal to address the real
issues behind global warming - the corporations fighting with
unrelenting ferocity to destroy not just the Kyoto protocol but the
environment movement itself - represents the ultimate betrayal of us,
our future, and our planet."

The Sixth Great Extinction can be curbed - if we act now. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We are predicting the extinction of about two-thirds of all bird,
mammal, butterfly and plant species by the end of the next century,
based on current trends." --Peter H. Raven (1999), former President of
AAAS, the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.ph...reat_Extinction

"charliew2" <charliew2@ev1.net> wrote in message news:<10qi99926p1ikc9@corp.supernews.com>...
> DonQuijote1954 <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4e4a3f58.0411250629.53bd54e@posting.google.com...
> > "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
> > intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
> > -Charles Darwin
> 
> (cut)
> 
> Let's see ... humans can adapt to live underwater, on land, in arid regions,
> in space, etc.  Unless humans run out of energy, I suspect that they will
> continue to thrive.  If humans *do* run out of energy, look for the cock
> roaches and ants to fill in the void.

I can see a bright future...for roaches and ants. ;)

Humans though can live on land for quite a while (maybe 100 years) but
more difficult to live under water or up in space (maybe some months
at most).

The scenarios of destruction can be multiple, but it can most likely
descend into chaos and war due to scarcity of resources and/or
environmental catastrophes and/or injustice. We can see what's to come
by learning from the past...

A Recipe for Disaster?

Easter Island is the perfect precedent of what will happen to the
world--if we don't stop it on time. The most valuable resources are
being diverted into EXTRAVAGANT PROJECTS and WARS, while the REAL
ISSUES--environmental damage, injustice, etc--are ignored. The WATER
WELL IS DRYING UP before our very eyes. A recipe for disaster, I'd
say...

'The little spot of land in the middle of endless sea is more-or-less
in the same situation as our lonely little rock in dark cold universe,
and in the ecologically induced class struggle between "Long Ears" and
"Short Ears" we might see reflection of the escalating conflict
between rich and privileged states of the First World and numerically
increasing yet constantly impoverished multitudes of the Third World.'

RAPA NUI (1994) 
reviewed by 
Dragan Antulov 

The plot of this film is based on the legends and historical
speculations about Easter Island in Southeast Pacific, the most remote
part of the world that was ever settled by human beings. Dutch
explorers, upon discovering those islands in 1722, found impressive
statues but the the local population, made of stone-age cannibalistic
savages, seemed incapable of erecting them. The movie tries to give
the explanation for this by setting the story few decades before the
arrival of Europeans. The island is so far away from the other lands
and that the descendants of Polynesian settlers forgot their roots and
believe that they are the only people in the world. Lack of external
conflicts doesn't mean that there aren't tensions within the community
- the society is divided into two classes based on racial features -
aristocratic "Long Ears" and plebeian "Short Ears". The class and
racial tensions has begun to escalate because of the population
explosion; the island is simply too small to provide the needs for the
people. Old and senile king Ariki-mau (played by Eru Potaka-Dewes) is
less concerned with those problems, because he thinks only of erecting
bigger and bigger statues in order to placate gods. His grandson Naro
(played by Jason Scott Lee) has other things on his mind, since he
fell in love in "Short Ear" girl Ramana (played by Sandirine Holt).
Love that crosses class divide happens in worst of all times, since
"Short Ears" like Make (played by Esai Morales) are less and less
enthusiastic about "Long Ears" rule, which slowly but inevitably paves
the way for brutal civil unrest.

RAPA NUI definitely belongs to the same category as multitude of other
films with strong environmental message, which used to be made during
the zenith of Hollywood's "political correctness" in early to mid
1990s. What distinguishes this film from those films is the manor in
which the message is delivered to the audience. Namely, filmmakers
wisely chose to set the plot in a time before arrival of Europeans,
thus sparing the viewers from "politically correct" cliches of evil
European civilisation destroying the nature. RAPA NUI shows that less
advanced native cultures, which are supposed to be more "in tune" with
the nature, can be equally or even more deadly to the environment than
their modern-day equivalents. What is even more remarkable about this
film is the fact that the whole story can be seen as powerful allegory
about the current state of human civilisation as a whole. The little
spot of land in the middle of endless sea is more-or-less in the same
situation as our lonely little rock in dark cold universe, and in the
ecologically induced class struggle between "Long Ears" and "Short
Ears" we might see reflection of the escalating conflict between rich
and privileged states of the First World and numerically increasing
yet constantly impoverished multitudes of the Third World. Unlike
other films that try to shove the Message down our throats by, RAPA
NUI successfully shows how greed, ignorance and unbalanced approach
towards environment can bring down entire civilisation.

