🚀 go-pugleaf

As lame a subject as this is (directory characters...), I can't 
imagine we're dignifying it with discussion.

As most know we maintain an Internet Users Group within our site.  We
have just added an exciting new feature to our Users Group allowing
you to link your web or ftp files in our searchable files database.  

If you have a web/ftp site which maintains files (public domain,
shareware or commercial) we would like to link your files in our
database which will include a reference to you. 

We feel the database will not only create a comprehensive files
directory, but will also promote those sites which are distributing
their files.

By the way ... you have haven't joined our Users Group you should
consider the idea of networking with hundreds of other programmers.

Craig David Horton
DBasics Software Company
http://pacificnet.net/~dbasics/users_group

P.S.  Starting Monday, January 8th you will be able to reach us at the
following URL ......  http://www.dbasic.com/users_group
Please make a note of this in your bookmark file

dbasics@pacificnet.net (DBasics Software Company) wrote:

: I appreciate everyone's attempt to educate me on the history of UNIX
: and DOS syntax.  I thought it was obvious that I was attempting to
: cover up my improper use of "/" in our URL by moonlighting as a
: comedian.  I was wrong.
: 
: To try to bring the dry humor to light .... I am dyslexic.  I didn't
: intend for my article to be taken so seriously in it's content.
: Ironic how this had turned into a discussion of it's own.  
: 
: Please quit sending me private email asking me to burn things
: into my gray brain cells.  My brain cells have enough on their mind.

A bit off topic, aren't we?


Have fun,
Alex

I have no idea why I am taking the time to write this.  You're the
same one who threatened to have a CGI script bombard me with thousands
of bogus emails.  I really have to consider the maturity level of the
poster before responding .... ah but I'm a sucker for a good bar room
fight anyday.

>ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:

>a bunch of stuff that basically comes down to the fact that he wants to 
>be able to increase his traffic on his site and wants to do it by being a 
>"little" yahoo specific to "developers" -- better to list your site in 
>yahoo, where people actually go, or altavista.digital.com, or better yet, 
>goto submit-it and use the forms there if you want to create links to 
>your site...

Silly you.  Don't you do your homework before flaming?  MOST traffic
on one's site is through links at other sites.   The "infamous" yahoo
search engines account for a mere fraction of the hits.  I wonder why
they call this the Internet.  Could it have something to do with
networking?    Can you say networking?  No, not flaming .... I said
networking!

>Let's see, with how many million using the Internet... your users group 
>is what.. how many? and of those, how many are "repeat" and how many 
>times and how often?

Who Knows ... Who Cares!   Considering my site has only been in
operation for 3 months now ..... and considering it's had over 5,000
"original" hits ..... there must be something to the concept.  To be
honest, I could care less if someone felt the site isn't worth
revisiting.  To each his own.  I have specific goals and plans for the
site which does NOTHING more than promote the "Lone Eagles" in
programming. 

Of the "millions" on the Internet ... now many are literate enough to 
know what an autoexec.bat does?   Well we've just narrowed the
field down now haven't we?  

Of the "millions" who will be coming online this year .... a VAST
majority thinks checksum is some banking function.  And the
rest of those wouldn't know their URL's from a hole-in-the-ground.

In a way you are right though.  I do want programmers to be active in 
my site.  But don't think it's because I get off of on counter totals.
Let me tell you my main motivation Mr. Flame!    Remember (just a
few lines ago) I spoke of the vast majority?   They are my bread and
butter.  The non-programming world is where I make my green backs. 
But isn't it ironic that's the average client for most programmers.   

Now let's do some basic logic here:   If you have a group of several
hundred programmers at one site .... do you think Mr. and Mrs.
Average is going to pull the programming rabbit out of the Yahoo hat?
I think not!  And if they did ... no big deal.   After all, Mr. and
Mrs.  Average will have many little averages following them.  

Also most project managers, in search of a programmer, also realize
that time is money and a person could be cashing in their wills by the
time they find just the "right" programmer in some of those engines.

But let's give credit where it's due.  The yahoo's on the Internet do
bring  in a  .fraction of the hits.   There!  I gave it it's due
credit.

>Or use usenat and make it thousands, maybe even millions... and to think 
>thapeople can get your postings from www.altavista.digital.com, infoseek, 
>dejanews, and even the local news server...

SO?  What' the point?  Because their's a mouse-trap it can't be
improved upon or enhanced?   You've got such an AOL mentality!

>and when does the advertising start? Or will there be user fees?

Damn I hate to pop your bubble .... but there won't be on both cases.
I was going to charge to put the files online .... but said what the
heck.  I even give web site space to those who ask!  But if it would
make you feel better.  For you .... I'll charge!

Now get your butt back over to the CGI group where you belong and keep
the CGI newsgroup flaming attitude for your own neighborhood.  

Craig David Horton
DBasics Software Company
http://www.dbasic.com


Craig David Horton
DBasics Software Company
http://www.dbasic.com

Oh, Mr. Ivler I forgot to share something with the rest of the
readers.  The following is a response you posted when I started the
Users Group.  You even wanted to have the Users Group listed in the
CGI FAQ.   Now how can one do such an about turn?  Is it because we
don't know how to keep our personal feelings aside?  Anyhow, here's
your glowing endorsement:

=======================================================

>ivler@crl.com wrote:

>Tom, I would like to have this added to the FAQ. Before you post a 
>question on the internet Pleasse try 
>http://pacificnet.net/~dbasics/users_group, where a bunch of 
>programers will help answer all your questions, and won't flame you 
>for asking the same question that has been asked 100 times before.

