🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>This "pleasant" little news article is for all those out there who felt the need
>to gripe and complain at the Mosaic for X authors for daring to use Motif in a
>program they then gave away free.  If you are not one of these people, or
>don't like harsh language, read no furthur.
>
>This note in no way reflects the opinions of NCSA, the U of I, or the Mosaic
>developement team.  Just my personal little rant and rave.

In fact, this note DOES speak for NCSA and the Mosaic development team. Your
savage, petulant and whiney posting gives great reason for concern over the
status of the Mosaic project in fact. When you've grown up you'll realize that
your outburst is highly innapropriate.

NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
you work for us. 

There are very valid reasons that we don't want to spend our money having
people like you develop for a platform that will require us to spend even
more money on Yet Another Library. There may be reasons that you feel you
need to do so anyways... These should be communicated effectively and without
insults of the type you sling about to your paying customers/clients..
-- 
Any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of The University.
__________________________________________________________________________
\ \  /  Jon Gefaell, Computer Systems Engineer    | Amateur Radio, KD4CQY
 \/\/  A UNIX guy doing Netware - ITC/Carruthers  | -Will chmod for Food-
  \/  The University of Virginia, Charlottesville |  Hacker@Virginia.EDU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> .... (one or two remarks deleted -- Or, as they say in Hansard, "Some Hon.
                                      Members: 'Oh. Oh.'")
>	Eric (I feel much better now) Bina

I think this was badly needed.  Thank you.  I have wondered how you
folks at NCSA had kept your composure (in public) up to now.
For years I have been using software provided freely by NCSA,
and have been very grateful for all of it.  I'm continually amazed
that you can keep providing it.  Thank you for that, as well.

Recipients of free software have no right to expect anything, except
perhaps, absence of malice.

May it be a long time before I see a Subject header with the word 'Motif'
in it.

Cheers

In article <CHMB3H.EKu@cunews.carleton.ca>, nholtz@superior.carleton.ca (Neal Holtz) writes:
>In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>	Eric (I feel much better now) Bina
>
>I think this was badly needed.

I disagree.  I think was rude and served only to vent his spleen at the
expense of others.

>I have wondered how you
>folks at NCSA had kept your composure (in public) up to now.

It's called "self control", and it seems to be in short supply at NCSA.

>For years I have been using software provided freely by NCSA,
>and have been very grateful for all of it.  I'm continually amazed
>that you can keep providing it.  Thank you for that, as well.

I agree.

>Recipients of free software have no right to expect anything, except
>perhaps, absence of malice.

Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
can't make everyone happy.

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)             Computers should work the way beginners
Martin Marietta Energy Systems       expect them to, and one day they will.
Workstation Support                                            -- Ted Nelson
URL http://gatekeeper.dec.com/archive/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html

Eric Bina (ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu) wrote:

: This "pleasant" little news article is for all those out there who felt the need
:     neanderthals like you.  What, you can't program!  Then you are back to number
:     1, with no rights at all, and either get used to using what exists, as opposed
:     to what you want, or throw out your computer and just become a couch potato.

: 3)  Just to prove to myself that I'm not wrong, and the net really is filled
:     with idiots, I sat down to do a quick hack of Mosaic to use the Athena
:     widgets.  Results:  it took 10 hours to have a very basically functioning
:     version running.  10 hours, that is probably less time that it takes most
:     of you morons to just find your fingers when you sit down to write drivel to
:     the net.  But no, did one of you whining worthless bits of flatulence even
:     TRY to make something useful for yourself, and the rest of your fellow
:     nincompoops; not a chance.


 Rule # 1 for NON Idiot or stupid net people :

 NEVER type more than 80 chars :)

 
 I don't feel much better, I just feel good :).

 Greetings

In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Eric Bina) writes:
>

a) I am not a whiner. You know what XS3 stands is for a very fast  X11R5
   server for PCs that I  and a few others contributed to the PC 
   Unix platforms,also , I am a very active developer in the 386bsd arena.

b) I think is good that we express our opinions about Motif apps  in 
   an open forum.

c) Pehaps by discussing or re-stating the Motif licensing issues we may
   actually change the way that OSF does business.

d) I am very happy with mosaic and hundreds if not thousands of 386bsd
   or linux users which are actively contributing in a very open fashion
   will probably not be able to contribute to mosaic. Yes, I know that
   Gustaf also runs Linux.


	Later,
	Amancio
-- 
This message brought to you by the letters X and S and the number 3
Amancio Hasty           |  
Home: (415) 495-3046    |  ftp-site depository of all my work:
e-mail hasty@netcom.com	|  sunvis.rtpnc.epa.gov:/pub/386bsd/X

>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 1993 14:33:16 GMT, nholtz@superior.carleton.ca (Neal
>>> Holtz) said:

Neal> Recipients of free software have no right to expect anything, [
Neal> ... ]

I agree completely with you; I am a free sw author myself. But there is
a huge difference between "expecting" and "suggesting": and all the
trouble about the !@#$ OSF license is about making it very obvious to
free sw authors that if they choose Motif some/many people will not be
able to enjoy their work because of highly unusual and perhaps startling
licensing restrictions on runtime binaries.

Free sw authors remain free to use OSF/Motif, and for that matter to
write free sw that cannot be ported to anything else but Windows 3.1, an
even more highly proprietary environment; but some do care about wider
enjoyability of their work, and some/most perhaps had not realized that
in some/many/most cases OSF/Motif now requires runtime binary royalties,
unlike 99% of other libraries on the market.

After all the noise and shouting, I hope that free sw authors know about
the consequences of making their work dependent on OSF/Motif. They
remain free to choose either way, and will still get loud cheers if they
make their works dependent OSF/Motif, but even louder cheers if they
don't.

