🚀 go-pugleaf

In <stephenkDowqB9.F4E@netcom.com> stephenk@netcom.com (Stephen Knilans) writes:

>In article <danpop.827809042@rscernix> danpop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:
>>In <4j6lv1$k3r@news.mpd.tandem.com> Joseph Crowe <jcrowe> writes:
>>
>>>danpop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
>>>>Can you use a Unix system without a shell?  Try to remove all the shells
>>>>from your Unix system and see what you get :-)
>>>
>>>   Absolutely.  You could have a user login on a *NIX system and in the
>>>/etc/passwd entry for that user, have whatever binary you wish to provide the
>>>user interface.  That could include a totally graphical interface if one so
>>>desired.
>>
>>Your Unix system won't even boot without a shell!  Just remove all the
>>shells, as I suggested and see if you can use that box, no matter what
>>you put in /etc/passwd as the user login shell.
>
>You have NO idea what you are talking about!

If this is true, then remove /bin/sh and try to reboot your Unix system.
It's as simple as this.  You'll see who is the guy who has NO idea what
he is talking about.

>>The shells (or at least /bin/sh) are part of the design of a Unix system.
>>Library calls like system() and popen() or system components like cron
>>rely on the existence of /bin/sh and simply don't work without it.
>
>cron uses a shell to SIMPLIFY things!

It uses a shell to execute the shell commands scheduled in the crontab
file. 

>Don't you need to have lotus 1-2-3 to
>have full 1-2-3 functionality?  HUH??????

I fail to see how your "point" relates to your claim than /bin/sh is not
part of Unix.

>system means "send command to SHELL"!!!!!!!
>popen means "open a SHELL and use a pipe for terminal I/O"!!!!!!!
>cron means "send a command to the SHELL at a particular time"
>
>NOW HOW do you send a command to a shell without having the shell, HUH?

This was precisely my point, which shows that I knew perfectly well what
I was talking about.  system(), popen() and cron are parts of the Unix
operating system.  Remove them and you have something which isn't Unix
any longer.
>
>
>
>>>>BTW, you found no contradiction:  Will Packard is perfectly right, Unix
>>>>is not one or more shells, for the simple reason that the shells are a
>>>>component of the Unix system.  The other components are the kernel and
>>>>the system utilities.  All these components define a Unix system.
>>>
>>>   Shells in *NIX are applications, pure and simple.  
>>
>>True, but irrelevant.  Everything in Unix is an application.  Some of them,
>>(e.g. /bin/sh, getty, login, init, ifconfig) are critical components of 
>>the operating system.
>
>I don't believe I have EVER used sh here!  

You mean, not explicitly.  Enable accounting on your Unix system and 
have a look at how many sh processes are being run, behind your back.

>I am planning on getting rid of getty, and have in the past!  

So what?  If you don't use it, does it mean that it isn't part of Unix?

>Let me set you straight, ok???  UNIX is TRULY only a multitasking system which
>has all things running at a high level.  init manages tasks, or which one is
>getty.  getty simply waits for a signal to start login.  login starts the
>shell(which could be ANY program)!  
>
>ifconfig?  That is simply for NETWORKS!  Are you telling me the macintosh has
>NO ability to configure networks?

I'm telling you that without these components, which are all "Unix 
applications, pure and simple" your Unix system won't work at all.  It's
as simple as this.  You can definitely design an OS which will work 
without them, but that system won't be Unix any longer.  Got it?

>>Plain bullshit.  Remove all the system utilities from /bin /usr/bin /sbin
>>/usr/sbin, etc and see what you can do on that Unix system.  After all,
>>you still have the kernel and the libraries.
>
>Try removing all the system files on the MACINTOSH, and see how far you get!

We were talking about "applications, pure and simple", not about system
files.  I didn't ask you to remove any of the Unix configuration files,
only "applications, pure and simple", like /bin/sh, right?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: danpop@mail.cern.ch 
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland