🚀 go-pugleaf

From article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, by bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N):
> I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to
> drop Zenith as its major computer vendor.  I am looking for actual
> instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers.

Why do you want to drop Zenith?  My family has had 6 Heath/Zenith computers
and _never_ had a stitch of trouble with them (except for the power supply
connections on the H89).  We have 2 Z-100s that have been going for 7 or 8
years now.  We have a 151 that is still going, and two 158s.  The documentation
is infinitely superior to anything anybody else gives you with their computers
(as far as I know).  How can you have horror stories if you never have to talk
to the vendor, the product is so well designed?

- Jeff Shorey

In article <1131@cameron.egr.duke.edu> js@dukee.egr.duke.edu (Jeffrey A. Shorey) writes:
>Why do you want to drop Zenith?  My family has had 6 Heath/Zenith computers
>and _never_ had a stitch of trouble with them (except for the power supply
>connections on the H89).  We have 2 Z-100s that have been going for 7 or 8
>years now.  We have a 151 that is still going, and two 158s.  The documentation
>is infinitely superior to anything anybody else gives you with their computers
>(as far as I know).  How can you have horror stories if you never have to talk
>to the vendor, the product is so well designed?
>
>- Jeff Shorey

I agreed, I have had 2 Zenith computers so far, one Z-158, and got a Z-248
just this year.  The 158 might be slow, but very reliable (I bought it in
1985!).  I also agree on the documentation, I have seen manuals from other
vendors, they are horrible.  There might be horror story to tell about other
computer, but not the ones from Zenith.

--Eric Fong

In article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) writes:

> I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to
> drop Zenith as its major computer vendor.  I am looking for actual
> instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers.

I can tell you lots of horror stories involving IBM, a couple of bad items
involving CompuAdd; but I've no complaints concerning ZDS machines or
service.  What bad experiences have you had?  Malfunctioning equipment?
Poor service?

-- 
Richard L Shelby       Dept of Health Services       Univ of Kentucky
rshelby@ms.uky.edu  rshelby@ukma.BITNET  {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!rshelby

            You're never too old to have a happy childhood.

I won't buy anything BUT Zenith. I have a 248 from 1984 still
running with no problems at all (original hard disk !). Where
I work, a fleet of z-286 machines has had few problems in 3 years
of extreme usage.

Note however that the original posting seemed to focus on the vendor,
not the equipment. This is a different matter, but Zenith ware is good
enough that one rarely needs to talk to the vendor at all.

My 158 is one of those.
I've never been able to get EMS to work. When I bought a VGA card, it
took two trips to ZDS for them to admit that:

1) yes, the CPU card should work with a Video 7 VGA. 
2) yours won't
3) we don't know why.

After many letters, calls, etc, they replaced the card with one that
did work. Note the replaced card was NOT the one in the box at
purchase. THOSE were 40% jumpers--I sarcastically called them "flight
{grade} hardware" and got ZDS to come up with both CPU & Floppy/video
cards that were at least later than 'prototype' level.

I never succeeded in getting onto the MSDOS upgrade list, either.

The Capital Heath User Group members I knew used to kid me that
that {non pc clone} Z-100 was more compatible than my 158.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu 
& no one will talk to a host that's close............(305) 255-RTFM
Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335
is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335

wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) writes:

>My 158 is one of those.

This is strange, because I've had my 158 for almost 4 years, and I've
never had a problem.  (The one time the machine malfunctioned, Zenith
sent a tech to look at it _IN_MY_DORM_ROOM_ who promptly told me it was
too close to the wall, which took care of the problem.)

>I've never been able to get EMS to work.

I have 640k of EMS that works with no hitch.  Did you buy your board
from Zenith.  (I've had both a Zenith board and an AST board, and both
of them performed flawlessly.)

>The Capital Heath User Group members I knew used to kid me that
>that {non pc clone} Z-100 was more compatible than my 158.

I've never had a compatibilty problem either.  Overall I've been very
happy with my 158.  ZDS has been extremely helpful when it comes to
producing any type of additional materials (technical references, extra
manuals, etc.) that I might need.  The only problem I have with the machine 
is that it's only an 8088 (really V20) processor, so it's sooooo slow.