Apart from making everybody aware of the extremely unusual licensing of
OSF/Motif, two positive effects have been achieved: there is now a
project to make a library compatible with the OSF/Motif API, and some
good folks at NCSA or otherwise have, in some case out of spite :-> (see
the article that started this thread), proved that a well written
program need not be _that_ dependant on any specific toolkit API.

Incidentally, I did not mention this before, I am sorry: another free sw
author has done a generic, simplified toolkit API library called wxWin;
it offers the usual facilities provided for by most toolkits, and can be
compiled to support OSF/Motif, XView/OpenLook or Windows 3.1; I don't
have any personal experience of using it, but the demos look impressive
and I have been told it is rather solid, and more bells&whistles are
being added.

It would seem to me a rather reasonable alternative to the leading
contender in the contest for toolkit of choice for free sw, Tcl/Tk.

Here is the leaflet describing it:

========================================================================

*****                  Announcing wxWindows 1.50                  *****
***** A Free C++ GUI toolkit for Motif, Open Look and Windows 3.1 *****

>>> wxWindows is a toolkit for developing Windows 3 and
    X applications from the same body of C++ code.

Since the source is provided, wxWindows allows the programmer to add
features as needed. For many programmers, however, wxWindows should be
adequate for a range of applications.

>>> Uses include:

* development of applications for delivery on both X and Windows

* development on one platform for delivery on another

* single-platform development, as a high-level wrapper around XView,
  Motif or Windows

>>> Included in this fourth release:

* Simple-to-use, object-oriented API

* Graphics calls include splines, polylines, rounded rectangles, etc.

* XView-style programmatic panel/dialog item layout

* Support for menu bars and status lines

* Toolbar class

* Pens, brushes, fonts, icons, cursors, bitmaps

* Easy, object-oriented interprocess comms (DDE subset) under
  Windows 3 *and* UNIX

* Encapsulated PostScript generation under UNIX, Windows 3 printing on PC

* Virtually automatic MDI support under Windows

* Support for Windows 3 printer and file selector common dialogs, with
  equivalents for UNIX

* Under Windows 3, support for copying metafiles to the clipboard

* Programmatic form facility for building form-like screens fast,
  with constraints on values

* wxHelp hypertext help system, accessible from applications

* Optional interface to NASA's CLIPS, so an interpreted GUI-building facility can
  be included in wxWindows programs, or used stand-alone.

* All source

* Several examples

* Comprehensive reference manual, with reference in wxHelp form

>>> Requirements:

* On PC, Microsoft C/C++ or Borland C++ 3.1 (sorry, no Borland makefiles yet)
* On UNIX, XView 3.1 or Motif 1.1 and GCC/G++ (or compatible compiler, such as
  AT&T C++)
* Under DOS, maximum 8 MB of disk space, including object files

>>> Where to get it

wxWindows is currently available from the Artificial Intelligence
Applications Institute by anonymous FTP.

FTP to skye.aiai.ed.ac.uk (192.41.104.6), log on as `anonymous', and
give your user ID as password. Change directory into pub/wxwin, change
transmission method to binary, and get wxwin150.tar.Z (UNIX) and/or
wxwin150.zip (PC).  Both archives contain the source code for both
platforms, but only the executable demos for the specific platform
(UNIX and Windows respectively). The demos are available separately as
demo.tar.Z (or wxwindem.tar.Z) and demo.zip (or wxwindem.zip).

wxWindows is expected to be uploaded to the CICA Windows 3 archive at
Indiana University (ftp.cica.indiana.edu), and the British HENSA public
domain software archive (pdsoft.lancs.ac.uk).

>>> Installation

See install.txt.

>>> Bugs, etc.

wxWindows, like most other software, has the occasional buglet. I
would be grateful for bug reports (even better, fixes) though I can't
guarantee to do anything about them. Future releases of wxWindows are
likely to be more stable and more complete.  Meanwhile, do send me your
enhancements, and I will try to incorporate them in future releases.
Here are some ideas for contributions:

* more Xlib wrappers
* an enhanced, editable text subwindow for Windows
* an Xt-like constraint algorithm for laying out widgets
* a Mac version

>>> wxWindows discussion forum

There is a mailing list for users or potential users of wxWindows.
Send a request to wxwin-users-request@aiai.ed.ac.uk to subscribe
the mailing list.

>>> In the pipeline

* Better clipboard support
* A Windows NT version
* Automated GUI testing facilities
* DevGuide to wxWindows utility (user contribution)
* Text-only CURSES version (user contribution)

------------------------------------------------------------------
Julian Smart, September 1993

Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute
University of Edinburgh
80 South Bridge
Edinburgh
Scotland
EH1 1HN

EMAIL: J.Smart@ed.ac.uk
TEL:   031 650 2746

In article <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU (Jon Gefaell) writes:

|> 
|> NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
|> paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
|> community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
|> are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
|> own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
|> you work for us. 
|> 

Wrongo!  Nice try though.  I'm funded by research grants from commercial
companies not your tax money.  So no, I don't work for you.

	Eric

de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) writes:
>In article <CHMB3H.EKu@cunews.carleton.ca>, nholtz@superior.carleton.ca (Neal Holtz) writes:
>>In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>	Eric (I feel much better now) Bina
>>
>>I think this was badly needed.
>
>I disagree.  I think was rude and served only to vent his spleen at the
>expense of others.

It certainly was rude, as was Marc's very low-blow post about the FBI
operations against NASA, Martin Marietta and others.  I am willing at this
point to write it off to youthful inexperience, since I know that Marc, at
least, is a young man without great experience in the software industry.
However, it may be time for their supervisor to explain the deliterious effect
of "spleen-venting" on the funding that pays their salary.

