🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <820615882snz@longley.demon.co.uk>
           David@longley.demon.co.uk "David Longley" writes:

> I  have  a Western Digital "Caviar" 500MB Hard  drive  which  has 
> about 10MB of bad blocks. I'd prefer to be able to exclude  these 
> altogether  through a low level format. Are there  any  utilities 
> around which will do this? Any Public Domain ones anyone could e-
> mail me?
> 
> -- 
> David Longley
> 

Low level formatting of IDE drives is generally not recomended. However I have
low level formated two IDE drive and used them for years with no problems
whatsoever. 

The BIOS in your PC proballay will have a utility for low level formating hard
drives.



-- 
Robin Imrie

In article <820615882snz@longley.demon.co.uk> David Longley <David@longley.demon.co.uk> writes:
>From: David Longley <David@longley.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Low Level Formatting an IDE Drive ?
>Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 20:51:22 GMT

>I  have  a Western Digital "Caviar" 500MB Hard  drive  which  has 
>about 10MB of bad blocks. I'd prefer to be able to exclude  these 
>altogether  through a low level format. Are there  any  utilities 
>around which will do this? Any Public Domain ones anyone could e-
>mail me?

Disk Manager by Ontrack will do just about anything you want to do to an IDE 
drive. Be cautious.


>-- 
>David Longley

Bob C.

* Good, fast, cheap!  (Pick 2) *

As quoted from <820662443snz@dozey.demon.co.uk> by Robin Imrie <robimrie@dozey.demon.co.uk>:

> Low level formatting of IDE drives is generally not recomended. However I have
> low level formated two IDE drive and used them for years with no problems
> whatsoever. 
> 
> The BIOS in your PC proballay will have a utility for low level formating hard
> drives.

Probably not, unless this is something common in the UK.  I don't recall seeing
one that permitted low-level format from the BIOS.  I know my AMI "Win" BIOS
doesn't, nor does the Phoenix BIOS on my 386.

When I've needed to do it, I just used a shareware IDE low-level format 
program, of which there are several.  I recently had to do an l-l format
on a machine that had previously had Linux on it.  The machine seems to be
working fine.

-- 

===================================================================
|             It takes a pair of hands to build a bomb.           |
|        It takes a government to build a concentration camp.     |

In article <820615882snz@longley.demon.co.uk>
           David@longley.demon.co.uk "David Longley" writes:

" I  have  a Western Digital "Caviar" 500MB Hard  drive  which  has 
" about 10MB of bad blocks. I'd prefer to be able to exclude  these 
" altogether  through a low level format. Are there  any  utilities 
" around which will do this? Any Public Domain ones anyone could e-
" mail me?

    Other things being equal, as another post has pointed out, you
 don't need software to do this.  If you use DEBUG to start the
 control program which is situated at +5 bytes from the load-point of
 your disk-controller's BIOS, you'll get straight into the low-level
 formatter, and it will be the correct one for the HDC in question.

    I've formatted quite a lot of IDEs, for reasons which were good at
 the time.  You ought to know the drive's configuration (heads,
 cylinders, sectors/track, possibly write-comp & landing-zone).
 If you put these in as different from reality, everything goes ahead
 quite happily but you end up with a drive which has a theoretical
 'shape' different from its real shape, which does not usually matter
 (though it may affect performance).  If the theoretical size is less
 than reality, you've abandoned the extra; if it's greater, then all
 the sectors which are "off the end" will be bad, and normal formatting
 will take a LONG time!

    Problem areas:  Auto-sensing of the drive parameters will (probably)
 still pick up the real shape, and sometimes the boot won't work if
 you've altered the shape.