Unfortunately, most of the viewers have to digest this message in the
context of plot, characters and situations that sometimes look too
cliched or simplistic, or simply out of place. One of the examples is
the triathlon scene, which looks like it was added into the film only
to provide some testosterone- filled action in otherwise depressive
movie. The writer and director Kevin Reynolds nevertheless manages to
keep things under control, helped by ethnically diverse and very
capable cast. Despite many flaws, RAPA NUI is a film that can leave a
strong impression on any viewers, and after WTC bombings, when the
future of our world seems so uncertain, this impression is definitely
going to be even stronger.

more...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote55

"Across its range, this magnificent animal is being poisoned,
electrocuted, blown up by land mines, trapped, snared, shot and
captured"

Funds to save the tiger are short; funds for war are plentyful.
Welcome to the land of the human predators... :(

Conservationists call for more funds, commitment to protect tigers

Fri Nov 26, 7:56 PM ET   Science - AFP 
 
HANOI (AFP) - A large injection of funds and commitment from the
international community is needed to prevent the world's critically
endangered tiger population from dwindling any further,
conservationists warned.

Out of the eight sub-species of tiger that roamed the earth's jungles
and forests 60 years ago, the Bali tiger, the Caspian tiger and the
Javan tiger are now extinct, while less than 20 South China tigers
remain.

"Across its range, this magnificent animal is being poisoned,
electrocuted, blown up by land mines, trapped, snared, shot and
captured," according to global conservation organization, the WWF.

[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1540&ncid=1540&e=4&u=/afp/20041127/sc_afp/wildlife_animals_tigers_041127005644[/url]

Well, NOT ALL HUMANS ARE PREDATORS. Actually it may only be a minority
who are, so we must isolate them, punish them--and remove them from
power where applicable.

This man wants to save the snail against man-made pollution. Perhaps
this is the kind of people we need in power...;)

At One With the Snails

Sat Oct 30, 7:55 AM ET   Top Stories - Los Angeles Times 
 
By P.J. Huffstutter Times Staff Writer 

PROTEM, Mo.-- More than 170 feet below the surface, Tom Aley feels his
way through a pitch-black cave, searching for a blind snail no bigger
than a grain of sand.

The air is dank and cold. Aley squeezes his 6-foot-3, 195-pound frame
through a gap in the stone just wider than his thighs. Far ahead, he
can hear the faint sound of water trickling through the cave, which
stretches out for two miles. It's the underground creek that winds
through Tumbling Creek Cave, buried deep in the lush rolling hills of
southwest Missouri.

Along the creek, inside this cave he owns, Aley discovered what has
become his obsession: the snail called Antrobia culveri.

There is nothing else like it-- it is the only species in its genus
and so far, it has been seen only in this cave.

About 15,000 Antrobia culveri once flourished here. Today, fewer than
150 are left: Runoff from overgrazed pastures has washed sediment and
pollution into the creek's once icy clear waters, and is thought to
have killed off nearly all the snails.

Aley's attempts to keep this seemingly insignificant creature alive
destroyed his first marriage, cost him $1.4 million and consumed 38
years of his life. The dwindling snail population exasperates him --he
sees it as a personal failure-- but Aley refuses to stop.

