🚀 go-pugleaf

Denninger wrote the bottom part of this article below. He can
be a stubborn obstinate prick, but in 15 years I've never known
him to lie.

Dillon OTOH, I have caught in out and out lies. I wouldnt trust him
as far as I can throw the hapless geek.


In article <6h8tm7$i4g$2@news.ncal.verio.com>,
Roger Marquis  <not-for-mail@roble.com> wrote:
<>[reposted from http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9804]
<>[non-members can subscribe to the napir list, naipr@arin.net]
<>
<>On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 11:39:44AM -0700, Michael Dillon wrote:
<>> On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Karl Denninger wrote:
<>>
<>> > > Shall we inform the ARIN membership of your actions?
<>> 
<>> > I'll save you the trouble and CC this to the member's list.
<>>         
<>> And what about all the other accusations of criminal activity that you've
<>> been making over the past few days scattered over several mailing lists
<>> and CC'd to the Department of Justice, Ira Magaziner, and others? Will you
<>> be making copies of those messages available to the ARIN membership as 
<>> well?
<>>                                         
<>> If so, please don't CC the flood of messages to the members list. It would
<>> be more convenient for most of them if you would make it available as a
<>> text file on your web server.
<>> 
<>> --
<>> Michael Dillon                   -               Internet & ISP Consulting
<>> http://www.memra.com             -               E-mail: michael@memra.com
<>
<>My "arin" mail file is subpoenable if anyone feels the need.  Its not going
<>anywhere; quite the opposite.
<>
<>I believe there is in fact reason for a formal federal investigation at this
<>stage.  Among other things, I believe that ARIN is acting as a monopoly and
<>abusing its power to charge fees, in that it appears to charge far beyond
<>the clearly documentable costs needed to make an allocation for smaller ISPs,
<>does not use objective and externally verified criteria to make decisions,
<>and to date has refused to operate in a transparent manner where the  
<>allocation decisions and criteria being used are open to public review
<>and observation.
<>
<>Further, I believe that ARIN, in collusion with Jon Postel, has conspired
<>to artificially constrain the supply of IPv4 addresses in order to create
<>an artificial shortage, enabling them to "justify" policies and pricing
<>which would never be sustainable in a public market or in an actual, open,
<>public trustee or stewardship role.  
<>
<>That's for starters, but it ought to be far more than enough.  If my belief
<>that these actions have and are taking place are proven correct, then I
<>further believe that such conduct is contrary to the laws of the United
<>States, and may constitute price-fixing, unlawful restraint of trade, and
<>racketeering.  However, since I am not a prosecutor or judge, I am not
<>qualified to do anything other than suggest that I believe these actions
<>are in fact improper and ask the government to step in and investigate
<>whether or not in fact there has been a violation of law.
<>
<>It is my right as a citizen of the United States to bring believed abuses
<>to the attention of the judicial branch of the United States Government.
<>
<>It is, more importantly, my DUTY to do this as a member of a committee
<>charged with the oversight of a public resource being operated under the
<>guidelines of Stewardship of a Public Trust, authorized by the US Federal
<>Government.
<>
<>I believe that I have a fiduciary duty to every member, jointly and
<>severably, to do what I am doing in this capacity, and to defend that public
<>trust and the members against improperly set fees, discriminatory conduct,
<>and other violations of the public interest if I come to believe that such 
<>are taking place.
<>
<>I have asked for ARIN to work with me on fixing these things as a member 
<>of the Advisory Council.
<>                                          
<>For doing this, Michael Dillon has called for my censure and removal from
<>the Advisory Council.
<>
<>Draw your own conclusions folks.
<>
<>--
<>--
<>Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
<>http://www.mcs.net/          | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV
<>                             | NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%!
<>Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
<>Fax:   [+1 312 803-4929]     | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost


-- 
Richard Sexton  280se@mbz.org  Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada
1970 280SE, 1972 280SE         http://www.mbz.org  

In article <6h91tb$dl9$1@ns1.vrx.net>,
Richard J. Sexton <richard@ns1.vrx.net> wrote:
>Denninger wrote the bottom part of this article below. He can
>be a stubborn obstinate prick, but in 15 years I've never known
>him to lie.
>
>Dillon OTOH, I have caught in out and out lies. I wouldnt trust him
>as far as I can throw the hapless geek.
>

I'd never heard of Dillon before, but you might want to use
dejanews to check out Denninger in news.admin.net-abuse.email,
principally in the "ATTN: KARL DENNINGER" threads, just over
a month ago.