That was written by you on December 4th, 1995!  So what's the bug up
your butt?


Craig David Horton
DBasics Software Company
http://www.dbasic.com


Craig David Horton
DBasics Software Company
http://www.dbasic.com

DBasics Software Company (chorton@dbasic.com) wrote:
: I have no idea why I am taking the time to write this.  You're the
: same one who threatened to have a CGI script bombard me with thousands
: of bogus emails.  I really have to consider the maturity level of the
: poster before responding .... ah but I'm a sucker for a good bar room
: fight anyday.

A CGI script to do e-mail "bombard"ing... heheheheh Okay, let's start 
with what a CGI script can do... oh why bother... Had you said I had 
"threatened" to bombard you with e-mail, or make an agent to do so, that 
would have been acceptable (I wouldn't, but at least you would have 
sounded like you knew what you were talking about.). What I said was I 
was going to do exactly what I did, follow up you postings with opinions 
of your service, and the quality of that service. But I really don't have 
to do much... Bombard you with e-mail from a CGI script... hehehehe

Folks, take the rest of the posting any way you like. My opinions of the 
author and his service stand. If you want answers, stay on usenet.

: on one's site is through links at other sites.   The "infamous" yahoo
: search engines account for a mere fraction of the hits.  I wonder why

Gee, please share with me the secret of the great "infamous" yahoo search 
engine. Is it a web-walker, web-crawler, web-weaver, web-dancer, or just 
a figment of your imagination?

: SO?  What' the point?  Because their's a mouse-trap it can't be
: improved upon or enhanced?   You've got such an AOL mentality!

Now that is funny. I would get into the grammar, but being dyslexic 
myself,I'll let it pass... but to accuse me of "AOL mentality"... Dink.

: Now get your butt back over to the CGI group where you belong and keep
: the CGI newsgroup flaming attitude for your own neighborhood.  

Excuse me officer Craig, but I frequent 81 technical newsgroups, but 
before I add one more, I'll write for permission. Promise.

jmi

Does anyone understand sarcasm anymore? I proposed putting the notice in 
a place where the people who would ask the same FAQ's wouldn't look in 
the first place, for if they had, the answers would have been there already!

jmi
-----
PS: Officer Craig, if you want we can move this to e-mail where it 
belongs, or do you want to continue looking, well, foolish? - sorry to 
all 650 newsgroups, I have set followups to alt.flame, where they belong.


DBasics Software Company (chorton@dbasic.com) wrote:
: Oh, Mr. Ivler I forgot to share something with the rest of the
: readers.  The following is a response you posted when I started the
: Users Group.  You even wanted to have the Users Group listed in the
: CGI FAQ.   Now how can one do such an about turn?  Is it because we
: don't know how to keep our personal feelings aside?  Anyhow, here's
: your glowing endorsement:
: 
: =======================================================
: 
: >ivler@crl.com wrote:
: 
: >Tom, I would like to have this added to the FAQ. Before you post a 
: >question on the internet Pleasse try 
: >http://pacificnet.net/~dbasics/users_group, where a bunch of 
: >programers will help answer all your questions, and won't flame you 
: >for asking the same question that has been asked 100 times before.
: 
: That was written by you on December 4th, 1995!  So what's the bug up
: your butt?
: 
: 
: Craig David Horton
: DBasics Software Company
: http://www.dbasic.com
: 
: 
: Craig David Horton
: DBasics Software Company
: http://www.dbasic.com
: 

ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:
{ A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT DELETED }

Cool down guy!  What's the deal.  Craig is providing a service.  He
is"networking" people together.  Hell... he's already found me a
contract.

Why do you see fit to rip him a new asshole?  There's no point.

... Vern ...


--------------------------------------------------------------
Vern Six                   Voice: 512-218-6903   
FrontLine Software         BBS..: 512-218-6959
903 Lasso Drive            FAX..: 512-218-6978
Round Rock, TX  78681      www..: http://www.person.com
                           email: mailto://vsix@person.com

vsix@person.com (Vern Six) posted with deletions:

| ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:
| { A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT DELETED }
| 
| Cool down guy!  What's the deal.  Craig is providing a service.  He
| is"networking" people together.  Hell... he's already found me a
| contract.
| 
| Why do you see fit to rip him a new asshole?  There's no point.
| 
| ... Vern ...
| 
| 
| --------------------------------------------------------------
| Vern Six                   Voice: 512-218-6903   
| FrontLine Software         BBS..: 512-218-6959
| 903 Lasso Drive            FAX..: 512-218-6978
| Round Rock, TX  78681      www..: http://www.person.com
|                            email: mailto://vsix@person.com

Vern Six is his own Sys Admin, with Don Carroll, of COMLAND-DOM,
Voice: 512.671.4003.

Suggest complaining to Don Carroll, don@comland.com, about Six'
obscene post.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Colin James III, Principal Scientist  cjames@cec-services.com
CEC Services, 2080 Kipling St, Lakewood, CO  80215-1502   USA
Voice: 303.231.9437;  Facsimile: .231.9438;  Data:  .231.9434  
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In response to numerous e-mail messages... Yes, I should have known better. 
I'm sorry about the large crossposted response. It won't happen again... 

jmi

vsix@person.com (Vern Six) writes:

>ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:
>{ A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT DELETED }

>Cool down guy!  What's the deal.  Craig is providing a service.  He
>is"networking" people together.  Hell... he's already found me a
>contract.