>>I have wondered how you
>>folks at NCSA had kept your composure (in public) up to now.

>It's called "self control", and it seems to be in short supply at NCSA.

Actually, I believe the supply of self-control at NCSA has been adequate.  This
thread about use of Motif has been carrying on for quite some time, and the
proliferation of misinformation is approaching "urban legend" proportions.  I
am throughly convinced that NCSA has done no wrong, however they are repeatedly
being accused of doing so, not by you Mr. Sill, but by others.  That has to
grate on their nerves, and thus we have these intemperate outbursts.  The
outbursts, while not excusable, are at least understandable.  

>>Recipients of free software have no right to expect anything, except
>>perhaps, absence of malice.

>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
>can't make everyone happy.

The crux of the matter here is the definition of "customer".  Is Dave Sill a
customer of NCSA Mosaic, when there was no exchange of funds for the product?
Who did pay for Mosaic?  The tax-payer that provides NCSA with their budget.
How are the tax-payers best served in this case?

I must say that I find the design decisions made by the Mosaic development
team to be excellent.  Using Motif as a basis for the X Window interface covers
the vast majority of the research community they targeted with this program.
Development of Microsoft Windows and Macintosh interfaces cover the vast
majority of the remainder of the information-consuming community on the
Internet.  The team has made the full source code available for use by any
others that wish to develop alternative interfaces.

Still, the question of the licensing restrictions is important.  I definitely
feel that NCSA owes the community a clear and consise statement of the
liability (if any) to the public for use of the binary versions of the Motif
programs they provide.  Speaking as a manager of a data systems development
group in a company that has recently been on the receiving end of a Software
Publishing Association audit, there is no substitute for legalese when it comes
to dealing with legal problems.

To NCSA:  Please provide a statement regarding user liability for the use of
OSF-licensed code provided by your facility in a prominent place in your FTP
directory heirarchy.  It should put to rest most, if not all, of the objections
to your proper selection of Motif as a basis of your interface design.


>-- 
>Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)             Computers should work the way beginners
>Martin Marietta Energy Systems       expect them to, and one day they will.
>Workstation Support                                            -- Ted Nelson
>URL http://gatekeeper.dec.com/archive/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html
--
-- Lee E. Brotzman                    Internet:  brotzman@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
-- Hughes STX, NSSDC                  DECNET:    NSSDCA::BROTZMAN
-- NASA Goddard Space Flight Center   BITNET:    ZMLEB@GIBBS

Lee E. Brotzman (leb@Hypatia.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: The crux of the matter here is the definition of "customer".  Is Dave Sill a
: customer of NCSA Mosaic, when there was no exchange of funds for the product?
: Who did pay for Mosaic?  The tax-payer that provides NCSA with their budget.
: How are the tax-payers best served in this case?

As I've been led to believe, only a portion of our funding comes from the
state or from the NSF, the rest from commercial concerns. Just a statement
of fact, take it how you like; I'm trying very hard to stay out of this
argument.

--
Rob McCool, robm@ncsa.uiuc.edu Software
Development Group, National Center for Supercomputing Applications It was
working ten minutes ago, I swear...

In article <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU (Jon Gefaell) says:
+---------------
| In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
| Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
| >This "pleasant" little news article is for all those out there who felt the need
| >to gripe and complain at the Mosaic for X authors for daring to use Motif in a
| >program they then gave away free.  If you are not one of these people, or
| >don't like harsh language, read no furthur.
| >
| >This note in no way reflects the opinions of NCSA, the U of I, or the Mosaic
| >developement team.  Just my personal little rant and rave.
| 
| In fact, this note DOES speak for NCSA and the Mosaic development team. Your
| savage, petulant and whiney posting gives great reason for concern over the
| status of the Mosaic project in fact. When you've grown up you'll realize that
| your outburst is highly innapropriate.
+---------------

There's also the point that there are two *different* discussions going on:

* about NCSA Mosaic using OSF/Motif, and
* about OSF/Motif licensing in general.

Several times I've seen NCSA folks jumping on people who are only addressing
the second point, as if it was targeted at NCSA Mosaic.  It's not.  NCSA can
do whatever it wants; the point remains that OSF/Motif 1.2.x's licensing is
considered A Bad Thing by quite a few people, who are looking for *some* way
out of it:  reimplementation, convincing OSF to change its licensing,
whatever.  This can be viewed as *another* expression of childishness on the
part of *some* people at NCSA.

****NOTE:  I don't consider those outbursts to be official statements of
****NOTE:  NCSA.  The official statement has already been posted, and I am
****NOTE:  not disputing it.

Unfortunately, the childishness is on both sides.  Which is normal for Usenet.
And does neither side any good.  The ones who aren't being childish are too
busy *doing* *something* *constructive* to post in these two threads....

++Brandon
-- 
Brandon S. Allbery	   kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org		 bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org
"MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years
of careful development."  ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca
Do not taunt Happy Fun Coder.	(seen on the Net...)

   >> NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't
   >> you? It is paid for by the taxpayers money and should be
   >> responsive to the needs of the community it is intended for. If
   >> those people (your underwriters and audience) are complaining,
   >> you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your own
   >> thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the
   >> meantime you work for us.

   I am curious is your Motif license also funded by grants from
   commercial companies or are you using the University's tax payer
   paid Motif license?

These are the silliest arguments I've heard yet.  Even ignoring NCSA's
actual funding situation, you are completely off base.

