🚀 go-pugleaf

Trevor Wilson wrote:
> "Sam Stone" <sirian@mental.org> wrote in message 
> news:A6rBd.7818905$6p.1227527@news.easynews.com...
> 
>>Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>"Sam Stone" <sirian@mental.org> wrote in message 
>>>news:NBnBd.5710935$yk.863727@news.easynews.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Sam Stone" <sirian@mental.org> wrote in message 
>>>>>news:0QiBd.7797886$6p.1225221@news.easynews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>**You're kidding, right? Please provide the PRECISE scientific 
>>>>>>>processes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yawn...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>An ancient, incomplete, and oft translated text is not likely to 
>>>>>>conform to the tenets of *modern* science. You might just as well 
>>>>>>castigate Shakesepare for his antiquated vernacular.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>**Nope. Language is language and science is science. There is no science 
>>>>>in the Bible.
>>>>
>>>>Again you are wrong.
>>>>
>>>>There is food preparation science, breeding science, geographic science, 
>>>>etc.
>>
>>
>>(see the red herring maneuver here)
>>
>>
>>>**It seems you've neglected to add your alleged "science" related to a 
>>>thermo-nuclear blast.Why is that?
>>
>>It seems you've fixated on one thing in an effort to disprove the whole by 
>>niggling on the solitary, why is that?
> 
> 
> **You said it. 

No...I referenced it.

> I want you to explain it. Where is the science? After you 
> provide your evidence, we can move on to other parts of the discussion. You 
> do not get to throw ad hoc remarks about, without being challenged.

I can present whatever material I choose to, deal with it.

http://www.timestar.org/monkey.htm

Sitchin relates an atomic blast in the Sinai desert in a war over a 
space port in the year 2023BC, causing the Sumerian gods to withdraw. 
Satellite photos clearly show a blast area that corresponds with 
accounts of a devastating war between warring Sumerian factions that had 
started much earlier with Egypt that resulted in reuniting Egypt at 
Memphis very close to the 4000BC date. Some of the underground wells 
around the Black Sea are still radioactive and a green glass found only 
near atomic blast sites is scattered throughout Africa. Sitchin reports 
a conflict between Ea's sons, Thoth and Marduk, which resulted in Thoth 
being exiled to Mesoamerica circa 3113BC The conflict between Thoth and 
Marduk was long-standing and had involved a splitting of Egypt which was 
later reunited at Memphis.

A steadily declining life span was reported for the Biblical patriarchs. 
In the beginning, the years of man were 120. Life spans shot up when the 
Nefilim mated with the daughters of men then declined to a low of 35 
years. Enoch was translated in a beam of light to heaven at the age of 
365 years; Methuselah lived over 900 years; Noah was 600 when he entered 
the Ark with his three sons; and Abraham, born in 2123BC, lived 175 
years. During the era of Jmmanuel/Jesus, the average life span in Rome 
was 35 years. These declining numbers correspond with a radical 
climactic and cultural decline circa 4000BC independently identified by 
DeMeo, who had no knowledge of Sitchin's Sumerian translations. With 
Abraham's life span of 175 years in 2123, the average life span had 
declined to 35 years 2000 years later and has now increased by 35 years 
in another 2000 years, so today's average life span in the U.S. is 70 years.

>>Come on man, admit it, you HATE the Bible, you despise people of faith.
> 
> 
> **An opinion you get to have. 

And an accurate one judging by your weak denial...

> What I detest are purveyors of ignorance and 
> untruth. I don't care about the Bible, either way. It is a book, comprised 
> of some history, some allegory, some poetry, some fiction and some 
> philosophy. It was written by sicentifically illiterate people, then 
> politically censored and poorly translated. Nothing more.

It was written by ancient people with their extant scientific abilities.

>>You seek to deride, silence, and chase off all who do not fit your narrow 
>>scientific dogma.
> 
> 
> **Narrow? I'm not the one claiming all sorts of unproven, supernatural 
> claptrap as evidence of anything.

"Supernatural"?

>>You lot always do that.
> 
> 
> **You have no idea what I always do.

You're providing a handy lesson in such here.

>>>>>Shakespear's use of language was appropriate for his time.
>>>>
>>>>As were the scriptures and their verbiage and acumen to theirs.
>>>
>>>
>>>**Indeed. It WAS clear, to those who spoke the various languages that the 
>>>Bible was written in. That would be Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Some has 
>>>been successfully translated into modern languages and some has not. Some 
>>>passages have been removed and/or politically censored over the years. 
>>>All relates to various historical activities of the time, peotry and 
>>>philosophy. None relate to any form of science.
>>
>>You lie again.
> 
> 
> **Really? Prove me wrong.