You should reach your own conclusion, but to me,
it's obvious that he was fabricating details,
in order to remain a stubborn obstinate prick,
though not details of any great importance.
(except to the people I believe he was lying *about*)


	Bob O`Bob
-- 
"What do you want to reinstall today?"

My cat has a vocabulary of at least several hundred distinct vocalizations.
               And every single one begins with "me".

In article <6h95m6$dcq$1@shell3.ba.best.com>,
Bob O`Brien <obob@best.com> wrote:
>In article <6h91tb$dl9$1@ns1.vrx.net>,
>Richard J. Sexton <richard@ns1.vrx.net> wrote:
>>Denninger wrote the bottom part of this article below. He can
>>be a stubborn obstinate prick, but in 15 years I've never known
>>him to lie.
>>
>>Dillon OTOH, I have caught in out and out lies. I wouldnt trust him
>>as far as I can throw the hapless geek.
>>
>
>I'd never heard of Dillon before, but you might want to use
>dejanews to check out Denninger in news.admin.net-abuse.email,
>principally in the "ATTN: KARL DENNINGER" threads, just over
>a month ago.
>
>You should reach your own conclusion, but to me,
>it's obvious that he was fabricating details,
>in order to remain a stubborn obstinate prick,
>though not details of any great importance.
>(except to the people I believe he was lying *about*)

Nothing Karl would say would really surprise me, as I mentioend
I've known him a very long time. If you can prove he was
lying I'll listen.

Dillon a a major arse, and will filabusetr just about anywhere.
Check AV for +newdom +michael +dillon; he was the most volumous
poster to those efforts and definitly falls under the category
of "talkers" not "doers".

-- 
Richard Sexton  280se@mbz.org  Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada
1970 280SE, 1972 280SE         http://www.mbz.org  

In ba.internet Richard J. Sexton <richard@ns1.vrx.net> wrote:
> Dillon a a major arse, and will filabusetr just about anywhere.
> Check AV for +newdom +michael +dillon; he was the most volumous
> poster to those efforts and definitly falls under the category
> of "talkers" not "doers".

....shhhh....listen...what's that sound I hear? Could it be...it is!  it's
the sound of an axe grinding!

"Dillon" (also known colloquially as "Matt") is - if anything - a talker
AND a doer. I'm glad he's both.

Your parti pris is only thinly disguised by the ad hominem. For want of a
cogent argument...


-- 
Paul Theodoropoulos     paul at anastrophe dot com      Inc., Anastrophe
Syntactically Subversive Services             No Guru  No Method  No Fez

In article <6hb2cn$aa0$1@news.ncal.verio.com>, paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com 
<paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com> wrote:
>In ba.internet Richard J. Sexton <richard@ns1.vrx.net> wrote:
>> Dillon a a major arse, and will filabusetr just about anywhere.
>> Check AV for +newdom +michael +dillon; he was the most volumous
>> poster to those efforts and definitly falls under the category
>> of "talkers" not "doers".
>
>....shhhh....listen...what's that sound I hear? Could it be...it is!  it's
>the sound of an axe grinding!
>
>"Dillon" (also known colloquially as "Matt") is - if anything - a talker
>AND a doer. I'm glad he's both.