>Why do you see fit to rip him a new asshole?  There's no point.
>... Vern ...

But Ivler is providing a service too:  A demonstration of what becomes
of one when they read 61 "tech" newsgroups:  An unhappy snappy camper!

Can't <sniff> we all just get along?

-JAS

ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:

A personal flame not worth continuing in the 651 newsgroups he
responded nor in private email. 

He has his opinion and we have ours.  It's the diversity of our
opinions that makes the world and Internet operable. 

 I do have a suggestion for Mr. Ivler.  Why doesn't he take this flame
to our Users Group where we have a BBS he can post his objections.  We
have taken a copy of these articles there for him to continue.  Where
better to post his personal objections then at the source of his
apparent anguish?

Please excuse our posting responses to Mr. Ivler in your newsgroup. I
am sure you can understand that when someone puts as much time and
energy into a service as we have and we have asked for nothing in
return ... there's a stake in one's work that warrants defense.  We
feel strongly about what we are providing to programmers on the
Internet and will stand behind our posts when flamed by those who wish
to air their laundry publicly.

Craig David Horton
DBasics Software Company
http://www.dbasic.com
Craig David Horton
DBasics Software Company
http://www.dbasic.com

cjames@melchizedek.cec-services.com (The Right Reverend Colin James
III) wrote:

>vsix@person.com (Vern Six) posted with deletions:

>| ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:
>| { A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT DELETED }
>| 
>| Cool down guy!  What's the deal.  Craig is providing a service.  He
>| is"networking" people together.  Hell... he's already found me a
>| contract.
>| 
>| Why do you see fit to rip him a new asshole?  There's no point.
>| 
>| ... Vern ...
>| 
>| 
>| --------------------------------------------------------------
>| Vern Six                   Voice: 512-218-6903   
>| FrontLine Software         BBS..: 512-218-6959
>| 903 Lasso Drive            FAX..: 512-218-6978
>| Round Rock, TX  78681      www..: http://www.person.com
>|                            email: mailto://vsix@person.com

>Vern Six is his own Sys Admin, with Don Carroll, of COMLAND-DOM,
>Voice: 512.671.4003.

>Suggest complaining to Don Carroll, don@comland.com, about Six'
>obscene post.


>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>Colin James III, Principal Scientist  cjames@cec-services.com
>CEC Services, 2080 Kipling St, Lakewood, CO  80215-1502   USA
>Voice: 303.231.9437;  Facsimile: .231.9438;  Data:  .231.9434  
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Aren't you just a bit over sensitive?  Jesus Christ guy!  I have
received forty plus emails from people saying you are the one who is
obscene with your over reaction to your "knee jerk" words.  

How nice that you hide behind a auto-responder that says you won't
even read email from the people you attack!  You are the truly obscene
one here!!!  GET A F***ING LIFE!!!!  AND GET OFF MY BACK.

... Vern ...

P.S.  Sorry to everyone who is reading this trash, but the jerk who
started this has an auto responder that sends a reply to email
informing everyone who sends him email that he won't read email!  He
sent an email to the sysadmin where I hook in but refuses to even read
email sent back to him.  

--------------------------------------------------------------
Vern Six                   Voice: 512-218-6903   
FrontLine Software         BBS..: 512-218-6959
903 Lasso Drive            FAX..: 512-218-6978
Round Rock, TX  78681      www..: http://www.person.com
                           email: mailto://vsix@person.com

In article <4d0i2f$g0b@tofu.alt.net>, Vern Six <vsix@person.com> wrote:
>P.S.  Sorry to everyone who is reading this trash, but the jerk who
>started this has an auto responder that sends a reply to email
>informing everyone who sends him email that he won't read email!

Which turns out to be a lie; I sent him email once, and he responded.  When I
wrote back pointing out an obvious error in his response, I got the
auto-responder.

-s
-- 
Peter Seebach - seebs@solon.com - Copyright 1995 Peter Seebach.
C/Unix proto-wizard -- C/Unix questions? Send mail for help.  No, really!
Using trn?  Weird new newsgroup problem?  I know the fix!  Email me!
The *other* C FAQ - ftp taniemarie.solon.com /pub/c/afq - Not A Flying Toy

In article <4cu8a8$23p@nova.dimensional.com>,
   cjames@melchizedek.cec-services.com (The Right Reverend Colin James III) 
wrote:
>vsix@person.com (Vern Six) posted with deletions:
>
>| ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:
>| { A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT DELETED }
>| 
>| Cool down guy!  What's the deal.  Craig is providing a service.  He
>| is"networking" people together.  Hell... he's already found me a
>| contract.
>| 
>| Why do you see fit to rip him a new asshole?  There's no point.
>| 
>| ... Vern ...
>
>Vern Six is his own Sys Admin, with Don Carroll, of COMLAND-DOM,
>Voice: 512.671.4003.
>
>Suggest complaining to Don Carroll, don@comland.com, about Six'
>obscene post.

Correction; the post contains "indecency" (swearing), but not obscenity.  And, 
as of yet, that's not illegal.  Of course, if the Communications Deceny Act 
passes later this year, and he posts again after it's passed, then you can try 
and claim that he posted to a group that he show "know that (at least one) the 
recipient of the communication is under 18 years of age".  [I hope the bill 
doesn't pass, myself.]

Sorry for the off-topic followup; followups directed to comp.org.eff.talk.

---------
All wars are civil wars.  Some just happen to remain within the
boundaries of the abstraction known as a "country".

