🚀 go-pugleaf

An old 16mm film projector is fairly close to what you need...
or any old 3 motor audio recording deck


On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:41:01 -0400, "Doug Danielson" <wddanie@ibm.net>
wrote:

>I need to find or build a device to unwind and wind a 500 ft reel of 20
>guage bare wire. It needs guide rollers to create a straight length of wire
>6 to 12 in. long where we will use a flame spray nozzle to apply a coating
>to the wire. The general layout would look like a reel to reel tape
>recorder, with the flame replacing the magnetic heads.
>
>The wire needs to move at a constant speed past the flame, at rates ranging
>from 1 to 60 in/min. The wire needs to remain under tension to keep it
>straight between the guide rollers. The drive mechanism cannot gaul or mark
>the wires surface, since this would disrupt the coating.
>
>I hope to find the whole device off the shelf, but if that is not possible,
>I would prefer to by some sub assemblies such as the guide rollers so that I
>minimise the portion I must create from scratch. If I have to build it
>myself, I need some advice on the motion controller to drive it. I would
>prefer one that can monitor an encoder that measures the shaft speed of one
>of the guide pullys, and adjust the spindle speed to keep a constant wire
>speed and tension as the wire pays off the reel. Can someone recommend a
>motion controller that can do this? I would prefer to use a stand alone
>controller and send it a 4-20 ma signal to set the wire feed rate, but I am
>using Labview and could use a Valuemotion board in the PC to drive the
>motors.
>
>Thanks in advance for any tips,
>
>Doug Danielson
>Atlanta, GA
>
>
>

I built a machine to wind wire on a core evenly. I used a sewing machine
motor and foot controller for the operator to have complete control over the
start, stop and hesitation during the operation. But I added a screw onto
which I put Teflon fingers to tension and guide the wire from left to right,
right to left. The machine could handle wires from #26 through #36 and all
that was required was a screw adjustment on a flywheel I put between the
bearing holding the winder shaft, which has a Jacob's chuck to hold whatever
mandrel selected for a particular job.

Think of two microswithces at each end of travel which trigger a simple
latching relay. Connect the screw to a stepper motor to a Minarik 230 Series
Modular Translator drive - now link a punched round disk connected to the
flywheel so it moves in or out thus giving you the control for the pitch
diameter of the wire. Connect an optical sensor so that each time the
punched hole opens it passes one signal to the stepper controller which will
turn the screw driver one pulse.... make your setup match the number of
stepper pulses needed to advance the saddle exactly the distance of the wire
diameter for each winding shaft revolution. You can do this with accuracies
of .0001" or better.

Total cost of the machine was less than $1,000 and is still running after
five years in operation.

Doug Danielson wrote in message <360dc30b.0@news1.ibm.net>...
>I need to find or build a device to unwind and wind a 500 ft reel of 20
>guage bare wire. It needs guide rollers to create a straight length of wire
>6 to 12 in. long where we will use a flame spray nozzle to apply a coating
>to the wire. The general layout would look like a reel to reel tape
>recorder, with the flame replacing the magnetic heads.
>
>The wire needs to move at a constant speed past the flame, at rates ranging
>from 1 to 60 in/min. The wire needs to remain under tension to keep it
>straight between the guide rollers. The drive mechanism cannot gaul or mark
>the wires surface, since this would disrupt the coating.
>
>Doug Danielson
>Atlanta, GA
>

I have seen and worked on similar applications for different industries.
They have always been a compilation of devices from various sources.  The
usual configuration is a feeder roll which will either feed directly to the
process (If the tensile strength of the material is adiquate) or despool
through a drive roller to a loo which is maintained between a given distance
from the floor to a given ddroop from taut (Droop position detection depends
on material and can be as simple as a small roller riding on your wire and
pivoting a speed pot  or triggering switches.  The process device then
powers thematerial at a constant speed.  The takeup real is then controlled
in the reverse mode of the feed roll.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------EE49F084C448AF0D92746B36
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I guess 20 gauge is about .032.  that's in
between welding wire sizes.  The common smooth
drive rolls pull the wire by deforming it to a
square or triangular shape.  They do make u
groove rolls that might work but they come in
.030 and .035.  maybe someone knows of a non
welding source for .032 drive. If you can settle
for the deformation then the .030 rolls may
work. I guess the amount of deformation depends
on how much pressure you need to put on the wire
to feed it consistently.  Maybe the wire will
return to its original shape.