First, as I've explained previously, the decision to use Motif was
deliberate and made on the basis of our intention to create stable,
high-function application code on top of common, vendor-supported
system-level software.  Motif is OBVIOUSLY, OVERWHELMINGLY the GUI of
choice on high-performance Unix/X workstations, and every major vendor
is now supporting it.  In fact, if we had NOT gone with Motif, I'd say
you would be able to make the argument that we were squandering
hypothetical said taxpayers' money by not basing our hypothetically
taxpayer-funded tools on stable, high-function, common,
vendor-supported libraries and spending resources dealing with the
effects of such a choice rather than on new and useful results.

Second, the community we were aiming for with the X version of Mosaic
-- people using common high-performance workstations with standard
system-level software, particularly to do scientific computing -- is
virtually entirely satisfied with our choice of GUI *and* with our
software (as, btw, is the National Science Foundation itself; c.f. the
head of NSF's Supercomputing 93 keynote address).  We have clearly and
overwhelmingly fulfilled our obligation to said hypothetical taxpayer:
100,000 satisfied target users served, and climbing.

Third, given the above, it's just your lucky day as someone either
outside or just on the edge of said target user community that we both
(a) make the source code for the X version freely available for you to
either port to the GUI of your choice OR to freely compile and use as
you are able, AND (b) supply a Microsoft Windows version of Mosaic
that AGAIN hits its target audience -- the vast majority of
386/486/Pentium users -- dead on.  We are pleased to be able to offer
you such a wide array of possible ways to benefit from the results of
our work, and we hope that we are thereby able to improve your life.

Fourth, if the above still doesn't make you happy, tough luck.  It is
not possible for you to draw the blanket conclusion that "we work for
you" and therefore must do everything you say, just because we may be
funded with public money.  The DMV, though funded with public money,
is not obligated to grant you a driver's license; a police officer,
though funded with public money, is not obligated to let you off the
hook when you're going 95 MPH; the Supreme Court, though funded with
public money, is not obligated to find in your favor in a given case.

Summary: we are doing our jobs; we are responding to the needs of our
target audience; you do not get to tell us what to do simply because
you are a citizen and we are (partially) publicly funded.

Marc

--
Marc Andreessen
Software Development Group
National Center for Supercomputing Applications
marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu (MIME welcomed here)

In article <2e01ct$ddl@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Eric Bina) writes:
>In article <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU (Jon Gefaell) writes:
>
>|> 
>|> NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
>|> paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
>|> community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
>|> are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
>|> own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
>|> you work for us. 
>|> 
>
>Wrongo!  Nice try though.  I'm funded by research grants from commercial
>companies not your tax money.  So no, I don't work for you.
>

I am curious is your Motif license also funded by grants from
commercial companies or are you using the University's tax payer
paid Motif license?

	Amancio


-- 
This message brought to you by the letters X and S and the number 3
Amancio Hasty           |  
Home: (415) 495-3046    |  ftp-site depository of all my work:
e-mail hasty@netcom.com	|  sunvis.rtpnc.epa.gov:/pub/386bsd/X

In article <1993Dec6.153330.29733@ornl.gov> de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) writes:
>In article <CHMB3H.EKu@cunews.carleton.ca>, nholtz@superior.carleton.ca (Neal Holtz) writes:
>>In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>	Eric (I feel much better now) Bina
>>
>>I think this was badly needed.

Agreed.

>I disagree.  I think was rude and served only to vent his spleen at the
>expense of others.
>
>>I have wondered how you
>>folks at NCSA had kept your composure (in public) up to now.
>
>It's called "self control", and it seems to be in short supply at NCSA.
>
>>For years I have been using software provided freely by NCSA,
>>and have been very grateful for all of it.  I'm continually amazed
>>that you can keep providing it.  Thank you for that, as well.
>
>I agree.
>
>>Recipients of free software have no right to expect anything, except
>>perhaps, absence of malice.
>
>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
>can't make everyone happy.

Freeware developers appreciate constructive feedback, but they don't
appreciate demands from those who choose to use their software.  From
my experience, expectations of users are too often presented to the
developers in the form of demands, and often rudely.

I think your use of "customer" to describe the users of free software
is inappropriate.  What exactly is the "peril" producers face?  That fewer
people use their software?  So what?

Are you speaking as a user of free software or a developer?

David
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 David Dawes <dawes@physics.su.oz.au>    DoD#210      | Phone: +61 2 692 2639
 School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia   | Fax:   +61 2 660 2903
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  You run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
  and racing around to come up behind you again.  -- Pink Floyd, "Time"

In article <hastyCHnL07.7v1@netcom.com>, hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) writes:
> In article <2e01ct$ddl@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Eric Bina) writes:
> >In article <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU (Jon Gefaell) writes:
> >
> >> 
> >> NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
> >> paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
> >> community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
> >> are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
> >> own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
> >> you work for us. 
> >> 
> >
> >Wrongo!  Nice try though.  I'm funded by research grants from commercial
> >companies not your tax money.  So no, I don't work for you.
> >
> 
> I am curious is your Motif license also funded by grants from
> commercial companies or are you using the University's tax payer
> paid Motif license?
> 
> 	Amancio

I can't believe I'm getting dragged into this, but isn't it time that some
people grew up around here.  The above is nothing more than a childish
taunt IMO.  

Perhaps we need some positive feedback to Marc, Rob and Eric to balance the
negative crap they've been getting recently.  Thanks to all of them for
providing some excellent software, and for dragging the HTTP and HTML
protocol suite into a damn fine system.  I make no contribution to their
financing whatsoever, being a UK person, and still they let me use the fruits
of their time and effort at no cost, and provide a friendly and useful 
support function whenever things do go wrong.

I love Mosiac, and the NCSA httpd, and I hope all this crap doesn't put them
off futher development.  If you don't like the way Mosaic is developing,
bugger off and find another browser.  