No.  Don't get those two Dillons confused.  This thread has not been 
about Matt Dillon, who works at Best Internet.  Notice the part you even 
quoted: "+michael +dillon".  I don't know Michael Dillon, but he's no 
Matt.
-- 
Robert  <newsreply@webbhead.vip.best.com>

In article <6hb2cn$aa0$1@news.ncal.verio.com>,
 <paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com> wrote:
>"Dillon" (also known colloquially as "Matt") is - if anything - a talker
>AND a doer. I'm glad he's both.

Different Dillon..

For the benefit of c.p.t.*: Matt Dillon is a frequent poster to ba.internet.
For the benefit of ba.internet: Michael Dillon is some other guy who posts
to lists such as NANOG, newdom, and lots others, I'm sure. He's the one
being discussed in this thread.

Two completely different people. :)

In ba.internet David Kirchner <dpk@nowhere.notreal.com> wrote:
> In article <6hb2cn$aa0$1@news.ncal.verio.com>,
>  <paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com> wrote:
>>"Dillon" (also known colloquially as "Matt") is - if anything - a talker
>>AND a doer. I'm glad he's both.

> Different Dillon..

> For the benefit of c.p.t.*: Matt Dillon is a frequent poster to ba.internet.
> For the benefit of ba.internet: Michael Dillon is some other guy who posts
> to lists such as NANOG, newdom, and lots others, I'm sure. He's the one
> being discussed in this thread.

> Two completely different people. :)

Allow me to remove my finger from my nose and my foot from my mouth.

another day, another misplaced bon mot. oh well. my apologies to the ad
hominist.

;^)

-- 
Paul Theodoropoulos     paul at anastrophe dot com      Inc., Anastrophe
Syntactically Subversive Services             No Guru  No Method  No Fez

In ba.internet Robert Webb <newsreply@webbhead.vip.best.com> wrote:
> In article <6hb2cn$aa0$1@news.ncal.verio.com>, paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com 
> <paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com> wrote:
>>In ba.internet Richard J. Sexton <richard@ns1.vrx.net> wrote:
>>> Dillon a a major arse, and will filabusetr just about anywhere.
>>> Check AV for +newdom +michael +dillon; he was the most volumous
>>> poster to those efforts and definitly falls under the category
>>> of "talkers" not "doers".
>>
>>....shhhh....listen...what's that sound I hear? Could it be...it is!  it's
>>the sound of an axe grinding!
>>
>>"Dillon" (also known colloquially as "Matt") is - if anything - a talker
>>AND a doer. I'm glad he's both.

> No.  Don't get those two Dillons confused.  This thread has not been 
> about Matt Dillon, who works at Best Internet.  Notice the part you even 
> quoted: "+michael +dillon".  I don't know Michael Dillon, but he's no 
> Matt.

indeed. and I'll never cut it as a proofreader/accuracy checker.

i'll slink back under my rock...

-- 
Paul Theodoropoulos     paul at anastrophe dot com      Inc., Anastrophe
Syntactically Subversive Services             No Guru  No Method  No Fez

In article <6hb6mr$4bh$1@nowhere.notreal.com>,
David Kirchner <dpk@nowhere.notreal.com> wrote:
>In article <6hb2cn$aa0$1@news.ncal.verio.com>,
> <paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com> wrote:
>>"Dillon" (also known colloquially as "Matt") is - if anything - a talker
>>AND a doer. I'm glad he's both.
>
>Different Dillon..
>
>For the benefit of c.p.t.*: Matt Dillon is a frequent poster to ba.internet.
>For the benefit of ba.internet: Michael Dillon is some other guy who posts
>to lists such as NANOG, newdom, and lots others, I'm sure. He's the one
>being discussed in this thread.
>
>Two completely different people. :)
>

I have the utmost respect for Matt Dillon and have since the
mid 80's when he wrote a C-Shell for the Amiga. Bright kid.