Doug Danielson wrote:
> 
> I need to find or build a device to unwind and wind a 500 ft reel of 20
> guage bare wire. It needs guide rollers to create a straight length of wire
> 6 to 12 in. long where we will use a flame spray nozzle to apply a coating
> to the wire. The general layout would look like a reel to reel tape
> recorder, with the flame replacing the magnetic heads.
> 
> The wire needs to move at a constant speed past the flame, at rates ranging
> from 1 to 60 in/min. The wire needs to remain under tension to keep it
> straight between the guide rollers. The drive mechanism cannot gaul or mark
> the wires surface, since this would disrupt the coating.
> 
> I hope to find the whole device off the shelf, but if that is not possible,
> I would prefer to by some sub assemblies such as the guide rollers so that I
> minimise the portion I must create from scratch. If I have to build it
> myself, I need some advice on the motion controller to drive it. I would
> prefer one that can monitor an encoder that measures the shaft speed of one
> of the guide pullys, and adjust the spindle speed to keep a constant wire
> speed and tension as the wire pays off the reel. Can someone recommend a
> motion controller that can do this? I would prefer to use a stand alone
> controller and send it a 4-20 ma signal to set the wire feed rate, but I am
> using Labview and could use a Valuemotion board in the PC to drive the
> motors.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any tips,
> 
> Doug Danielson
> Atlanta, GA
--------------EE49F084C448AF0D92746B36
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for C. Joy
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"

begin:          vcard
fn:             C. Joy
n:              Joy;C.
email;internet: cjsj@cmc.net
title:          Craiger of #duvs-nest (undernet)
note:           E-mail me at cjsj@cmc.net.  I can be found on IRC  in #duvs-nest  on the undernet.  My ICQ # is 7013178
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version:        2.1
end:            vcard


--------------EE49F084C448AF0D92746B36--

The machine I described, using a stepper motor triggered by pulses from an
optical encoder on a 90 degree shaft with vernier adjustment of a take-off
wheel is now obsolete. If I were to build another machine I would use the
Basic Stamp and program it to accept variable input being the wire diameter
then asking it to pulse out X number to the stepper controller. This would
eliminate a shaft flywheel, a separate shaft mounted on precision linear
bearings, another pierced wheel for the photo cell, the photo cell and
related circuitry and have infinitely variable control for whatever wire
size I would be winding.

I'm sure a simple 555 would do the same but I never could figure out how to
get an RC circuit to pulse exactly, and without error, to the stepper
controller nor could I figure out a simple dial-in for wire size.

What we have now with this simple device is an easy and repeatable method of
synchronizing the horizontal axis to the motion of the main shaft for any
given wire diameter.

Thanks for the tip.

Doug Danielson

Wayne Lundberg wrote in message <6uon7q$s0g@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>The machine I described, using a stepper motor triggered by pulses from an
>optical encoder on a 90 degree shaft with vernier adjustment of a take-off
>wheel is now obsolete. If I were to build another machine I would use the
>Basic Stamp and program it to accept variable input being the wire diameter
>then asking it to pulse out X number to the stepper controller. This would
>eliminate a shaft flywheel, a separate shaft mounted on precision linear
>bearings, another pierced wheel for the photo cell, the photo cell and
>related circuitry and have infinitely variable control for whatever wire
>size I would be winding.
>
>I'm sure a simple 555 would do the same but I never could figure out how to
>get an RC circuit to pulse exactly, and without error, to the stepper
>controller nor could I figure out a simple dial-in for wire size.
>
>What we have now with this simple device is an easy and repeatable method
of
>synchronizing the horizontal axis to the motion of the main shaft for any
>given wire diameter.
>
>

It seems then central point that the system shoiuld have a supply reel
driven by a torque motor , one set of pinch rollers with a brake to
control the tension in the wire before the coating area, a second
set of pinch rollers driven by a variable speed motor to drive with
wire and a take up reel, driven by a torque motor has never been
clearly stated.

I would use two reels, perhaps specially made, so that the full length
of wire can be wound on a reel with a negligible change in the winding
diameter.  Let's say keeping the change in winding diameter between 5
and 10% of the core diameter.  If you have sufficient distance between
the driven set of pinch rollers and the take-up reel the wire might
level wind by itself.  It would be worth the time to make a quick test
to see if thre wire will level wind itself without assistance.