Thanks NCSA people!

Marcus

----
m.roberts@cs.nott.ac.uk                    Communications Research Group  
                                           Dept. of Computer Science
                                           Nottingham University, UK         
   

In article <MARCA.93Dec7024328@wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu>, marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Marc Andreessen) writes:
|>Summary: we are doing our jobs; we are responding to the needs of our
|>target audience; you do not get to tell us what to do simply because
|>you are a citizen and we are (partially) publicly funded.
|>

Amen....

In the midst of this totally insane discussion and despite the fact that the
OSF lawyers are the most difficult people to deal with in my professional
career (well maybe except for the accounting people at CA), I would like to
make a few simple points:

Mosaic is an exceptionally well designed application and is almost perfectly
targeted. It is impacting our world in ways more important than all the
previous free stuff that computer weenies -- including me 8-) -- have done,
used, etc. I applaud the work done at NCSA and hope like hell it continues.

In terms of their choice of Motif, there was simply no other rational choice.
In the GUI world it isn't good enough to have a good look and feel, it has to
be the same look and feel as the other tools you use. Almost every commercial
tool for X11 is Motif or going to be Motif. Anyone who suggests that this was
a poor choice has no grip on the thousands of "just plain users" that folks
like me have to consider.

I do not want to depend on somebody's spare time project designed with the
highest priority on eliminating any possibility of a royalty. I want a well
designed application built to fit in with everything else that I have to use.
I believe that I can depend on Mosaic and the information system strategies we
are taking will depend on Mosaic. Keep at it guys...

Dr. Bill Willis
Associate Provost for Academic Computing
North Carolina State University.

ps. I would like a single resource that let me set the font family/size used in
the html widget without having to set all of the fonts individually... 

hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) writes:

>>Wrongo!  Nice try though.  I'm funded by research grants from commercial
>>companies not your tax money.  So no, I don't work for you.
>>

>I am curious is your Motif license also funded by grants from
>commercial companies or are you using the University's tax payer
>paid Motif license?

Oh man, cut it out....


-- 
Oliver Boehmer, Frankfurt - Germany			oli@odb.rhein-main.de
 Individual Network - Rhein-Main-Area
   Q: How many Zen buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?
   A: Two. One to change it and one to not change it.

[ Marcus Roberts said: ]

> I love Mosiac, and the NCSA httpd, and I hope all this crap doesn't put them
> off futher development.  If you don't like the way Mosaic is developing,
> bugger off and find another browser.  
>
> Thanks NCSA people!

Ditto!

All *I* want for Christmas...

1.  More software - like Mosaic and httpd 

2.  More anchors in the universe - bon voyage!!!

3.  More docs - no MDs please!!!

4.  More of this thread?  Hey! It's almost as much fun as watching
my ferrets. :-)


Hmmm, where's that amendment about freedom of kill files...

bobj

In article <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Jon Gefaell,
jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU writes:
>NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
>paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
>community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
>are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
>own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
>you work for us. 
>
>There are very valid reasons that we don't want to spend our money having
>people like you develop for a platform that will require us to spend even
>more money on Yet Another Library. There may be reasons that you feel you
>need to do so anyways... These should be communicated effectively and without
>insults of the type you sling about to your paying customers/clients..

Why, those rat fink bastards at NCSA!  They developed Mosaic to run only on
the platforms THEY chose, so if you have a TRS-80 or an Amiga or an Apple III,
and you want to run Mosaic, you have to go out and spend YOUR money and BUY
one of the platforms THEY chose to support!  Heinous!  Inexcusable!  They
should have used the taxpayers' money to support these systems, and besides,
they should have reimplemented Motif or at least done the extra work to avoid
using anything that isn't FREE.  And then they had the gall to give Mosaic
away for FREE!  And then, after being abused for a few days by a bunch of
incredibly well-informed, mature, courteous, reasonable, rational people on
the Net, one of them was so unbelievably ill-bred as to complain about it!

Call in Jesse Helms, these people are as bad as (insert your favorite artistic
villain here).  Cut their funding.  Send them to Somalia.  Make them write
everything in Basic and Fortran.  Make them support Mosaic on HyperCard and in
Excel macros.  That'll teach those smartass SOB's a lesson and remind them of
whom they are working for.

-------------

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!

hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) writes:

>>|> own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
>>|> you work for us. 
>>|> 
>>
>>Wrongo!  Nice try though.  I'm funded by research grants from commercial
>>companies not your tax money.  So no, I don't work for you.

>I am curious is your Motif license also funded by grants from
>commercial companies or are you using the University's tax payer
>paid Motif license?

     My bet the Motif license they are using is the UofI site license
(which I think is a source license...aren't I jealous!).  The building
they use was probably funded with at least some state/federal money
(even if they work in Beckman, I wouldn't believe no federal money was
used).  The Internet connection probably involves tax payer money.  So
what?  I would really like to fly an F16, but the military says I
can't.  NASA produces software, but you have to buy it from COSMIC. 
Wait, I paid for them to develope something and now I have to pay to
get it?  Yup!

     This whole thing is pretty darn silly.  The only thing that upsets
me is that Mr. Bina spent 10 hours converting XMosaic to Athena; a
total sinkhole in terms of time spent.  Somehow, I feel it is my fault
for not defending the choice of Motif (in terms of posts, it looked
like everybody was against NCSA).  I showed somebody Mosaic once and he
was impressed; it is once of the most beautiful looking X applications
we had seen.

     I, therefore, put up $50 (sorry, I am a student now -- I don't have
much) in the hopes of getting matching funds.  By my calculations, Mr.
Bina's work on the conversion is worth about a $1000.  Any takers?