-- 
Richard Sexton  280se@mbz.org  Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada
1970 280SE, 1972 280SE         http://www.mbz.org  

paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com writes:
>In ba.internet Richard J. Sexton <richard@ns1.vrx.net> wrote:
>> Dillon a a major arse, and will filabusetr just about anywhere.
>> Check AV for +newdom +michael +dillon; he was the most volumous
>> poster to those efforts and definitly falls under the category
>> of "talkers" not "doers".
>
>....shhhh....listen...what's that sound I hear? Could it be...it is!  it's
>the sound of an axe grinding!
>
>"Dillon" (also known colloquially as "Matt") is - if anything - a talker
>AND a doer. I'm glad he's both.
>
>Your parti pris is only thinly disguised by the ad hominem. For want of a
>cogent argument...
>

Wait a minute here.  Paul, you're saying Matt Dillon, but Mr. Sexton's
search spec said +michael.

I've confused a man named Michael Dillon with Matt Dillon of Best
Internet before.  Could that be happening here?

  -Greg
-- 
:::::::::::::::::::  Greg Andrews  gerg@netcom.com  :::::::::::::::::::
Fortune Cookie:  It has just been discovered that research
                 causes cancer in rats.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

:In article <gergErn56M.M7y@netcom.com>, Greg Andrews <gerg@netcom.com> wrote:
:>paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com writes:
:..

    Heh.  I wasn't confused, I knew who he was talking about but I'll
    throw another wrench into the works as well:  I have a brother named
    Michael Dillon, but he's NOT the Michael Dillon you guys are talking
    about.  In fact, I don't even think he's ever posted to the usenet.

    I have no relation to the Michael Dillon in this discussion.  Dillon
    is a relatively common last name.  I think a number of 1800-1920 era
    immigrants used it, especially from India (dhillion, dyllon, etc...)
    which accounts for my last name and about 1/4 of my heritage.

    In anycase, to be clear:  I (Matthew Dillon) am a kind of 
    jack-of-all-trades programmer & electrical engineer / digital designer,
    one of the founders of BEST Internet, employee of same, and responsible
    for most of the server infrastructure design.  Being a berkeleyite I 
    kinda grew up with the electronics/programming bit starting around age 5.
    It's actually kinda annoying because there are more things I want to do
    then there are hours in the day to work on them.  I don't frequent the
    networking lists all that much myself, but Karl Mueller, another 'original
    employee' of BEST who is responsible for our network infrastructure 
    design does, also of no relation to some of the other Mueller's on the 
    net (at least not that I know of).

						-Matt
-- 
    Matthew Dillon   Engineering, BEST Internet Communications, Inc.
    <dillon@best.net>, include original article w/ any response.
    do not under any circumstances send email to joeblow@bigspender.idiom.com
    and, for gods sake, don't email bucktram@popserver.idiom.com

In comp.protocols.tcp-ip paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com wrote:
>Your parti pris is only thinly disguised by the ad hominem. For want of a
>cogent argument...

If we could get this thread off of the ad hominem track for just a
minute and actually read the original posts you'll see there are some
critical problems being addressed, including:

 * Network Solutions split off ARIN without halving their fee,

 * ARIN has created a fee structure that bears no relationship to the
   cost of providing reverse DNS resolution and netblock registration,

 * The ARIN fees heavily discriminates against smaller ISPs, startups
   and businesses that do not require a /19,

 * ARIN has not adequately solicited input from the Internet community
   as was standard (RFC) procedure before Network Solutions took
   over the Internic,

 * The corporate structure of ARIN, like Network Solutions, gives
   the appearance of for-profit intent,

 * ARIN has not been consistent in the application of its own
   requirements for netblock allocation,

 * ARIN has not made any visible effort to reclaim the numerous
   /8 and /16 netblocks that are currently underutilized and in many
   cases completely unused,

 * ARIN has not addressed the problems with netblock hoarding and
   resale that are beginning to impact Internet based businesses and
   Internet commerce (with companies like Whole Earth Networks charging
   $1,000 per year for a class C, regardless of bandwidth),

 * ARIN controls a valuable public resource with no oversight or
   regulation.

If those are not enough reasons to justify Karl Denninger's proposal I
don't know what might be.