John Ring
jcring@switch.com

In article <4d0p6i$6p6@solutions.solon.com> seebs@solutions.solon.com (Peter Seebach) writes:

> 
> In article <4d0i2f$g0b@tofu.alt.net>, Vern Six <vsix@person.com> wrote:
> >P.S.  Sorry to everyone who is reading this trash, but the jerk who
> >started this has an auto responder that sends a reply to email
> >informing everyone who sends him email that he won't read email!
> 
> Which turns out to be a lie...

Yep.  I also sent a (politely worded) piece of email to "The Right
Reverend James Colin III" at cjames@cec-services.com commenting that
he seemed to be overreacting a bit in calling for complaints to Vern
Six' sysadmin.  I got the auto responder reply saying that he doesn't
read email.  I then dropped the subject as being not worth pursuing.

It seems that not only did he read the email, he forwarded a copy to
the NASA inspector general and filed a complaint.  I had politely
phrased my email, so he couldn't find anything in the actual content
to complain about, so the complaint to the IG was for "personal use
of government computer equipment".  Perhaps he assumed that there could
be no legitimate reason for participating in the well-known hotbed
of pornography and political incorrectness known as usenet.  Luckily,
my participation in comp.lang.fortran is unquestionably for legitimate
business purposes; and sending email to people to try to keep the
newsgroup to its technical purpose is not too hard to defend either
(as long as I do it in a polite and professional manner that doesn't
reflect poorly on the reputation, etc..).  So if I get my hand slapped,
it probably won't be too hard.

So I have two documented cases of the Right Reverend etc III
attempting to harass people over the most trivial disagreements
with by filing official complaints against them, and documentation
that he lies in his auto responder saying that he doesn't read email.
Sounds like a nice person....NOT.  Back when I went to church as a kid,
they preached things like love, forgiveness, and other virtues.  Our
church wasn't into things like hate, lying, and harassment.  I suppose
that the Right Reverend etc is probably trying to save our children
from the sins of the internet or some such.  I don't think I'd trust
him alone with either of my children.

I know this post is just as off-subject as the original, and I
probably should have resisted making it.  The Right Reverend etc
did succeed in annoying me and I am unable to resist making it
known what kind of tactics his ilk tries to use.

By the way, this reply is composed at home, on my own time, on my
own machine, through my own account with a commercial internet
service provider, does not represent a NASA position, and did
not involve the mistreatment of any horses in the making of glues.
(The last part is an actual quote, as close as I recall the words,
from a standard NASA procurement clause that I saw in a computer
procurement contract many years ago).

-- 
Richard Maine
maine@qnet.com

In article <m2ensze08l.fsf_-_@maine1.home.org> maine@maine1.home.org (Richard Maine) writes:

[all snipped]

How is this even remotely a comp.lang.* issue?

Please remove comp.lang.forth from the followup list.

Thanks.

--

\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Mark A. Flacy     |     flacy@bnr.ca     |     ESN 445-8347
\                   |    (214) 685-8347    |     Department 2B51
\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Someday I may speak for BNR or Nortel.
\ Someday pigs may howl at a full moon.
\ Expect the latter to occur first.
\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------

On 17 Jan 1996, Mark Flacy wrote:

> Date: 17 JAN 1996 13:24:59 GMT 
> From: Mark Flacy <flacy@crchha99.bnr.ca>
> Newgroups
: comp.lang.basic.visual, comp.lang.c++, comp.lang.c,
>     comp.lang.pascal, comp.lang.tcl, comp.lang.ada, comp.lang.smalltalk,
>     comp.lang.perl, comp.lang.asm.x86, comp.lang.fortran,
>     comp.lang.postscript, comp.lang.java, comp.lang.clipper,
>     comp.lang.forth, comp.lang.cobol, comp.lang.rexx, comp.lang.eiffel,
>     comp.lang.python, comp.lang.lisp, comp.lang.scheme
> Subject: Re: Complain to don@comland.com (was ANNOUNCE: Link Files etc) 
> 
> In article <m2ensze08l.fsf_-_@maine1.home.org> maine@maine1.home.org (Richard Maine) writes:
> 
> [all snipped]
> 
> How is this even remotely a comp.lang.* issue?
> 
> Please remove comp.lang.forth from the followup list.
> 
> Thanks.

For that matter, remove comp.lang.* from the followups. I'm not 
interested and I'm sure most other readers aren't either. How about 
stopping this now please?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Wesolowski (mewesolo@freenet.calgary.ab.ca)

Take this discussion somwhere else!

seebs@solutions.solon.com (Peter Seebach) wrote:

: In article <4d0i2f$g0b@tofu.alt.net>, Vern Six <vsix@person.com> wrote:
: >P.S.  Sorry to everyone who is reading this trash, but the jerk who
: >started this has an auto responder that sends a reply to email
: >informing everyone who sends him email that he won't read email!
: 
: Which turns out to be a lie; I sent him email once, and he responded.  When I
: wrote back pointing out an obvious error in his response, I got the
: auto-responder.
: 
: -s
: -- 
: Peter Seebach - seebs@solon.com - Copyright 1995 Peter Seebach.
: C/Unix proto-wizard -- C/Unix questions? Send mail for help.  No, really!
: Using trn?  Weird new newsgroup problem?  I know the fix!  Email me!
: The *other* C FAQ - ftp taniemarie.solon.com /pub/c/afq - Not A Flying Toy


Have fun,
Alex

The following message was originally posted in the Clipper forum on
CIS.  It was moved from public view and is posted here with permission
of the author.