P.S.Is the Mosaic team going to "support" this Athena version?  Costs
could get out of control...
P.S.S.Sorry about any typos; testing out a new terminal server; appears
to be dropping characters...
-- 
Benjamin Z. Goldsteen

In article <CHnw0r.Fus@ucc.su.OZ.AU>, dawes@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Dawes) writes:
>In article <1993Dec6.153330.29733@ornl.gov> de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) writes:
>>
>>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
>>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
>>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
>>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
>>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
>>can't make everyone happy.
>
>Freeware developers appreciate constructive feedback, but they don't
>appreciate demands from those who choose to use their software.  From
>my experience, expectations of users are too often presented to the
>developers in the form of demands, and often rudely.

Two wrongs don't make a right.  Sure, some people have been rude to the
Mosaic developers--I don't condone that at all.  However, the developers
responded in kind--even to those who were nothing but polite to them.

>I think your use of "customer" to describe the users of free software
>is inappropriate.

Whether they pay (directly) or not, or don't even pay indirectly through
their taxes, people that use Mosaic are still NCSA's customers, and they
deserve to be treated with respect--provided they are respectful
themselves.

>What exactly is the "peril" producers face?  That fewer
>people use their software?

That's certainly one peril.  Another is a backlash resulting in reduced
funding by corporate donors and government agencies.

>So what?

I'd be willing to bet that NCSA is *quite* concerned about the popularity
of their products.  If they aren't popular, they won't attract attention,
which will jeopardize future funding.

>Are you speaking as a user of free software or a developer?

Both.

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)             Computers should work the way beginners
Martin Marietta Energy Systems       expect them to, and one day they will.
Workstation Support                                            -- Ted Nelson
URL http://gatekeeper.dec.com/archive/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html

In article <1993Dec6.153330.29733@ornl.gov>, de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) writes:

|>In article <CHMB3H.EKu@cunews.carleton.ca>, nholtz@superior.carleton.ca (Neal Holtz) writes:
|>>In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
|>>>
|>>>	Eric (I feel much better now) Bina
|>>
|>>I think this was badly needed.
|>
|>I disagree.  I think was rude and served only to vent his spleen at the
|>expense of others.
|>
|>>I have wondered how you
|>>folks at NCSA had kept your composure (in public) up to now.
|>
|>It's called "self control", and it seems to be in short supply at NCSA.

Hardly.... I am amazed that they have kept quiet for so long.


Those people whinging for a Tk-TCL browser please note:-

	IT ALREADY EXISTS

	IT EXISTED BEFORE MOSAIC WAS RELEASED

	IT IS AVALIABLE FROM info.cern.ch 


Those people whinging for a free browser for platform ???

	IT ALMOST CERTAINLY EXISTS

	WHY NOT FIND OUT BEFORE FLAMING NCSA FOR NOT PRODUCING IT


Whinging at NCSA for using Motif is a stupid as whinging at the Xrn people
for using X. Mosaic is not the web, the web is simply the idea of a URL
and to a lesser degree HTML and HTTP. Just as people are using Tin, Xrn,
Mxrn, gnews etc to read this post you can use Viola, TKWWW, WWW, Mambo
or even (gasp!) Mosaic to use the Web.


|>>For years I have been using software provided freely by NCSA,
|>>and have been very grateful for all of it.  I'm continually amazed
|>>that you can keep providing it.  Thank you for that, as well.
|>
|>I agree.
|>
|>>Recipients of free software have no right to expect anything, except
|>>perhaps, absence of malice.
|>
|>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
|>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
|>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
|>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
|>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
|>can't make everyone happy.

Your model of how free software arrives is completely wrong. My guess is that
NCSA joined the W3 project because they were interested in hypertext info
systems and Tim's HTML and HTTP seemed to be a good basis for things they
wanted to do, like add in the images and sounds and such.

Being masochists they decided to release Mosaic so that other people could also
benefit from it. This is in itself a lot of work. Probably a damn sight more 
than writing it in the first place. How many dweebs do you think contact 
NCSA per day complaining that the tar file they ftp'd in asci mode is corrupted?
Several hundred silly problems is a hell of a lot of work. Add to that the
people who can't get it going because their machine is broken (incompatible
UNIX, broken X server, etc...)


This discussion is hardly productive. It is seriously pissing off a guy (not
at NCSA) with an editing browser which provides meta-protocols, async I/O and
user definable tags (including maths and graphics). Perhaps if you guys all stop
pestering NCSA over their entirely reasonable decision to use Mosaic he might 
conclude that finishing and releasing it might be a good thing. If you 
continue he might decide not to bother and that he can save himself a hell
of a lot of hassle.


--
Phillip M. Hallam-Baker

Not Speaking for anyone else.

In article <1993Dec8.155359.25579@dxcern.cern.ch>, hallam@dxal18.cern.ch (HALLAM-BAKER Phillip) writes:
>
>Whinging at NCSA for using Motif is a stupid as whinging at the Xrn people
>for using X.

What is "whinging"?

>|Dave Sill said:
>|>
>|>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
>|>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
>|>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
>|>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
>|>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
>|>can't make everyone happy.
>
>Your model of how free software arrives is completely wrong.

What model did you infer from my statement?

>Being masochists they decided to release Mosaic so that other people could also
>benefit from it.

Being largely publicly funded...

>This is in itself a lot of work. Probably a damn sight more 
>than writing it in the first place. How many dweebs do you think contact 
>NCSA per day complaining that the tar file they ftp'd in asci mode is corrupted?

I think you're probably overstating the problem.

>This discussion is hardly productive.

Discussion is rarely productive.

