🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <3f7166e1@news.comindico.com.au>, fake@address.com says...
> 
> "Peter" <turned.up@the.side> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19db828a22334f8798a0b9@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > > > In article <3f70c235$1@news.comindico.com.au>, fake@address.com says...
> > > This isssue has been discussed AND is resolved .. Peter Mackey (Mackay)
> > > served in the University of Queensland Regiment .. he was never in the ARMY
> > > as we regulars (ex and current) understand it, simply a weekend schoolie
> > > warrior . he may well have attained the rank of sergeant although those
> > > ranks are pretty worthless as their not indicative of hard work and
> > > achiement .. merely showing up regularly.
> >
> > LOL! If only that were true - I would have been drawing a sergeant's pay
> > after the first year.
> 
> I'm sure a sergeant in the regulars would back me up on that.

People don't get promoted above Lance-Corporal in the Australian Army for 
"merely showing up regularly". I certainly had to pass my promotion 
subjects and then be recommended for promotion. In my day there were two 
subjects. Sub 1 was a generic course on things like giving instructional 
lessons, military law, administration and whatever else was deemed 
necessary for the rank. Sub 2 was corps-specific. I was required to know 
things like small-unit infantry tactics, characteristics of weapons, both 
friendly and enemy, unit organisations and so on. Artillery Sub 2 would 
cover different material, Armour, Engineers and so on would all have their 
own versions of the subject, but the end result was the same: you'd know 
and have practiced all the duties of the promotion rank.
 
> > > This fact is not in question .. what appears to be in question here is
> > > whether or not the reserves is considered "being in the army" ..  regulars
> > > say it isn't, reservists say it is ...    it's opinion and as such there is
> > > no right or wrong answer.
> >
> > What you're struggling to say is that part-time soldiers are not full-time
> > soldiers. The reality is that in both World Wars the Australian soldiers
> > doing the fighting were reserves and the regular army stayed home.
> 
> I'm not struggling to say anything .. the fact is that regulars feel that
> weekend warriors are a joke and for the most part they're right.

Well, that's different to what you were struggling to say above. The simple 
fact is that members of the Army Reserve are soldiers and an integral part 
of the Army.

>  Sure they
> fought in the wars but you went nowhere and did nothing did you .

For which I am eternally grateful. There weren't any wars to go to during 
my time. I wish it were so now.

At the moment it is different, because we are involved in various conflicts 
and commitments and Reserve soldiers are serving alongside Regulars.
> 
> The reality is that most of the soldiers that went off to WW1, WW2, Vietnam
> etc were regulars ...

Crap. The soldiers who fought in the two World Wars were NOT Regular Army. 
The permanent forces stayed home. After the war we changed strategy. We 
didn't raise expeditionary forces "for the duration", we sent Regular units 
off to Korea, Borneo, Malaysia and Vietnam.

If you don't believe me, go look up a few sources.

"Part-time voluntary defence units have played an important part in 
Australian defence since early colonial days. The strategic rationale for 
raising and maintaining part-time forces, the relative priority they have 
received in defence planning, the budgetary allocations they have 
attracted, their numerical strengths and standards of training and 
equipment, however, have all changed markedly, especially during the 
twentieth century.

"Most notably, part-time forces comprised essentially the Army up until the 
end of the Second World War. In the period since, the part-time forces in 
all three Services have been largely relegated to the status of reserves 
with a role of providing support to more operationally ready and better 
resourced permanent forces."

http://www.defence.gov.au/reserves/ "Reserves History" tab.

> every day Aussies who chose to take up arms to fight
> the good fight and they did so with honour for the most part ..

Sure. But the Anzac legend was created by citizen soldiers who joined units 
raised locally, went overseas, and came back when the conflict was done. 
Very few of the regular army went overseas - for the most part we simply 
didn't have enough of them to constitute any sort of fighting force.

> running
> around the bush of the University of Queensland doesn't come close to
> stalking the VC through the forests of Vietnam no matter how much dreaming
> you do.

Not much bush at U of Q. But I'm not trying to pretend that QUR was any 
sort of combat unit. Even if there *had* been a war going on, it would have 
had to be pretty desperate for Uni Regiments to be thrown into the fray.
 
> > http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/award.asp?vc=802 gives details of one such
> > citizen soldier. There were many more like him, and I trust still are in
> > today's Army, both Regular and Reserve.
> 
> You're dreaming Peter.

Simple historical fact. And I have no doubt that there are other soldiers, 
both Regular and Reserve, who could win a VC if the circumstances 
permitted.

> The time between Vietnam and the 1st Gulf war were
> different years from the past and the present .. an unprecedent time of
> peace reigned through there and the weekend warriors did nothing but a
> little community service if their OC's deemed it fitting.

Uh, yeah. There were no wars to go to. 
 
> > But perhaps, to be consistent, you might like to agree that according to
> > your own argument, Peter Lucas wasn't a soldier during his time with QUR
> > and other Reserve units. And that he, like me, is now a civilian.
> 
> I agree that reservists are not soldiers.

That's just plain wrong. Army Reserve soldiers are soldiers.

"In today's Army, you can choose either to work full-time or part-time. It 
all depends on what you would like to do. If you prefer full-time work 
there is the Regular Army, and if you're after part-time work there's the 
Army Reserve. Whether you choose full-time or part-time work, you'll become 
part of one of the largest and most professional organisations in 
Australia."
http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/careers_explorer/ArmySEReservebody.html

>   I cannot comment at Peter Lucas'
> military history as I have no knowledge of it.

He claims to have spent a few years in QUR. You're saying he wasn't a 
soldier during that time. That's your opinion.
 
> > I've sertainly never claimed to have been a Regular soldier.
> 
> As I pointed out.

What's that supposed to mean? You're agreeing with me?

> > I've spent
> > time with Reg units on exercise and done Regular Army courses to gain
> > qualifications I needed, but that's par for the course, especially
> nowadays
> > where units can be a mix of Regular and Reserve. QUR. for example, is a
> > subunit of the Royal Military College, and QUR officers have always worn
> > CSC puggarees.
> 
> However, your weekend warrioring ended many years ago so what happens now is
> irrelevant. 

That's the whole point. I got out twenty years ago. I'm not a soldier.

> It should be noted that the reserves are a very different
> organisation now than they were 10 years ago with the government changing
> the rules to suit themselves.

As opposed to someone else changing the rules?
 
> > The Chief of the Army and the Chief of the Defence Force have opinions
> that
> > differ from yours.
> 
> Do they?

yup. According to what they say in public.

>  I was given the opportunity to gain insight into the opinions of a
> few of them and I'd have to disagree with you on that.

Please. Give details.
 
> > Shall I quote from their various speeches, all available
> > through Defence websites?
> 
> Nope.   But when you've personally spoken with them come let me know.

Are you trying to say that our senior military leaders say one thing in 
widely reported speeches, and another in private audiences with you, and 
that your version supersedes the official version?