Subj:  FiveWin and Law issues		Section: 3rd Party Support
  To:  ALL				Thursday, January 18, 1996 9:26:07 AM
From:  Francisco Morero, 103523,3465	#554967

HOW FIVEWIN 1.0 WAS DONE

Complying with the wishes of many people that are interested in this
matter, and considering this subject an important one (even though it's
not a technical subject), I'm coming out of my silence (it's about
time) and say publicly what I and some other people know.

	* I know Antonio Linares since I was around 8 or 9 years old. We
went together to grammar school, high school and the 1st year of
college. We have worked together in several projects for at least 5
years, and both have consulted each other in a multitude of occasions.

	* Mr. Linares, in one occasion,  called me to my house ( he used
to called almost daily) to ask me to help him with a problem he
couldn't resolve. Back then, Mr. Linares was a beta-tester of Clip4Win
and was working on the same thing, porting Clipper to Windows. When I
got to his house, he told me "I've been like crazy for several days
trying to find out how John Skelton did it" ( porting Clipper to
Windows ). Then he showed me two files loaded on his word-processor
(Qedit). This two files were the original from Clipper and the 
same module from Clip4Win, both DISASSEMBLED. Then he proceeded to 
show me the differences between both modules and said "Look how Skelton

has touched the module, just like a surgeon: a couple of things here
and there" ( those who knows Antonio Linares will recognized one of his
favorite phrases whenever he finds something/somebody very good: "like
a surgeon" ).

	* After showing me the disassembled code, he asked me to help him

figure out how Clip4Win worked internally to reproduce it into his new
project ( later known as Fivewin 1.0 ). This I did not agree with so I
didn't help.

	* A few weeks later, we bumped into each other in a computer
store of a common friend. After chatting for about 2 hours, he confess
to me that he could figure out most of the operatoria of Clip4Win but
there was a couple of modules 
that resisted him.

	* After this, Antonio Linares and I have serious discrepancies
and we stopped to treat each other with the same tone. From persons
very close to me, and _VERY_ close to Antonio Linares, I know for a
fact how this issue about the resisting modules was resolved by Mr.
Linares, but respecting this persons wishes, I can only mention here
what Mr. Linares told me.

	* About all the things I have mentioned here I ( and several
other people that I can't mentioned here ) have FACTUAL PROOFS for a
long time. Here in this public forum I put myself, my testimony and all
the proofs I have to the entire disposition of Mr. Skelton whenever he
wants or need them so this issue can be clarify once and for all.

	* I'M READY TO TESTIFY EVERYTHING I'VE SAID HERE IN FRONT OF 
ANY JUDGE OR COURT, PUT MYSELF THROUGH A LIAR DETECTOR IF NECESSARY.

	* This are not calumnies, but a FORMAL DECLARATION OF FACTS. 
For now, I have nothing more to say, and unless the rest of the users
of this media ask me to do so. Of course, I reserve the right to keep
talking about this subject ( or any other I consider of public interest
to all CA-Clipper users and third-party tools ).

NOTE: All I've said here written in my poor English, is also written in
another document in perfect castillian Spanish and it's at the
disposition of any who wishes to have it.

Francisco Morero.

>        * About all the things I have mentioned here I ( and several
>other people that I can't mentioned here ) have FACTUAL PROOFS for a
>long time. Here in this public forum I put myself, my testimony and all
>the proofs I have to the entire disposition of Mr. Skelton whenever he
>wants or need them so this issue can be clarify once and for all.

It's not proof unless you have evidence. Like pictures or corroborating 
witnesses who also saw the disassembly at the same time you did.

Do you?

Until then, this story is hearsay, and could be completely fabricated.

You have offered no evidence, therefore, no proof.

I'm not disputing your story, just your admonition that this consitutes some 
kind of proof, which it does not.

-- 
              Phil Barnett  philb@iag.net
                       WWW  http://www.iag.net/~philb/
                  FTP Site  ftp://ftp.iag.net/pub/clipper
                      FIDO  1:363/299

hughl@ix.netcom.com(Hugh A. Lokey ) wrote:

>The following message was originally posted in the Clipper forum on
>CIS.  It was moved from public view and is posted here with permission
>of the author.

>Subj:  FiveWin and Law issues		Section: 3rd Party Support
>  To:  ALL				Thursday, January 18, 1996 9:26:07 AM
>From:  Francisco Morero, 103523,3465	#554967

>HOW FIVEWIN 1.0 WAS DONE

<BIG SNIP>

>Francisco Morero.

Mr Lokey, shame on you!  How thoughtless! You forgot to post Mr.
Linares response to this!

Ok, Ok, I'll do it!

     555012 S14/3rd Party Support   [CLIPPER]
     18-Jan-96  12:42
 Sb: FiveWin and Law issues  
 Fm: Antonio Linares 100114,1776
 To: Francisco Morero 103523,3465


I don't know what hidden interests you represent.

All I say is that all that you describe is totally FALSE, and that I
would be willing to discuss this in a court and demonstrate the truth.
Right now I am giving a copy of your email to my lawyer to start
taking the necessary legal actions against you for your lies and
damages on my public image.

Up to now I did not want to publically answer you as this is a
technical forum, but your previous message has gone too far.

Antonio Linares
[FiveTech]

+++END QUOTE+++

Let me pint out that Mr. Morero claims to have seen Mr. Linares in
possesion of decompiled code from Clip4win and Clipper lib, and that
they were the SAME module!  No where does he ever say that he saw Mr.
Linares disassemble it, but more importantly he never says that he saw
Mr. Linares  USE that code.  Of course not, he didn't, and if you will
take the time to disassemble the C4W and FiveWin you will find that
this code does not exixt in the FiveWin product.