    BUT:  What are you trying to achieve?  The sectors will probably
 still be bad.  If they were marked bad in error, a normal format will
 cure it.
                                            Chris K.
-- 
Chris Kennington        <==x  <==x  <==x         cjk@inf-eden.demon.co.uk
Eden Cottage, Mays Green, Harpsden, Henley-on-Thames, Oxon. RG9 4AJ.  U.K.
Tel: +44 1491 574065                                 Fax: +44 1491 410064

In article <820777667snz@inf-eden.demon.co.uk>
           cjk@inf-eden.demon.co.uk "Chris Kennington" writes:

> In article <820615882snz@longley.demon.co.uk>
>            David@longley.demon.co.uk "David Longley" writes:
> 
> " I  have  a Western Digital "Caviar" 500MB Hard  drive  which  has 
> " about 10MB of bad blocks. I'd prefer to be able to exclude  these 
> " altogether  through a low level format. Are there  any  utilities 
> " around which will do this? Any Public Domain ones anyone could e-
> " mail me?
> 
>     Other things being equal, as another post has pointed out, you
>  don't need software to do this.  If you use DEBUG to start the
>  control program which is situated at +5 bytes from the load-point of
>  your disk-controller's BIOS, you'll get straight into the low-level
>  formatter, and it will be the correct one for the HDC in question.
> 
>     I've formatted quite a lot of IDEs, for reasons which were good at
>  the time.  You ought to know the drive's configuration (heads,
>  cylinders, sectors/track, possibly write-comp & landing-zone).
>  If you put these in as different from reality, everything goes ahead
>  quite happily but you end up with a drive which has a theoretical
>  'shape' different from its real shape, which does not usually matter
>  (though it may affect performance).  If the theoretical size is less
>  than reality, you've abandoned the extra; if it's greater, then all
>  the sectors which are "off the end" will be bad, and normal formatting
>  will take a LONG time!
> 
>     Problem areas:  Auto-sensing of the drive parameters will (probably)
>  still pick up the real shape, and sometimes the boot won't work if
>  you've altered the shape.
> 
>     BUT:  What are you trying to achieve?  The sectors will probably
>  still be bad.  If they were marked bad in error, a normal format will
>  cure it.
>                                             Chris K.
> -- 
> Chris Kennington        <==x  <==x  <==x         cjk@inf-eden.demon.co.uk
> Eden Cottage, Mays Green, Harpsden, Henley-on-Thames, Oxon. RG9 4AJ.  U.K.
> Tel: +44 1491 574065                                 Fax: +44 1491 410064
> 
I've used WD_IDE.EXE from WD, which purportedly tests the drive's 
tracks and relocates bad sectors/tracks. However, when I then try 
and  Format in DOS, the process continues to about 50%  and  then 
ends  with  "format  terminated". If I thin use Norton  to  do  a 
surface analysis, all the bad blocks reappear.

Surely  the  relocation  algorithim should  have  moved  the  bad 
sectors etc 'out of sight'?

This is the text file for WDAT_IDE.TXT from ftp.wdc.com. I've even
tried providing a F file of the bad tracks, heads etc. It says it
relocates, but format still fails. Any suggestions?

README - WDAT_IDE.TXT


REVISION: 4.04


This utility scans the media and remaps any grown defects on
a Western Digital drive. It also provides performance data
such as seek times and data access times.


COMMAND LINE OPTIONS:

To run the menu-driven test, type 'WDAT_IDE' from the DOS
prompt.

The following options may be included on the command line
       after 'WDAT_IDE':

       L =  open NEW log file WDAT_IDE.LOG (only use this option
            when running the test from a floppy, since hard
            disk data corruption will occur!!!)
            The old WDAT_IDE.LOG will be overwritten.
       S =  skip pause at end of 'no menu' run
       R =  relocate sectors marked as 'bad sectors'
       F =  relocate addresses shown in file WDAT_IDE.DAT
       D =  operate on second drive if F option chosen
       1 =  select first drive, run quick scan with no menu
            or C option
       2 =  select second drive, run quick scan with no menu
            or C option
       C =  comprehensive analysis, no menu.  used with
            options 1 or 2
       Px - Used to address adapter 1F0h, 170h, 1E8h or 168h.
            '1' : 1F0  primary adapter
            '2' : 170  secondary adapter

  (supports - or none  -P1 same as P1 same as -p1 same as p1)
  (space required between options)


The 'L' option may be used at anytime with the above line
options.  It will show the drive ID information and any error
that occurs.  The old WDAT_IDE.LOG will be overwritten.