This repetition is SO boring...

http://www.wagoneers.com/pages/Living_By_Faith/Science-and-Bible.html

God spoke and matter and light came into existence. (Genesis 1:1, 1:3; 
John 1:1, 1:3)

If you will, God is energy, and from energy He created matter. Einstein 
determined that matter and energy are interchangeable, and of course 
they are subject to the laws of thermodynamics.

God is the source of energy within our closed system referred to as the 
Universe. God, however, is infinite and without bound in time and space. 
The creation is bound by both time and space, both of which are created, 
and has a finite amount of energy. (Ecclesiastes 1)


God exists in the creation, but also outside the creation and is not 
bound by time or space as we understand it. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)


God not only created the universe (Colossians 1:16), but also holds it 
together, even at the atomic level! (Colossians 1:17)


God is not only concerned with the physical infrastructure of the 
universe, but more so with the primary focus of His creation: mankind. 
(John 3:16)


The Bible reveals just enough of how God created the universe to pique 
our interests to get us to seek Him. (Ecclesiastes 3:11).


The creation seeks a balance, when balanced it's hard to move. Think 
about that in relation to the laws of Thermodynamics. The study of the 
flow of heat within a system. Once the heat is distributed it can't be 
easily redistributed. The same way a battery will discharge. The laws of 
physics apply throughout the creation. These laws mitigate against the 
theory of evolution, especially a theory that requires vast quantities 
of time and high degrees of probability to come into effect. It just 
doesn't make sense in relation to the known and well accepted laws of 
physics and science. Compound to that the difficulty of the theory in 
relating it to the Word of God, the Bible . It doesn't work well against 
either measure.


Science does not contradict the concepts of a Creator God, especially 
when dealing with the accepted laws of Physics. Science actually helps 
us to understand more about the awesome nature of God and His phenomenal 
creation. We have insight into the mind of God when we examine His 
handiwork.


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencebible.html

The Bible is often described as a book that includes many ideas that are 
scientifically inaccurate. The truth is that what many Christians (and 
non-Christians) have misinterpreted the Bible in such a way as to make 
it seem to be at odds with the reality of our world. For example, the 
Roman Catholic Church promoted geocentrism (the idea that the earth is 
the center of the universe) for many years. This concept is not found in 
the Bible, but stems from the idea that since humans are the center of 
God's attention, that the place where they live must be the center of 
God's universe. This is neither a logical nor biblical inference. In 
fact, the Bible states that the heavens "fix their rule over the 
earth,"1 demonstrating that the heavens control the earth and not the 
other way around. The early proponents (Nicholas Copernicus, Johannes 
Kepler, Galileo Galilei) of heliocentrism (the earth revolving around 
the Sun) were all Christians (see related page - People of Faith - 
Famous Scientists). In fact, Isaac Newton, in his famous scientific 
work, Principia, stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, 
and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an 
intelligent and powerful Being."

Earth Sciences
Earth began as a waterworld. Formation of continents by tectonic 
activity described Genesis 1:2-9, Psalms 104:6-9, Proverbs 3:19, 
Proverbs 8:27-29, Job 38:4-8, 2 Peter 3:517
Water cycle described Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10, Job 36:27-2818
Valleys exist on the bottom of the sea 2 Samuel 22:1619
Vents exist on the bottom of the sea Job 38:1620
Ocean currents in the sea Psalms 8:821
Air has weight Job 28:2522
Winds blow in circular paths Ecclesiastes 1:623


>>There was food science.
> 
> 
> **Let's discuss your alleged "science" pertaining to thermo-nuclear blasts. 
> While you are at it, prlease provide some evidence where the Bible discusses 
> bacteria.

Biology
The chemical nature of human life Genesis 2:7, 3:1924
Life of creatures are in the blood Leviticus 17:1125
The nature of infectious diseases Leviticus 13:4626
Importance of sanitation to health
  Numbers 19, Deuteronomy 23:12-13, Leviticus 7-927

>>Reproductive science.
> 
> 
> **Really? And just where does the Bible discuss genetics?

http://www.apologeticspress.org/defdocs/rr1991/r&r9104a.htm


THE LAWS OF GENETICS AND THE BIBLE
There are at least two important points that relate genetics directly to 
the Bible, and which will be discussed here. First, the genetic code�s 
chemical instructions are copied faithfully time after time. In other 
words, to use Dr. Ford�s earlier examples, sparrows produce only 
sparrows, buttercups produce only buttercups, and human beings produce 
only human beings. Sparrows never produce robins; buttercups never 
produce tulips; human beings never produce anything but other human 
beings. Second, the genetic code�with its complexity, orderliness, and 
function�provides the most powerful kind of evidence for intelligent 
design, which requires a Designer. Let us examine briefly these two 
important points.