Roger Marquis

In article <6hc9pk$4u3$1@flea.best.net>, Matt Dillon <dillon@best.net> wrote:
>:In article <gergErn56M.M7y@netcom.com>, Greg Andrews <gerg@netcom.com> wrote:
>:>paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com writes:
>:..
>
>    Heh.  I wasn't confused, I knew who he was talking about but I'll
>    throw another wrench into the works as well:  I have a brother named
>    Michael Dillon, but he's NOT the Michael Dillon you guys are talking
>    about.  In fact, I don't even think he's ever posted to the usenet.
>
>    I have no relation to the Michael Dillon in this discussion.  Dillon
>    is a relatively common last name.  I think a number of 1800-1920 era
>    immigrants used it, especially from India (dhillion, dyllon, etc...)
>    which accounts for my last name and about 1/4 of my heritage.
>
>    In anycase, to be clear:  I (Matthew Dillon) am a kind of 
>    jack-of-all-trades programmer & electrical engineer / digital designer,
>    one of the founders of BEST Internet, employee of same, and responsible
>    for most of the server infrastructure design.  Being a berkeleyite I 
>    kinda grew up with the electronics/programming bit starting around age 5.
>    It's actually kinda annoying because there are more things I want to do
>    then there are hours in the day to work on them.  I don't frequent the
>    networking lists all that much myself, but Karl Mueller, another 'original
>    employee' of BEST who is responsible for our network infrastructure 
>    design does, also of no relation to some of the other Mueller's on the 
>    net (at least not that I know of).
>
>						-Matt

Heh, even I've made this mistake in the past.  Matt, have you considered
changing your last name?  It probably would cut down on the number of
unwarranted slanderous attacks against you.  :-)

I have respect for Matt; he's clueful and a reasonable guy, even if we do
disagree from time to time.

Michael, on the other hand, I'd contemplate leaving in the ocean for the 
sharks if I came upon him after a shipwreck.  Ask him sometime about the
fun and games with ISP/C and his tenure there during the whole IAHC process.

Just don't expect a straight answer.  :-)

--
-- 
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/          | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV
			     | NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%!
Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
Fax:   [+1 312 803-4929]     | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost

In article <6hd67s$6s2$1@news.ncal.verio.com>,
Roger Marquis  <not-for-mail@roble.com> wrote:
>In comp.protocols.tcp-ip paul@No-UCE.anastrophe.com wrote:
>>Your parti pris is only thinly disguised by the ad hominem. For want of a
>>cogent argument...
>
>If we could get this thread off of the ad hominem track for just a
>minute and actually read the original posts you'll see there are some
>critical problems being addressed, including:
>
> * Network Solutions split off ARIN without halving their fee,
>
> * ARIN has created a fee structure that bears no relationship to the
>   cost of providing reverse DNS resolution and netblock registration,
>
> * The ARIN fees heavily discriminates against smaller ISPs, startups
>   and businesses that do not require a /19,
>
> * ARIN has not adequately solicited input from the Internet community
>   as was standard (RFC) procedure before Network Solutions took
>   over the Internic,
>
> * The corporate structure of ARIN, like Network Solutions, gives
>   the appearance of for-profit intent,
>
> * ARIN has not been consistent in the application of its own
>   requirements for netblock allocation,
>
> * ARIN has not made any visible effort to reclaim the numerous
>   /8 and /16 netblocks that are currently underutilized and in many
>   cases completely unused,
>
> * ARIN has not addressed the problems with netblock hoarding and
>   resale that are beginning to impact Internet based businesses and
>   Internet commerce (with companies like Whole Earth Networks charging
>   $1,000 per year for a class C, regardless of bandwidth),
>
> * ARIN controls a valuable public resource with no oversight or
>   regulation.
>
>If those are not enough reasons to justify Karl Denninger's proposal I
>don't know what might be.
>
>Roger Marquis

There is a meeting of the ARIN Advisory Council being scheduled about two
months from now.  This is a reasonable forward time span (its unreasonable
and EXPENSIVE to schedule tighter in than this, and I absolutely do NOT
want to give Kim Hubbard and other BoT members who are compensated and
reimbursed for these things an excuse to fly on ANYTHING other than 
excursion airfares in the coach cabin.)