>It is seriously pissing off a guy (not
>at NCSA) with an editing browser which provides meta-protocols, async I/O and
>user definable tags (including maths and graphics). Perhaps if you guys all stop
>pestering NCSA over their entirely reasonable decision to use Mosaic he might 
>conclude that finishing and releasing it might be a good thing. If you 
>continue he might decide not to bother and that he can save himself a hell
>of a lot of hassle.

If he's going to be a curmudeon, expect people to be infinitely grateful to
him for gracing us with his code, or freak out if/when people gripe at
him, he probably *should* keep it to himself.

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)             Computers should work the way beginners
Martin Marietta Energy Systems       expect them to, and one day they will.
Workstation Support                                            -- Ted Nelson
URL http://gatekeeper.dec.com/archive/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html

At the risk of being out in the open here, I like Mosaic, and I think
they did well to use Motif.  It's cute, it's quick (ish), and it's
stable (er).  If I can actually *find* Marc, next time I'm in
Illinois, I'm going to buy him and Eric a beer and thank them in
person.

Sheeit, some people don't know when they got it good.

Nat

ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Eric Bina) writes:

>4)  So here is my Christmas gift to you.  On ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu in 
>    /outgoing/ebina you will find the source of the hacked Mosaic
>    (Mosaic2.0-Xaw.tar.Z) and a sparc binary (Mosaic-sun-Xaw.Z)

But, I can't fit Xaw and XMosaic into my Game Boy (whine whine whine).
Why didn't you just spend 11 hours and give me a Xlib only version?
After all, I'm a taxpayer and I have rights!!!!  I'm gonna write my
congressman about you guys.

-Rick

Gosh - do I really need smilies here?  Umm... better be safe :-) :-) :-)

--
Rick Richardson		Senior Staff Engineer	NCSA Mosaic -
DigiBoard, Inc.		Email: rick@digibd.com	#1 reason for a national
6400 Flying Cloud Dr.	Fax:   (612) 943-0803	(toll-free) data highway.
Eden Prarie, MN 55344	Tel:   (612) 943-5383	<standard disclaimer>

/* No #define FLAMING is needed,
 * 'cause it's inherited from the subject thread
 */

STOP THIS FLAMING!!!!

YOU ARE USING ABOUT 25 PERCENT OF THE BANDWIDTH

If you want to continue flaming each other, do it on the alt channels

THIS CHANNEL IS MEANT FOR ***** D E V E L O P M E N T ******

#undef FLAMING

Kai

In article <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU (Jon Gefaell) writes:
>
> NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
> paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
> community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
> are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
> own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
> you work for us. 
> __________________________________________________________________________
> \ \  /  Jon Gefaell, Computer Systems Engineer    | Amateur Radio, KD4CQY
>  \/\/  A UNIX guy doing Netware - ITC/Carruthers  | -Will chmod for Food-
>   \/  The University of Virginia, Charlottesville |  Hacker@Virginia.EDU
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Give me a break!!!  I am sick and tired of all these whiners.  Everyone
on the NCSA Mosaic team should be applauded for all of the work that they
have done over the past year.  Did you not read all of Eric's note and
see that he even went to the trouble to develop an Athena version of Mosaic.
Yeah sure our tax dollars fund NCSA, but I think they have produced more
per dollar than most any other Federal program this year.

BTW, I am a Virginia tax payer, what have YOU done for ME lately Mr. Gefaell?

Stop your whining!

-- 
Mark A. Krause			mkrause@mitre.org
The MITRE Corporation		Mail Stop W273
7525 Colshire Drive		(703)883-7642 (Voice)		
McLean, VA 22102		(703)883-6478 (Fax)

In article <CHoC77.8Ir@lut.ac.uk>, M.T.Hamilton@lut.ac.uk (Martin Hamilton) writes:
|> [ Marcus Roberts said: ]
|> 
|> > I love Mosiac, and the NCSA httpd, and I hope all this crap doesn't put them
|> > off futher development.  If you don't like the way Mosaic is developing,
|> > bugger off and find another browser.  
|> >
|> > Thanks NCSA people!
|> 
|> Ditto!

Thanks from me, too!
And I am sure from all the "freshies" in our labs, too, who use Mosaic for
X11 and our ncsa-httpd all day long as the primary infosystem to get help
and from all the others, too, who use it to explore the universe.

	\Maex
-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
 Markus Stumpf                        Markus.Stumpf@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE 

In article <1993Dec7.184826.15665@gallant.apple.com>,
David Casseres  <casseres@apple.com> wrote:
>In article <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Jon Gefaell,
>jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU writes:
>>NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
>>paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
>>community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
>>are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
>>own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
>>you work for us. 
>>
>>There are very valid reasons that we don't want to spend our money having
>>people like you develop for a platform that will require us to spend even
>>more money on Yet Another Library. There may be reasons that you feel you
>>need to do so anyways... These should be communicated effectively and without
>>insults of the type you sling about to your paying customers/clients..
>
>Why, those rat fink bastards at NCSA!  They developed Mosaic to run only on
>the platforms THEY chose, so if you have a TRS-80 or an Amiga or an Apple III,
>and you want to run Mosaic, you have to go out and spend YOUR money and BUY
>one of the platforms THEY chose to support!  Heinous!  Inexcusable!  They
>should have used the taxpayers' money to support these systems, and besides,
>they should have reimplemented Motif or at least done the extra work to avoid
>using anything that isn't FREE.  And then they had the gall to give Mosaic
>away for FREE!  And then, after being abused for a few days by a bunch of
>incredibly well-informed, mature, courteous, reasonable, rational people on
>the Net, one of them was so unbelievably ill-bred as to complain about it!
>
>Call in Jesse Helms, these people are as bad as (insert your favorite artistic
>villain here).  Cut their funding.  Send them to Somalia.  Make them write
>everything in Basic and Fortran.  Make them support Mosaic on HyperCard and in
>Excel macros.  That'll teach those smartass SOB's a lesson and remind them of
>whom they are working for.