The biblical record is quite clear when it comes to the first of these 
two points�that the genetic code was designed to copy itself faithfully. 
In Genesis 1:11-12 we read: �And God said, let the earth put forth 
grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after 
its kind, wherein is the seed thereof upon the earth, and it was so. And 
the earth brought forth grass, the herb yielding seed and the fruit tree 
yielding fruit after its kind whose seed was in itself.� This same 
wording�after its kind�is repeated in such passages as Genesis 1:20,21 
and Genesis 1:24,25. A comparison of similar passages (e.g., Leviticus 
11:13-23) provides additional dramatic emphasis of the importance of 
this phrase. Byron Nelson, author of the classic work, After Its Kind, 
offered the following commentary on these statements of Scripture:


In the first chapter of Genesis, however, because it is a matter of the 
greatest religious importance, the Bible speaks clearly and finally on a 
matter of biology. After its kind is the statement of a biological 
principle that no human observation has ever known to fail. The most 
ancient human records engraved on stone or painted on the walls of caves 
bear witness to the fact that horses have ever been horses, bears have 
ever been bears, geese have ever been geese, reindeer have ever been 
reindeer. The most desperate and subtle efforts of man in modern times 
have been unable to alter this divine decree. The Bible teaches that 
from the beginning there have been a large number of types of living 
things, man included, which were so created as to remain true to their 
particular type throughout all generations.... The latest results of 
modern biological research, Mendel�s Laws, agree exactly with what was 
written by Moses three thousand years ago�and they also elucidate it... 
(1967, pp. 3,103, emp. in orig.).

>>Geographic science, etc.
> 
> 
> **Geographic "science"? You're kidding, right? Wanna speculate on how the 
> Bible discusses plate techtonics? Please cite the appropriate passages.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0911_030911_SiloamTunnel.html

Jerusalem Tunnel Linked to Bible

Stefan Lovgren
for National Geographic News
September 11, 2003


Researchers using sophisticated radio-dating techniques have concluded 
that a tunnel running under ancient Jerusalem was indeed constructed 
around 700 B.C., during the reign of King Hezekiah, just as it is 
described in the Bible.
The tunnel, which is about 500 meters (550 yards) long, brings water 
from the Gihon Springs, located some 300 meters (330 yards) outside the 
walls of old Jerusalem, to the Siloan Pool inside the ancient city. It 
was built to protect the city's water supply during an Assyrian siege.


"Geography of The Bible"
AAG Specialty Group

2003/2004 Report
by
William A. Dando, Chairperson
Specialty Group
submitted on
March 22, 2004


Of special interest was the state-of the-art remote sensing/GIS 
presentation/workshop/session on the Holy Land as seen from platforms, 
miles and hundreds of miles above the earth's surface. The Geography of 
the Bible Specialty Group developed a working relationship with 
Geography of Religious Beliefs specialty group and with the Remote 
Sensing Specialty Group to bring Dr. Richard Cleave, author of Satellite 
Atlas of the Holy Land, to the 1998 Annual Meeting in Boston, 
Massachusetts. The material presented by Dr. Cleave and colleagues from 
Israel was mind-boggling.

Our relationship continues with Dr. Cleave, and in 1999, he published a 
two-volume satellite atlas; its citation is:

Cleave, Richard (ed.). The Holy Land Satellite Atlas, Volume 1, "Terrain 
Recognition," and Vol. 2, "The Regions." Rohr Productions: Nicosia, 
Cyprus, 1999.

Concomitantly, Carta's Map of Israel: Holy Land 2000 is a superb new 
large wall map of Israel. It is in color and can be secured by 
contacting Eva Wajntraub at the Israeli Map Collectors' Society in 
Jerusalem.

http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=2&sub=50&cat_name=Ancient+Israel&subcat_name=Maps+%26+Geography
> 
> 
>>>>>Moreover, his meaning is clear today.
>>>>
>>>>So also is the Bible's.
>>>
>>>
>>>**Some is. Some is confusing. Some is utterly incomprehensible and 
>>>misleading. Some is downright contradictory. IOW: It is a mess.
>>
>>Yet you said "some is".
> 
> 
> **Of course. Some of the history is factual. Few scholars deny that.

A start...