The data file for the 'F' option should be an ASCII text file
with a C, H and S specified for each address to be relocated.
To relocate a track, specify the C and H and set the S to
255. All addresses must be specified in decimal.  All sector
addresses are for user locations.  All track addresses are
physical locations.  The first sector is specified as one,
not zero.

For example, to relocate the TRANSLATED 23rd sector from
index at C10 H1 and the NATIVE track at C20 H3, store the
following text in WDAT_IDE.DAT:


                    10, 1, 23
                    20, 3, 255



PROGRAM CHARACTERISTICS:

   - retries disabled
   - cache disabled
   - identifies drive models and number of drives
   - menu driven


MENU OPTION DESCRIPTIONS:

    MAIN MENU SELECTION:

        0 - Quick Surface Scan
        1 - Comprehensive Analysis
        2 - Performance Data
        3 - Select Drive
        4 - Park Drives and Quit"
                               

    MENU SELECTION "0 - Quick Surface Scan" description:

        1. Read sequentially, a track at a time.  No 
           writes are issued.

        2. Performs appropriate defect management if errors
           are detected:  See section below for details
           regarding defect management.

        3. Will save user data when conditions permit.  Some
           conditions will not allow the customer data to be
           retrieved.


    MENU SELECTION "1 - Comprehensive Analysis" description:

        1. Prompts user before starting that data will be
           lost, ESCAPE to exit.

        2. Read scan of surface first as in selection zero
           above.

        3. Writes/Read sequentially, the entire surface a
           track at a time.  Each track is written with 9
           data patterns, and 3 reads are issued after each
           write. So each track is read a minimum of 27 times,
           more if errors occur.  The data patterns are:

             PATTERN:

           A: 0031304dc3bad57bc44b75602e358da99986c947dbb0
           B: 6633
           C: 33cb
           D: cb4cf730
           E: 2222
           F: 136b31136bb3
           G: c086043021800
           H: random data
           I: 0000

        4. Performs appropriate defect management:  See
           section below for details regarding defect
           management.

        5. Will not save user data, this selection WILL
           DESTROY all customer data.


    MENU SELECTION "2 - Performance Data" description:

        1. Data collected will be displayed based on drive
           selected.

        2. If no drive is selected or not accessable the
           message 'Can't establish physical parameters'
           will be displayed.

        3. The following data will be displayed.  If the
           L option is selected it will be logged:

               Track to Track SEEK:  shown in milliseconds.

               Average random SEEK:  shown in milliseconds.

               Full stroke SEEK:     shown in milliseconds.

               DATA transfer TEST:  B: = block size, data
                                     shown in kilobytes/sec.

        4. This selection is not restricted to drive list
           maintained by this program.


    MENU SELECTION "3 - Select Drive/Port" description:

        1. This option only allows drives found to be selected.

        2. Powering up a drive from a separate supply is supported
           by this menu option.  Hit P to switch adapter ports,
           Primary or Secondary, (see Px option for address)

        3. If a MASTER jumpered drive is selected with no slave
           a wait of up to 30 seconds may be required to access
           this drive.

        4. Slave is supported without MASTER.

        5. If a drive is selected and accessable the drive
           number in the top window will blink and bottom
           window will show 'DRIVE # is SELECTED'.  If the
           L option is selected the information in 2 above
           will be logged.  Adapter Primary or Secondary will
           show center screen.


DEFECT MANAGEMENT DETAILS:

If an error is detected while reading a track, the following
    steps occur:

   1) If a Bad Block error is detected, then the sector is
      re-formatted as no longer bad.  If R option sector will
      be relocated.

   2) If an error occurs during any read, the relocation
      algorithm is executed, and reverification of the
      track is repeated.