Now, lets talk about that code that Mr. Morero claims to have seen....


Hello!  Mr. Skelton!  Would you care to come to the party and tell us
the name and purpose of that module?  

Would you care to tell us how you surmise that even if Mr. Linares did
take that code, that _YOU_ have any claim against him or anybody else
for it?

Lets assume, JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT that Antonio did lift that
module (which he denies)....

I would just love be sitting in the courtroom, when you try to explain
to a judge and jury how you are claiming that Antonio Linares stole
the code which you hacked out of Clipper.lib and that _YOU_ are
entitled to claim that your copyright has been violated, when the code
in question never belonged to you in the first place, but
belonged(belongs) to Computer Associates?

This I gotta  see!

Mr. Skelton to the Judge:

"Judge, you don't understand.  I stole it fair and square it's mine,
and Antonio can't have it!"

See 'ya on the net!

Oh, yeah why did you post this stuff to all those other newsgroups?
Ada????



:=JHS
FiveWin - Clipper for Windows
**************************************************************************
          John H. Stolte, Sr. - Omicron Software Publishing Corp.
     **** Publisher of FiveWin - FiveDB and FiveDLL for Clipper! ****
14 High Street  P.O. Box 87, Cartersville Virginia 23027 USA
[Voice] (804) 375-9703 - [Fax] (804) 375-9733 - [BBS] (804) 375-9639
Compuserve: 71334,3020           Internet: jstolte@richmond.infi.net
WWW: http://www.wji.com/fivewin  FTP: ftp.wji.com (change dir to /Omicron)
**************************************************************************

In <4e1g53$4sb@news.iag.net> philb@iag.net (Phil Barnett) writes: 

>
>It's not proof unless you have evidence. Like pictures or
corroborating witnesses who also saw the disassembly at the same time
you did.
>
>Do you?
>
>Until then, this story is hearsay, and could be completely fabricated.
>
>You have offered no evidence, therefore, no proof.
>
>I'm not disputing your story, just your admonition that this
consitutes some kind of proof, which it does not.
>
In addition to Francisco's statement there is additional factual
proof that is included in the legal documents slowly making there
way through the Spanish legal system.  

Disassembly is not the key issue - the fact that the author of FiveWin
included actual code from Clip-4-Win is.

Hugh

Once again the snake crawls out from under his rock.
No matter how you try to twist things to cover your
butt the fact remains that FiveWin contains code
ripped off from Clip-4-Win.  One day you will have
your chance to try and convice a judge/jury that
you were ignorant of this all the time you were
selling your crap to the unsuspecting public.

hughl@ix.netcom.com(Hugh A. Lokey ) wrote:

>Once again the snake crawls out from under his rock.
>No matter how you try to twist things to cover your
>butt the fact remains that FiveWin contains code
>ripped off from Clip-4-Win.  One day you will have
>your chance to try and convice a judge/jury that
>you were ignorant of this all the time you were
>selling your crap to the unsuspecting public.


I would love for that day in court to come.

Hugh, you seem like a smart fellow, can't you see that there is no
case here?  

If there is copyrighted C4W code in FiveWin, PLEASE SHOW IT TO US!



:=JHS
FiveWin - Clipper for Windows
**************************************************************************
          John H. Stolte, Sr. - Omicron Software Publishing Corp.
     **** Publisher of FiveWin - FiveDB and FiveDLL for Clipper! ****
14 High Street  P.O. Box 87, Cartersville Virginia 23027 USA
[Voice] (804) 375-9703 - [Fax] (804) 375-9733 - [BBS] (804) 375-9639
Compuserve: 71334,3020           Internet: jstolte@richmond.infi.net
WWW: http://www.wji.com/fivewin  FTP: ftp.wji.com (change dir to /Omicron)
**************************************************************************

In article <4e2foo$77a@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, hughl@ix.netcom.com(Hugh A.
Lokey ) wrote:

> Once again the snake crawls out from under his rock.
> No matter how you try to twist things to cover your
> butt the fact remains that FiveWin contains code
> ripped off from Clip-4-Win.  One day you will have
> your chance to try and convice a judge/jury that
> you were ignorant of this all the time you were
> selling your crap to the unsuspecting public.

Hey, folks!

I'm sure this is all fascinating to you, and perhaps of monumental importance to some, but what does this thread have to do with the other *EIGHTEEN* newsgroups that you are posting this private little war into?

> comp.lang.basic.visual, comp.lang.c++, comp.lang.c, comp.lang.pascal,
> comp.lang.tcl, comp.lang.ada, comp.lang.smalltalk, comp.lang.perl,
> comp.lang.asm.x86, comp.lang.fortran, comp.lang.postscript,
> comp.lang.java, comp.lang.clipper, comp.lang.forth, comp.lang.cobol,
> comp.lang.eiffel, comp.lang.python, comp.lang.lisp, comp.lang.scheme

Doesn't this seem at least a LITTLE EXCESSIVE? Please watch your newsgroup lines. Please make sure comp.lang.forth (at the very least) is not there. Thanks.

db
-- 
 David Boulton                    | knowledge is just a polite
 boulton@netcom.com               | term for dead, 
 Peregrine Associates             | but not buried imagination.
 POB 1385 Redwood City, CA 94064  |           -- e.e. cummings

In <4e34c1$6fh@nw002.infi.net> jstolte@richmond.infi.net (John H.
Stolte, Sr.) writes: 

>I would love for that day in court to come.
>
Be careful what you wish for...