>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile carry on nit-picking and Randi-izing any and everything that 
>>>>>>doesn't fit precielsy in to the extant models.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>**Science is science. You have yet to provide any actual scientific 
>>>>>evidence from the Bible. Wanna speculate on why that is the case?
>>>>
>>>>There is the science of food preparation and preservation, geographic 
>>>>science, breeding science etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>**It seems you've neglected to add your alleged "science" related to a 
>>>thermo-nuclear blast.Why is that?
>>
>>It seems you've focused on one offering to satisfy your narrow personal 
>>agenda, why is THAT?
> 
> 
> **You brought it up. YOU explain it. Or you could retract it. Your choice.

I provided a reference.

Here's one more:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/pex_6.htm

One of the strangest mysteries of ancient Egypt is that of the great 
glass sheets that were only discovered in 1932. In December of that 
year, Patrick Clayton, a surveyor for the Egyptian Geological Survey, 
was driving among the dunes of the Great Sand Sea near the Saad Plateau 
in the virtually uninhabited area just north of the southwestern corner 
of Egypt, when he heard his tyres crunch on something that wasn't sand. 
It turned out to be large pieces of marvelously clear, yellow-green glass.

In fact, this wasn't just any ordinary glass, but ultra-pure glass that 
was an astonishing 98 per cent silica. Clayton wasn't the first person 
to come across this field of glass, as various 'prehistoric' hunters and 
nomads had obviously also found the now-famous Libyan Desert Glass 
(LDG). The glass had been used in the past to make knives and 
sharp-edged tools as well as other objects. A carved scarab of LDG was 
even found in Tutankhamen's tomb, indicating that the glass was 
sometimes used for jewellery.

An article by Giles Wright in the British science magazine New Scientist 
(July 10, 1999), entitled "The Riddle of the Sands", says that LDG is 
the purest natural silica glass ever found. Over a thousand tonnes of it 
are strewn across hundreds of kilometres of bleak desert. Some of the 
chunks weigh 26 kilograms, but most LDG exists in smaller, angular 
pieces--looking like shards left when a giant green bottle was smashed 
by colossal forces.

According to the article, LDG, pure as it is, does contain tiny bubbles, 
white wisps and inky black swirls. The whitish inclusions consist of 
refractory minerals such as cristobalite. The ink-like swirls, though, 
are rich in iridium, which is diagnostic of an extraterrestrial impact 
such as a meteorite or comet, according to conventional wisdom. The 
general theory is that the glass was created by the searing, 
sand-melting impact of a cosmic projectile.

However, there are serious problems with this theory, says Wright, and 
many mysteries concerning this stretch of desert containing the pure 
glass. The main problem: Where did this immense amount of widely 
dispersed glass shards come from? There is no evidence of an impact 
crater of any kind; the surface of the Great Sand Sea shows no sign of a 
giant crater, and neither do microwave probes made deep into the sand by 
satellite radar.

Furthermore, LDG seems to be too pure to be derived from a messy cosmic 
collision. Wright mentions that known impact craters, such as the one at 
Wabar in Saudi Arabia, are littered with bits of iron and other 
meteorite debris. This is not the case with the Libyan Desert Glass 
site. What is more, LDG is concentrated in two areas, rather than one. 
One area is oval-shaped; the other is a circular ring, six kilometres 
wide and 21 kilometres in diameter. The ring's wide centre is devoid of 
the glass.

One theory is that there was a soft projectile impact: a meteorite, 
perhaps 30 metres in diameter, may have detonated about 10 kilometres or 
so above the Great Sand Sea, the searing blast of hot air melting the 
sand beneath. Such a craterless impact is thought to have occurred in 
the 1908 Tunguska event in Siberia--at least as far as mainstream 
science is concerned. That event, like the pure desert glass, remains a 
mystery.

Another theory has a meteorite glancing off the desert surface, leaving 
a glassy crust and a shallow crater that was soon filled in. But there 
are two known areas of LDG. Were there two cosmic projectiles in tandem?

Alternatively, is it possible that the vitrified desert is the result of 
atomic war in the ancient past?

http://www.halexandria.org/dward194.htm

On a more practical, modern day level, it is instructive to locate the 
cities that received the wrath of what has come to be called the War of 
the Kings.

<http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm> suggests the 
extent of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (and the other cities 
which were located in the same area).  Besides there beings lots of salt 
pillars (pardon the pun), each of the locations were indicative of a 
city turned to ash and sulfur balls -- the latter being the brimstone 
referred to in the King James version of the Bible.