[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=6&u=/latimests/20041030/ts_latimes/atonewiththesnails[/url]

DonQuijote1954 wrote:
> "charliew2" <charliew2@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:<10qi99926p1ikc9@corp.supernews.com>...
>> DonQuijote1954 <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4e4a3f58.0411250629.53bd54e@posting.google.com...
>>> "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
>>> intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
>>> -Charles Darwin
>>
>> (cut)
>>
>> Let's see ... humans can adapt to live underwater, on land, in arid
>> regions, in space, etc.  Unless humans run out of energy, I suspect
>> that they will continue to thrive.  If humans *do* run out of
>> energy, look for the cock roaches and ants to fill in the void.
>
> I can see a bright future...for roaches and ants. ;)
>
> Humans though can live on land for quite a while (maybe 100 years) but
> more difficult to live under water or up in space (maybe some months
> at most).
>
> The scenarios of destruction can be multiple, but it can most likely
> descend into chaos and war due to scarcity of resources and/or
> environmental catastrophes and/or injustice. We can see what's to come
> by learning from the past...

Rapa Nui ( Easter Island ) is indeed a good example of what the current
civilisation can expect  'if this goes on'.

> > I thought you were anti-immigrant, but I didn't get the point about
> > inferior Finns. Well, for those who are anti-immigrant, they must
> > realize we got something in common in fixing the problems of the
> > Thirld World...
> 
> 20% unemployed (defacto) and they say we "urgently" need more people.
> According to CEO of Nokia those (unemployed) are of inferior quality
> (inspite of high education) and we need to give tax-breaks those
> educated foreigners that are willing to move to Finland.

It sounds to me like Saudi Arabia...

What is good for GM...is bad for the American people, in light for so
many SUVs out there polluting and threatening others on the road.
Perhaps the same for Nokia?

Anyway if you got such unemployment, isn't it time cut down the
workweek?

> 
> > Scandinavia went from being a poor emigrant place to a rich immigran
> > place. Sweden studied America in order to learn what to do--and what
> > not to do--in the 1920's and by the 30's it was already a model.
> 
> Please. Sweden did not start mass-immigration until 1960.  Wages were
> 3 times higher than in Finland (I was there -- as a summer-timer
> immigrant laborer). Downhill ever since, now Sweden is poorer than
> Finland with appaling third-world problems.

Well, the problem in Finland seems to have more to do with
globalization than with immigration. Sweden is another story, which
may prove the failure of socialism with people who don't share the
values (immigrants). I'd chose neither route: neither socialism nor
globalization, but ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY (mostly through competition from
coops), providing more employment with fewer hours and cutting down
welfare. Of course, those policies must be implemented first and
foremost in the countries that feed the immigrants to Scandinavia.

Scandinavia has its own system based on low corruption and high taxes
that may work best for them. At least it can't be called a jungle, and
it's #1 in most world rankings. For one the hordes of homeless, the
crime, the dilapidation you find in America are not found there...

"Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.usa> wrote in message news:<wlpqd.681$kI6.134681@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Rapa Nui ( Easter Island ) is indeed a good example of what the current
> civilisation can expect  'if this goes on'.

Yep. I recommend the movie.

It's very appropriate: The Moai (gods) preside over the downfall of a
people preoccupied with their worship. The pursuit of stupidity in the
human race can not be understimated. In the movie though is presented
like some preacherman was the manipulator over the stupid king of the
"Long Ears," and he used the "Short Ears"--the nearly enslaved
people--to carry forth the no less stupid enterprise of sculpting and
erecting the statues in order to gain personal glory. Very plausible.
It happens in the present.

"Thomas Lee Elifritz" <crackpots@everywhere.net> wrote in message 
news:41A70D70.A9C5AF42@everywhere.net...
> November 26, 2004
>
> Netizen Kane wrote:
>
>> ... you all are going to have to excuse me but I am 55 years old and for 
>> as
>> long as I can remember I have been told by  numerous pundits that
>
> There's your problem right there, you don't think for yourself.
>
>> Personally I think
>
> Why do I doubt that?
>
>> probably the food chain and then we all can kiss our modern civilization
>> goodbye.  Just my 2 cents worth.
>
> So, you've changed your mind and decided to think for yourself.
>
> Good for you. So many problems, so little time.
>
> Thomas Lee Elifritz
> http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net
>
>
.... I luv reading responses from the personality impaired.

November 29, 2004

Netizen Kane wrote:

> .... I luv reading responses from the personality impaired.

In lieu of actually solving environmental problems.

<plonk> problem solved.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net