Relocation Algorithm Details:

   If a servo error occurs, the track is relocated.
   If an ID Not Found error occurs, the sector is relocated.
   If a physical track already has 3 relocated sectors, the
      track is relocated.
   If an ECC or DAM error occurs, the sector is relocated.
      Since retries are disabled, correctable ECC errors are
      reported as uncorrectable and are relocated.
   If an ABORTED command error occurs, the relocate track
      function is invoked.


REVISION HISTORY:

  3.80    02/07/95 rbn    last version for ARCH ONE
  4.00    08/23/95 rbn    first release supporting ARCH 2
                          ESC replaced by ALT_X.  Get rid of drive
                          list and help from menu
  4.01    09/08/95 rbn    xlate phy head using total instead of position
                          add relscan2 (1.04) fix for establish ID sector
  4.02    10/04/95 rbn    fix hang on aborted command, reduce reads from
                          10 to 3 on comprehensive
  4.03    10/26/95 rbn    add more zone tables and config sector size
                          to 4 for c10.  drive not supported for c9/c10
  4.04    10/31/95 rbn    change warning message for comprehensive                          


-- 
David Longley

jcm@pegasus.bl-els.att.com (-John McMillan) wrote:
>>David Thomas Richard Given <dtrg@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:

[text redacted at will]

>>DANGER!
>>Low level formatting an IDE drive with the wrong program can royally 
>>screw it. IDE drives rely on different tracks having different numbers of 
>>sectors to get the data-per-track as high as possible. Low level 
>>formatting can undo this, and reduce the capacity by 50%.
>>
>>Modern IDE drives should NEVER be low-level formatted (besides, to do 
>>this, you need dedicated hardware).
>>
>>XT hard drives and SCSI ones, yes. If you try to do this for an IDE 
>>drive, it'll probably just purge it.

[llf == low-level format]

The original post concerned a WD Caviar drive, ie "modern", which you
say to NEVER llf.  Then you say it requires dedicated hardware to do
it (true), implying 'you' can't do it even if 'you' wanted to.  Can
we all say moot?  What you wrote, while generally correct, was likely
hard to follow by someone lacking knowledge of HD "history".  If
you're going to shout DANGER!, it would be more helpful to clearly
explain what the danger is, and who's at risk.

>Oh my.  Let's see: Seagate distributes a program to low-level format
>IDE drives -- I FTP'd one down a year ago.  WD [reportedly] does the
>same.  And we're supposed to accept this yoyo's warnings of impending
>doom on this planet if we format our IDE drives?

See above.  The phrase 'llf' is often used incorrectly, as here,
although to be fair the meaning has changed over time.  We'll stick
to the current meaning, ie from the point of view of a HD producer
(see below).

>Now let's think about it:
Good idea.
>1) "Tracks" are formatted: formatting a disk is just formatting each
>	track on that disk.  There aren't any strikingly new technologies
>	on IDE disks: these are "regular" disk technologies with
>	regular controller technologies and a special IDE adapter
>	interfacing the disk and a local cache to the IDE controller.
>2) The s/w to format a track is negligable: you make a track-image and
>	perform a format write.  The original BIOS's were capable of
>	this repetitive track formatting in a negligable stub of s/w:
>	it's a -small- task, not a big one.

>Just "possibly" the IDE adapter -- which knows the size of its drive's
>variable tracks -- performs today's trivial task of creating each track's
>image and writing it.

>A) I don't -know- how the IDE's are reformatted.  The above is pretty
Obviously.
>	plausible: the BIOS couldn't attempt to format each track of
>	the IDE drive, but it could just ask the IDE controller if it
>	would please be so kind.  But... it probably DOESN'T, or there
>	wouldn't be special WD and Seagate programs.

>B) It has been posted in this thread that the disk drive maufacturers
>	place the s/w to format drives in their BBS's.  This poster has
>	received and run that software to "purge" his IDE drives -- 
>	whatever that means.  (Perhaps they were "binged" first.)  I've
>	pulled this s/w and used it.  Others have reported doing so.

>	-If- purging his disk low-level re-formatted it, then -why- does
>	this latest poster assert that special equipment is necessary to
>	re-format?  If he doesn't think it was re-formatted, what does
>	he think was done?