Prior to that time I expect that the AC will have debated the points I have
raised (the two primary proposals I have put forward) and come to some kind
of consensus.  If not, then we will attempt to reach consensus during that
meeting.  It is solidly my intent that following that meeting hard, formal
recommendations will be issued to the BoT and an immediate and constructive
change will come from them.

If the BoT refuses to accept those recommendations, or if the AC fragments
to the point that nothing productive comes out of the June meeting, then I
will be soliciting members of ARIN to formally depose the board and replace
its entire complement with a representative set of people from the
community.

It is my intent as an AC member to fix the problems.  Alternatively, if I 
cannot convince the other AC members and the Board to fix the problems, it 
is my intent to force open the floodgates of competitive commerce in the
IP address business (consider the number of organizations which hold /8s,
how many of those need any significnat part of the /8 - zero, and how much
they could make leasing or selling some of that space - then tell me why
ANY public company with a fiduciary duty to stockholders wouldn't do
precisely this if the current situation continues?)  The "invisible hand"
of competition will do the rest of the job; ARIN will be unable to sustain
its present pricing and policies if even *one* /8 holder defects.

Either way, ARIN will come around.  Either because the BoT and AC do the
right thing, or because with the pressures of competitive allocation
authorities within ARIN's service area they simply will have no choice
if ARIN wants to survive at all.

I was appointed to the AC and approved by the BoT.  Some of the board
probably regrets that appointment now, but I'm there for three years 
and I intend to do my damndest to protect and advance the interests 
of the Internet's *USERS*.

--
-- 
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/          | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV
			     | NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%!
Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
Fax:   [+1 312 803-4929]     | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost

In comp.protocols.tcp-ip, comp.protocols.tcp-ip.domains, ba.internet, 
	David Kirchner <dpk@nowhere.notreal.com> wrote...

> For the benefit of c.p.t.*: Matt Dillon is a frequent poster to ba.internet.
> For the benefit of ba.internet: Michael Dillon is some other guy who posts
> to lists such as NANOG, newdom, and lots others, I'm sure. He's the one
> being discussed in this thread.
> 
> Two completely different people. :)

	And why, if I may ask, is this thread on ba.internet?  It's
	certainly not specific to the SF Bay Area.

-- 
 ---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@cybernothing.org> =========---------
  |                     All the world's indeed a stage                   |
  |                     And, damnit, I'm a stagehand.                    |
 ----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----

In comp.protocols.tcp-ip, comp.protocols.tcp-ip.domains, and ba.internet,
	Karl Denninger <karl@MCS.COM> wrote...

> I was appointed to the AC and approved by the BoT.  Some of the board
> probably regrets that appointment now, but I'm there for three years 
> and I intend to do my damndest to protect and advance the interests 
> of the Internet's *USERS*.

	Karl, the users don't give a flying fuck.  On average, they just
	want fast and reliable access to cheap, anonymous porn.

	I agree with some (but certainly not all) of your points, at
	least to the extent that I think they should be investigated once
	the Advisory Council is in a position to investigate stuff, but
	false pretenses and scare tactics should be left at the door.

-- 
 ---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@cybernothing.org> =========---------
  |         "Well, you don't have to worship Cthulhu very long,          |
  |          but I'm told it's an interesting experience."               |
  |                                    -- Scott K. Stafford              |
 ----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----

Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.COM) wrote:
...
: Either way, ARIN will come around.  Either because the BoT and AC do the
: right thing, or because with the pressures of competitive allocation
: authorities within ARIN's service area they simply will have no choice
: if ARIN wants to survive at all.

What about those of us who needed address space and were forced to pony up
the yearly /19 fee already?  Oh well, water under the bridge, I guess.