You obviously have a personal agenda to promote instead of trying to understand
what I wrote. Unfortunate. I specificaly mentioned that there are reasons to
promote either side of the argument, but that the insults hurled by the Mosaic
developer were heinous and counter to the mission of NCSA.

I've gotten tons of flames for what I said but I stand by it. Religious
Zealots with nothing more than Jihad on their minds can use my /dev/flame
(a humorous? link to /dev/null) :)
-- 
Any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of The University.
__________________________________________________________________________
\ \  /  Jon Gefaell, Computer Systems Engineer    | Amateur Radio, KD4CQY
 \/\/  A UNIX guy doing Netware - ITC/Carruthers  | -Will chmod for Food-
  \/  The University of Virginia, Charlottesville |  Hacker@Virginia.EDU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article <1993Dec7.184826.15665@gallant.apple.com>,
David Casseres  <casseres@apple.com> wrote:
>
>Call in Jesse Helms, these people are as bad as (insert your favorite artistic
>villain here).  Cut their funding.  Send them to Somalia.  Make them write
>everything in Basic and Fortran.  Make them support Mosaic on HyperCard and in
>Excel macros.  That'll teach those smartass SOB's a lesson and remind them of
>whom they are working for.

Totally irrelevant to this discussion, but as some of you may be aware, 
CONCERT-CONNECT, the dialup internet service previously provided by the
North Carolina regional ISP, was recently sold to Capitol Broadcasting. 
Thus the company that first brought you Jesse Helms can now bring you 
alt.sex.bestiality.barney

Of course our beloved senator is probably the only NC politician not to 
have an internet connection; after all the shock might be too much for his
poor old heart. Anybody want to club up to buy him a modem?

Simon
-- 
Hackers Local 42- National Union of Computer Operatives, Chapel Hill section
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tar Heel Information Services - Nothing but net!   | WAIS/Z39.50 spoken here
North Carolina - First in Usenet	| DoD #612 | Tel: +1-919-962-9107

In <CHMB0z.ALE@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jeg7e@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU (Jon Gefaell) writes:
[vituperation deleted]
>NCSA is not some private corporation, you do realize this don't you? It is
>paid for by the taxpayers money and should be responsive to the needs of the
>community it is intended for. If those people (your underwriters and audience)
>are complaining, you need to hear that and respond. If you want to do your
>own thing then start your own company with your own capital. In the meantime
>you work for us. 

Jon is apparently unacquainted with just what the acronym "NCSA" stands for
(National Center for _Supercomputing_ Applications).  So, unless you have a
Paragon or a Cray on your desk, they in fact *don't* work for you.

Rob
--
Rob Knauerhase   [knauer@ibeam.intel.com]   Intel Mobile Software Lab
  "... the industry's future may be taking shape in a secluded Intel
   Corporation laboratory tucked among the farm fields of Oregon."
     -- John Markoff, _New York Times_

In article <CI2Hsv.ArI@ibeam.intel.com>, knauer@ibeam.intel.com (Rob Knauerhase) writes:
>
>Jon is apparently unacquainted with just what the acronym "NCSA" stands for
>(National Center for _Supercomputing_ Applications).  So, unless you have a
>Paragon or a Cray on your desk, they in fact *don't* work for you.

Ah, so they *do* work for me.  :-)

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)             Computers should work the way beginners
Martin Marietta Energy Systems       expect them to, and one day they will.
Workstation Support                                            -- Ted Nelson
URL http://gatekeeper.dec.com/archive/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html

In article <CHo5tu.18q@odb.rhein-main.de>, oli@odb.rhein-main.de (Oliver Boehmer) writes:
|>>>Wrongo!  Nice try though.  I'm funded by research grants from commercial
|>>>companies not your tax money.  So no, I don't work for you.
|>>>
|>
|>>I am curious is your Motif license also funded by grants from
|>>commercial companies or are you using the University's tax payer
|>>paid Motif license?
|>
|>Oh man, cut it out....
|>

Exactly. There are THOUSANDS of ways tax pays are wasted which are IMHO
more evil than this one.

--
+-o-+--------------------------------------------------------+-o-+
| o |		    \\\- Brain Inside -///		     | o |
| o |			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^			     | o |
| o | Andre' Beck (ABPSoft) Andre_Beck@IRS.Inf.TU-Dresden.de | o |
+-o-+--------------------------------------------------------+-o-+

[Some people's assertions that Marc & Eric work for them because
they receive public funding deleted.]

Of course, the $1E-3 of your taxes that winds up in the pockets of
the NCSA Mosaic development team hardly pays for their spending
dozens of hours fulfilling your personal request, any more than
I would be justified in demanding a ride on a Navy F-14 because
my taxes helped pay for it (something for which there would be
a rather higher public demand, I would think).  Marc & Eric take their
orders from their boss, period, who receives about the same amount of
your money and is therefore answerable to you for about 1E-7 part
of the direction the work takes.

-- 
This is news.  This is your       |    Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news.  Any questions?    |    (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)

I HOPE WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE THIS TOPIC AFTER 25 DEC.

JOYEUX NOEL TOUT LE MONDE

-- 

Ken Sarkies

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Sauve qui peut, la Grande Panique,
Rien n'est simple, tout se complique.
- Sempe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  [8-)#  (balding, bespectacled, eversmiling scratchy-bearded me)