The torque motors could be the small Bodine Electric AC  Induction
motors.  Their torque is easily controlled by a small Variac.  C & H
Surplus in Pasadena California sells these motors and small Variac
Autoformers at surplus prices.  For the brake on the supply side pinch
roller set a magnetic powder clutch would be ideal. Of course the
brake will control the tension of the wire in the coating area.  C & H
may have some of these in the catalog, I do not have it at hand as I
write this.  They also have DC motors with tachometer outputs that
could be used for the driving pinch rollers.  Also there are a number
of suppliers of small, precisely speed controlled DC motor drives.  I
think you would want to have a system with either a "digital tach" or
a dc voltage tachometer, I would shy away from those DC controllers
that sense the motor speed by calculating it from the applied voltage
and the current drawn by the motor for this application.

For the pinch rollers I would use one steel roller and a hard rubber
pinch roller working together.  I would connect both the brake and the
drive motot to the steel roller side,  The reel motors will not need
any control beyond setting their supply voltage to obtain the optinum
winding and unwinding tension in the wire, since the reels will wind
at a substantially constant radius.

Del Stanton  sd20@earthlink.net

I occurs to me that the follow can be simplified:

>For the brake on the supply side pinch roller set a magnetic 
>powder clutch would be ideal. Of course the brake will 
>control the tension of the wire in the coating area.

Use a torgue motor - connected to pull the wire backwards.  That will
give a very smooth reistance as the driving capstan pulls the wire
forwards.  The torque can easily be adjusted with a small Variac.

Del Stanton   sd20@earthiink.net

On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 17:17:09 GMT, sd20@earthlink.net (Del Stanton)
wrote:

>It seems then central point that the system shoiuld have a supply reel
>driven by a torque motor , one set of pinch rollers with a brake to
>control the tension in the wire before the coating area, a second
>set of pinch rollers driven by a variable speed motor to drive with
>wire and a take up reel, driven by a torque motor has never been
>clearly stated.
>
>I would use two reels, perhaps specially made, so that the full length
>of wire can be wound on a reel with a negligible change in the winding
>diameter.  Let's say keeping the change in winding diameter between 5
>and 10% of the core diameter.  If you have sufficient distance between
>the driven set of pinch rollers and the take-up reel the wire might
>level wind by itself.  It would be worth the time to make a quick test
>to see if thre wire will level wind itself without assistance.
>
>The torque motors could be the small Bodine Electric AC  Induction
>motors.  Their torque is easily controlled by a small Variac.  C & H
>Surplus in Pasadena California sells these motors and small Variac
>Autoformers at surplus prices.  For the brake on the supply side pinch
>roller set a magnetic powder clutch would be ideal. Of course the
>brake will control the tension of the wire in the coating area.  C & H
>may have some of these in the catalog, I do not have it at hand as I
>write this.  They also have DC motors with tachometer outputs that
>could be used for the driving pinch rollers.  Also there are a number
>of suppliers of small, precisely speed controlled DC motor drives.  I
>think you would want to have a system with either a "digital tach" or
>a dc voltage tachometer, I would shy away from those DC controllers
>that sense the motor speed by calculating it from the applied voltage
>and the current drawn by the motor for this application.
>
>For the pinch rollers I would use one steel roller and a hard rubber
>pinch roller working together.  I would connect both the brake and the
>drive motot to the steel roller side,  The reel motors will not need
>any control beyond setting their supply voltage to obtain the optinum
>winding and unwinding tension in the wire, since the reels will wind
>at a substantially constant radius.
>
>Del Stanton  sd20@earthlink.net

A company I used to work for used a big DC motor and a pulley with a
strain gauge built into the shaft.  We just stuck a reel of kevlar or
carbon fiber onto the motor shaft, and used a big hairy motor
controller of our own design to control pay-out and take-up speed.
Tension was monitored via the strain gauge in the pulley shaft.  We
had a microprocessor based design, but the engineering guru in the
group could actually do better with analog circuitry.  Our systems
were sold to people doing things like building composite nosecones and
thruster nozzles for missiles and satellites.  You can see some
details at www.fiber-tensioners.com - I left the company when they
moved to South Carolina... :-(  Most interesting job I ever had.



      -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com)
       http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer
       Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.)