>Hugh, you seem like a smart fellow, can't you see that there is no
>case here?  
>
A lot of folks smarter than you don't agree...

>If there is copyrighted C4W code in FiveWin, PLEASE SHOW IT TO US!
>
You have seen parts of it a long time ago - you will see more I am
sure...

hughl@ix.netcom.com(Hugh A. Lokey ) wrote:

>In <4e1g53$4sb@news.iag.net> philb@iag.net (Phil Barnett) writes: 

>>
>>It's not proof unless you have evidence. Like pictures or
>corroborating witnesses who also saw the disassembly at the same time
>you did.
>>
>>Do you?
>>
>>Until then, this story is hearsay, and could be completely fabricated.
>>
>>You have offered no evidence, therefore, no proof.
>>
>>I'm not disputing your story, just your admonition that this
>consitutes some kind of proof, which it does not.
>>
>In addition to Francisco's statement there is additional factual
>proof that is included in the legal documents slowly making there
>way through the Spanish legal system.  

>Disassembly is not the key issue - the fact that the author of FiveWin
>included actual code from Clip-4-Win is.

>Hugh

What code?  Where? What modules?  I have both products, Clip-4-win and
FiveWin tell me the modules that contain the same code that belongs to
Skelton and I'll go look!

I'll bet you won't tell us!



:=JHS
FiveWin - Clipper for Windows
**************************************************************************
          John H. Stolte, Sr. - Omicron Software Publishing Corp.
     **** Publisher of FiveWin - FiveDB and FiveDLL for Clipper! ****
14 High Street  P.O. Box 87, Cartersville Virginia 23027 USA
[Voice] (804) 375-9703 - [Fax] (804) 375-9733 - [BBS] (804) 375-9639
Compuserve: 71334,3020           Internet: jstolte@richmond.infi.net
WWW: http://www.wji.com/fivewin  FTP: ftp.wji.com (change dir to /Omicron)
**************************************************************************

In <4e44j7$m7h@nw002.infi.net> jstolte@richmond.infi.net (John H.
Stolte, Sr.) writes: 

>>Hugh
>
>What code?  Where? What modules?  I have both products, Clip-4-win and
>FiveWin tell me the modules that contain the same code that belongs to
>Skelton and I'll go look!
>
I have seen a demostration of your programming skills and I don't think
you would even know what you were looking at.

>I'll bet you won't tell us!

You will find out when the time comes and it will cost you dearly.

Greetings All-

This seems like a hell of a time to come out of retirement but this is
something I've wanted to say for a while.

OK folks, for those of you who may not know me I used to be CA's
representative on CIS's Clipper Forum.  I've evaled both products and
they are both execelent at what they do.

I just want to let you all know that there were at least 6 occasions
where clients approched me stating that they were either not
purchasing Clipper or they were leaving Clipper because of the public
bickering of 3rd party developers.  I'm sure you all realize if
someone turns away from Clipper they are turning away from your
product.  You guys have to remember that not only Joe Clipperhead has
access to these groups.

Just my $.02 worth

--Sean:OutaHere()

Folks, *please* restrict this discussion to an appropriate newsgroup.
It really doesn't need to be cross-posted to 19 comp.lang.* groups.
I've redirected followups to comp.lang.clipper.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith)  kst@thomsoft.com (kst@alsys.com still works)
TeleSoft^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Alsys^H^H^H^H^H Thomson Software Products
10251 Vista Sorrento Parkway, Suite 300, San Diego, CA, USA, 92121-2718
Et tu, Barada Nikto?

Greetings all -

I know this is a hell of a time to come out of retirement but I want
all involved parties to know about this.

As some of you know I used to be employed at CA as their
representative on CIS.  While I was working at CA there were 3
seperate occasions where clients would see these debates and decide to
either move away from Clipper or not purchase it at all.
Considerating that only a small percentage of Clipper's user base
ever calls tech support, there were probably others who left, or
decided not to purchase Clipper your products because  of your
bickering in this public forua. 

 I know John S. claims his sales go up when this happens, but if it
erodes Clippers user base (which is eroding enough on its own) it
erodes your sales.  It also makes all of us look unprofessional
because we take no action to stop it.

--Sean:OutAHere()