>Summary: get the correct s/w from the manufacturer and thrill to the
>excitement of re-formatting your disk.  Of course, it may be as useless
>for you as it was for me -- the disk was just as troubled afterwards
>as before.  And, if you're ever in St. Andrews, Scotland, (1) be amazed
>at the roughness of its historical golf course, (2) enjoy the school 
>and the ruined church [cathedral?], and (3) don't ask for directions or
>IDE information!
Did somebody's HD have a seek error into a golf newsgroup?
Ref (3): Don't worry, I won't.

  ***** Following text extracted from a Quantum FAQ:

Q: How do I low level format the drive? 
A: You cannot low level format the disk drive. The servo, sector
layout and defect management information contained in the low level
format is designed to last the life of the drive. This information
and the way it is written cannot be duplicated in any way outside of
the factory. Drives manufactured today ignore low level routines.

Q: I have a low level routine and it seems to run okay, why? 
A: Some manufactures do have routines they label as a low level
formatter. These routines actually perform write-read verifies of the
drive's user data sectors, they don't actually low level format the
drive. 

  ***** Following text extracted from Western Digital web site,
  ***** discussing installation:

Preparing the Caviar Drive for Use

Your Caviar drive has been low-level formatted.  The hard drive is
ready to set up and is defect-free.  The drive must be partitioned
and high-level formatted so it can accept files.  This section
provides guidelines for preparing your drive.  Consult your operating
system documentation for complete information on preparing the drive
for use with your operating system.
--
Cheers, John
[mail]
Internet=jcnaylor@nando.net
AmericaOnline=jcnaylor@aol.com    (by appointment only)

dtrg@st-andrews.ac.uk (David Thomas Richard Given) wrote:

>Modern IDE drives should NEVER be low-level formatted (besides, to do 
>this, you need dedicated hardware).

Right, David, I think Western Digital would second that.

Wrt David Longley's original post (prior to this thread) and his WDC
drive, I responded earlier today via direct email.  I'll post the
gist of what I sent him, as it may help clear up some of the
confusion in earlier posts.  The text below comes from a WDC web
page.  The utilities described can be had via WDC's web site and FTP
site (obviously, free of charge, but likely of little interest unless
you have a WD drive).  WDC has additional stuff available at its FTP
site, but I suspect the two utilities WD has named their All-Star
package is what he needs.  If his HD is *really* physically fubar,
we'll hope the warrenty is still good ... or that maybe WDC is still
filled with holiday cheer.  <g> 

All-Star Utilities
    SIZE: 122K
All-Star utilities file contains two of our most popular utilities:
WDATIDE.EXE, our Defect Manager and WD_CLEAR.EXE which is our pseudo
low-level formatter. These files can also be downloaded individually
from this page. 

WDATIDE.EXE
    SIZE: 101K
This utility scans the media and remaps any grown defects on a
Western Digital drive. It also provides performance data such as seek
times and data access times. 

WD_CLEAR.EXE
    SIZE: 52 K
This utility contains WDCLEAR.EXE which will verify read/write to the
entire hard drive. Specifically, this utility is used to scan the
drive for errors and to re-initialize the drive (i.e. a pseudo
low-level formatter). This utility replaces WDFMT.EXE on Caviar
drives.
--
Cheers, John
[mail]
Internet=jcnaylor@nando.net
AmericaOnline=jcnaylor@aol.com    (by appointment only)

David Longley wrote:
> 
> I  have  a Western Digital "Caviar" 500MB Hard  drive  which  has
> about 10MB of bad blocks. I'd prefer to be able to exclude  these
> altogether  through a low level format. Are there  any  utilities
> around which will do this? Any Public Domain ones anyone could e-
> mail me?
> 
> --
> David Longley

Use this program... it's off of the Western Digital WebSite... BTW... 
you can't Low-level format an IDE hard drive.  This thing does pretty 
much the same thing though.

ftp://ftp.wdc.com/drivers/hdutil/wd_clear.exe

Hope this works for you.