--
Dane Jasper				Sonic
(707)522-1001 (33.6kbps)		(707)522-1000 (Voice)
mailto:support@sonic.net		http://www.sonic.net

Key fingerprint =  A5 D6 6E 16 D8 81 BA E9  CB BD A9 77 B3 AF 45 53 

In article <6hdf9o$8ub$3@ultra.sonic.net>, Dane Jasper <dane@sonic.net> wrote:
>Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.COM) wrote:
>...
>: Either way, ARIN will come around.  Either because the BoT and AC do the
>: right thing, or because with the pressures of competitive allocation
>: authorities within ARIN's service area they simply will have no choice
>: if ARIN wants to survive at all.
>
>What about those of us who needed address space and were forced to pony up
>the yearly /19 fee already?  Oh well, water under the bridge, I guess.

Yearly fee ? They claimed, way back when, there would be an "allocation"
fee but no yearly fees.

Not all the Internet is commercial - people who have had addresses
for 10 years and never use ARINS services potentially having to
pay would be, um, troublesome.

-- 
Richard Sexton  280se@mbz.org  Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada
1970 280SE, 1972 280SE         http://www.mbz.org  

Roger Marquis (not-for-mail@roble.com) wrote:

:  * Network Solutions split off ARIN without halving their fee,

Halving what fee?

:  * ARIN has created a fee structure that bears no relationship to the
:    cost of providing reverse DNS resolution and netblock registration,

No, but it has built-in the cost of evaluating previous utilizations, plus
some sort of pro-rate for the base costs of operation.

:  * ARIN has not made any visible effort to reclaim the numerous
:    /8 and /16 netblocks that are currently underutilized and in many
:    cases completely unused,

Which is not necessarily something that ARIN has the authority to do.

:  * ARIN has not addressed the problems with netblock hoarding and
:    resale that are beginning to impact Internet based businesses and
:    Internet commerce (with companies like Whole Earth Networks charging
:    $1,000 per year for a class C, regardless of bandwidth),

I'm not sure that anyone has raised this issue.

I think the general feeling is that ISPs who charge for address space
will lose out to those who don't.

: Roger Marquis

Avi

Richard J. Sexton (richard@ns1.vrx.net) wrote:

: Yearly fee ? They claimed, way back when, there would be an "allocation"
: fee but no yearly fees.

: Richard Sexton  280se@mbz.org  Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada
: 1970 280SE, 1972 280SE         http://www.mbz.org  

I think the idea is that most growing ISPs will come back each year for
more space.  Thus, it "becomes" a yearly fee of sorts.

Avi

In article <6hds35$d4g@netaxs.com>, Avi Freedman <freedman@netaxs.com> wrote:
>Roger Marquis (not-for-mail@roble.com) wrote:
>
>:  * ARIN has not made any visible effort to reclaim the numerous
>:    /8 and /16 netblocks that are currently underutilized and in many
>:    cases completely unused,
>
>Which is not necessarily something that ARIN has the authority to do.

Hi Avi;

So does have this authority if not ARIN? I know a few large
blocks that people are sitting on "just because".

For example a small hospital with 2 class B's. A kid in nyc
that asked or a class B several years ago when he was 13 and was
given one, even though he wasn't using a single address, etc. etc

-- 
Richard Sexton  280se@mbz.org  Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada
1970 280SE, 1972 280SE         http://www.mbz.org  

In comp.protocols.tcp-ip Avi Freedman <freedman@netaxs.com> wrote:
>Roger Marquis (not-for-mail@roble.com) wrote:
>:  * ARIN has not made any visible effort to reclaim the numerous
>:    /8 and /16 netblocks that are currently underutilized and in many
>:    cases completely unused,

>Which is not necessarily something that ARIN has the authority to do.

What do you base your speculation on Avi?  What reason might ARIN have
for not being able to reclaim these unused netblocks?  The Intnernic
has been saying for years that unused allocations could be reclaimed.
What, if anything, has changed?

Roger Marquis