John H. Stolte, Sr. wrote:
> 
> hughl@ix.netcom.com(Hugh A. Lokey ) wrote:
> 
> >The following message was originally posted in the Clipper forum on
> >CIS.  It was moved from public view and is posted here with permission
> >of the author.
> 
> >Subj:  FiveWin and Law issues          Section: 3rd Party Support
> >  To:  ALL                             Thursday, January 18, 1996 9:26:07 AM
> >From:  Francisco Morero, 103523,3465   #554967
> 
> >HOW FIVEWIN 1.0 WAS DONE
> 
> <BIG SNIP>
> 
> >Francisco Morero.
> 
> Mr Lokey, shame on you!  How thoughtless! You forgot to post Mr.
> Linares response to this!
> 
> Ok, Ok, I'll do it!
> 
>      555012 S14/3rd Party Support   [CLIPPER]
>      18-Jan-96  12:42
>  Sb: FiveWin and Law issues
>  Fm: Antonio Linares 100114,1776
>  To: Francisco Morero 103523,3465
> 
> I don't know what hidden interests you represent.
> 
> All I say is that all that you describe is totally FALSE, and that I
> would be willing to discuss this in a court and demonstrate the truth.
> Right now I am giving a copy of your email to my lawyer to start
> taking the necessary legal actions against you for your lies and
> damages on my public image.
> 
> Up to now I did not want to publically answer you as this is a
> technical forum, but your previous message has gone too far.
> 
> Antonio Linares
> [FiveTech]
> 
> +++END QUOTE+++
> 
> Let me pint out that Mr. Morero claims to have seen Mr. Linares in
> possesion of decompiled code from Clip4win and Clipper lib, and that
> they were the SAME module!  No where does he ever say that he saw Mr.
> Linares disassemble it, but more importantly he never says that he saw
> Mr. Linares  USE that code.  Of course not, he didn't, and if you will
> take the time to disassemble the C4W and FiveWin you will find that
> this code does not exixt in the FiveWin product.
> 
> Now, lets talk about that code that Mr. Morero claims to have seen....
> 
> Hello!  Mr. Skelton!  Would you care to come to the party and tell us
> the name and purpose of that module?
> 
> Would you care to tell us how you surmise that even if Mr. Linares did
> take that code, that _YOU_ have any claim against him or anybody else
> for it?
> 
> Lets assume, JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT that Antonio did lift that
> module (which he denies)....
> 
> I would just love be sitting in the courtroom, when you try to explain
> to a judge and jury how you are claiming that Antonio Linares stole
> the code which you hacked out of Clipper.lib and that _YOU_ are
> entitled to claim that your copyright has been violated, when the code
> in question never belonged to you in the first place, but
> belonged(belongs) to Computer Associates?
> 
> This I gotta  see!
> 
> Mr. Skelton to the Judge:
> 
> "Judge, you don't understand.  I stole it fair and square it's mine,
> and Antonio can't have it!"
> 
> See 'ya on the net!
> 
> Oh, yeah why did you post this stuff to all those other newsgroups?
> Ada????
> 
> :=JHS
> FiveWin - Clipper for Windows
> **************************************************************************
>           John H. Stolte, Sr. - Omicron Software Publishing Corp.
>      **** Publisher of FiveWin - FiveDB and FiveDLL for Clipper! ****
> 14 High Street  P.O. Box 87, Cartersville Virginia 23027 USA
> [Voice] (804) 375-9703 - [Fax] (804) 375-9733 - [BBS] (804) 375-9639
> Compuserve: 71334,3020           Internet: jstolte@richmond.infi.net
> WWW: http://www.wji.com/fivewin  FTP: ftp.wji.com (change dir to /Omicron)
> **************************************************************************	EXCUSE ME BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION SHOULD 
BE DONE BY E-MAIL PERSON TO PERSON. THE GROUPE AT LEAST I THINK THE GROUP IS 
TIRED OF THE WAR THAT THIS STORY HAS BECOME. 

	IF THE REST OF THE GROUP IS IN FAVOR OF MY THOUGHTS
	PLEASE DROP A LINE (E MAIL) TO THE ABOVE   
HAVE A NICE DAY
-- 
Earl Yeo Jr.                      
tel:1-418-871-6106                fax:1-418-871-6760                
e-mail yeojr@accent.net  (<:)

cjames@melchizedek.cec-services.com (The Right Reverend Colin James
III) wrote:

>vsix@person.com (Vern Six) posted with deletions:

>| ivler@crl.com (J.M. Ivler) wrote:
>| { A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT DELETED }
>| 
>| Cool down guy!  What's the deal.  Craig is providing a service.  He
>| is"networking" people together.  Hell... he's already found me a
>| contract.
>| 
>| Why do you see fit to rip him a new asshole?  There's no point.
>| 
>| ... Vern ...
>| 
>| 
>| --------------------------------------------------------------
>| Vern Six                   Voice: 512-218-6903   
>| FrontLine Software         BBS..: 512-218-6959
>| 903 Lasso Drive            FAX..: 512-218-6978
>| Round Rock, TX  78681      www..: http://www.person.com
>|                            email: mailto://vsix@person.com

>Vern Six is his own Sys Admin, with Don Carroll, of COMLAND-DOM,
>Voice: 512.671.4003.

>Suggest complaining to Don Carroll, don@comland.com, about Six'
>obscene post.


>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>Colin James III, Principal Scientist  cjames@cec-services.com
>CEC Services, 2080 Kipling St, Lakewood, CO  80215-1502   USA
>Voice: 303.231.9437;  Facsimile: .231.9438;  Data:  .231.9434  
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Do we really have to be exposed to this shit?  I thought this was a
serious list where matters of substace are dealt with.  I must be
wrong...

NMc Systems cc
Custom Database Development in CA_Clipper and CA Visual Objects
PO Box 1199
FLORIDA HILLS
1716
Republic of South Africa
Tel : (11) 477-4034
Fax : (11) 477-4034
nmcsystems@pixie.co.za

In article <4f7hs8$bas@newnews.iafrica.com>, nmcsystm@iafrica.com (Norman McFarlane) wrote:
>cjames@melchizedek.cec-services.com (The Right Reverend Colin James
>III) wrote:
>
[Like allways nonsense]

>Do we really have to be exposed to this shit?  I thought this was a
>serious list where matters of substace are dealt with.  I must be
>wrong...

Don't get upset. The referend is known around the whole network for his 
postings (and faxes and smail-mail).

If he sees your name in a group that is not related to your job, like 
comp.graphics, he will mail your boss.  ( RRCJ 3 : the e-mail adress of my 
boss is rvdv@ktibv.nl).

The Graphical Gnome (rdb@ktibv.nl)