   �Black stones and rocks are scattered all over the surrounding area 
and geologist claim that the ground layers are arranged in an upside 
down fashion.�  �This is the Biblical location of Sodom and Gomorra 
(Ammorah), the same location where the dead sea is right now.  However, 
a major event took place that changed the nature of the land and the 
nearby areas.�



>>>>>>Be very careful not to look for commonalities in creation stories of 
>>>>>>geographically diverse cltures, deny the existence of unknown aerial 
>>>>>>phenomena, and heartily deride all religion and any who would sugest 
>>>>>>that perhaps man is not the author of his own existence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think that sums it up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>**It sums nothing up.
>>>>
>>>>It sums up the finagling closed mindedness you and your ilk evince.
>>>
>>>
>>>**You mean those of us who seek the truth?
>>
>>You don't seek the truth, you seek to destroy the faith of others.
> 
> 
> **Nope. Your faith is yours. Your faith may have little to do with truth. 

Or it may be spot on!

> That is your issue.
> 
> 
>>There is no quest for knowledge in you, you only look to deny and destroy.
> 
> 
> **What? By attempting to discard supernatural claptrap? You've got to be 
> kidding!

By demonizing anything that doesn't fit your narrow secular paramaters 
as "cupernatural claptrap".

You've proven my point in that one hoary admission.

>>
>>>>>You may care to respond to my comments, if you wish. That you chose to 
>>>>>remove them, suggests you cannot answer those questions and comments.
>>>>
>>>>That you went off on every and anything presented tells me precisely what 
>>>>I was expecting to see regarding the niggling numbness of the 
>>>>"scientific" agenda.
>>>
>>>
>>>**YOU were the one who claimed that the Bible tabled the "science" of a 
>>>thermo-nulcear blast. If you think it does anything of the sort, then 
>>>present your evidence.
>>
>>I presented material from a website.
> 
> 
> **Then, either retract it, by acknowledging that it is not science, or be 
> prepared to keep defending your position.

I present materail that bears examination.

And not ALL of it from the Bible.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/ancit.htm

ANCIENT CITY FOUND, IRRADIATED FROM ATOMIC BLAST

      Radiation still so intense, the area is highly dangerous.
      A heavy layer of radioactive ash in Rajasthan, India, covers a three
square mile area, ten miles west of Jodhpur.  Scientists are 
investigating the
site, where a housing development was  being built.
      For some time it has been established that there is a very high 
rate of
birth defects and cancer in the area under construction.  The levels of
radiation there have registered so high on investigators' gauges that the
Indian government has now cordoned off the region.
      Scientists have unearthed an ancient city where evidence shows an 
atomic
blast dating back thousands of years, from 8,000 to 12,000 years, destroyed
most of the buildings and probably a half-million people.
      One researcher estimates that the nuclear bomb used was about the 
size of
the ones dropped on Japan in 1945.
      The Mahabharata clearly describes a catastrophic blast that rocked 
the
continent.

      "A single projectile charged with all the power in the Universe... An
incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as 10,000 suns, rose in 
all
its splendour...it was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic
messenger of death which reduced to ashes an entire race.
      "The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable.  Their hair and
nails fell out, pottery broke without any apparent cause, and the birds 
turned
white.
      "After a few hours, all foodstuffs were infected.  To escape from 
this
fire, the soldiers threw themselves into the river."


A HISTORIAN COMMENTS

      Historian Kisari Mohan Ganguli says that Indian sacred writings 
are full
of such descriptions, which sound like an atomic blast  as experienced in
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  He says references  mention fighting sky 
chariots and
final weapons.  An ancient battle is described in the Drona Parva, a 
section
of the Mahabharata.

http://www.ycsi.net/users/reversespins/indianblast.html

The Mahabharata clearly describes a catastrophic blast that rocked the 
continent. "A single projectile charged with all the power in the 
Universe...An incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as 10,000 
suns, rose in all its splendor...it was an unknown weapon, an iron 
thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes an 
entire race.

"The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. Their hair and 
nails fell out, pottery broke without any apparent cause, and the birds 
turned white. After a few hours, all foodstuffs were infected. To escape 
from this fire, the soldiers threw themselves into the river."

Historian Kisari Mohan Ganguli says that Indian sacred writings are full 
of such descriptions, which sound like an atomic blast as experienced in 
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He says references mention fighting sky chariots 
and final weapons. An ancient battle is described in the Drona Parva, a 
section of the Mahabharata. "The passage tells of combat where 
explosions of final weapons decimate entire armies, causing crowds of 
warriors with steeds and elephants and weapons to be carried away as if 
they were dry leaves of trees," says Ganguli.


>>I did not author it, nor did I specifically endorse it.
> 
> 
> **Then don't present it as any kind of truth.
> 
> 
>>YOU seek to deride any person of faith.
> 
> 
> **I seek only the truth.

I suspect that is at best a self-delusion.


>>Your hateful agenda so noted.
> 
> 
> **And your opinion is duly noted.

And not disproven either.