To the original poster:  If you're looking for Zenith horror stories,
you may be hard pressed.  Pick just about any other manufacturer and I
could help you, but I've never had anything but great service from
Zenith.  (I also worked at a computer center that had 100+ 148'2 and
158's, and these were real workhorse machines too.  The IBM lab always
had about 30% of the machines down, but the Zenith lab was almost always
100% operating.)

Later,
Bob
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=- Bob Berry -=- PC-Guru's Inc.         ! rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu   -=-
-=- Teach them quick, before they think. ! 803-654-7623 || 803-656-2635 -=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

In article <90298.191725BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jeff Boyd) writes:

 
> Note however that the original posting seemed to focus on the vendor,
> not the equipment. 

BINGO!

How about:  

(1)  LOOOOOOOONG delays in obtaining upgrade/replacement parts.  I had to
     wait several months for a second serial port.  Don't tell me that I
     could buy a serial port from another vendor; ZDS has our state contract
     so they've got us by the short-and-curlies (i.e. we're forbidden by
     our state purchasing office from going elsewhere).

(2)  Exorbitant prices for said upgrade/replacement parts.  See e.g. several
     recent posts on the cost of replacing screens for laptops.

As mentioned by others the equipment is actually quite reliable.  The
documentation is also better than that provided by most other
vendors (though that certainly is damning with faint praise!)  
I've got a laptop that's used as part of my field equipment, and 
thus is sometimes used under adverse conditions.  Although it still 
works like new, I pray the screen never cracks.  

I think the main problem is with ZDS's business strategy.  They have been
very aggressive at securing exclusive university/government contracts.
While no on can fault them for having a successful sales organization,
the exclusive nature of these contracts tends to produce a phone-company
type of attitude (oops, even the telephone monopoly has now been broken
up...  :-)  ). 
________________________________________________________________________
Raymond W. Arritt                     | 
Assistant Professor                   |  This is just me.  If you want
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy        |  KU's opinion write to:
Univ. of Kansas                       |   Dr. Gene Budig
Lawrence, KS  66045                   |   Office of the Chancellor
arritt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu             |   University of Kansas            
arritt@ukanvax.bitnet                 |   Lawrence, KS  66045
                               

In article <90298.191725BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jeff Boyd) writes:
>
We have, at California State University, Bakersfield, had several 
hard disks go bad on one model of the 248 low profile computers.

The major complaints that I have with Zenith is that is is not
100 percent compatible.  I have a Zenith 386/16  and I purchased
a memory card for it.  It didn't work because the Zenith did not
refresh I Meg chips the way others did.  Some of my colleagues
ran DOS 3.3 with hard disk partitions greater than 32 Meg.  
Some software did not run correctly (PC Tools) because DOS
3.3 has maximum partition size of 32 MBytes.  My, and I 
believe many other, computer has  slushware whereby ROM is
moved to high RAM for increased speed.  Unfortunately, I have
heard that this interfers with some software (LOTUS version 3 ?)
and the slushware cannot be turned off.  These unexpected 
features cost  me and my colleagues a great deal of time.

As for reliability, I  cannot make a judgement  without 
a survey of thousands of computers.  We have had problems
with Zeniths, but we've also had problems with other 
computers.   I've found their service bad, but others 
didn't. Maybe I got a rotten apple.

Disclaimer: The views are my own and do not reflect anyone else's 
opinion .
  

>From article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, by bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N):
>> I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to
>> drop Zenith as its major computer vendor.  I am looking for actual
>> instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers.
>

Well, the ONLY Zenith Horror Stories that *I* can conceive of are:

	1)  Zenith sold ZDS to Groupe Bull

	2)  Zenith Data Systems *STOPPED* building the Z-100

Walt K.

In article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu> bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) writes:
>
>I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to
>drop Zenith as its major computer vendor.  I am looking for actual
>instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers.
>

Is this a personal vindeta?  Why do you dislike Zenith?  I have found them
to be both competant and responsive.  Make certain that you are attacking
the people responsible for any problems that you may have.  For example,
three years ago I had problems with a service place repairing a simple
monochrome monitor.  After two calls to Zenith I had a new monitor with
in one week and the service center no longer services Zenith products.

Now that Groupe Bull has taken over they seem to be getting even better.
To make a long story short, if you have a problem with a service center
you are best off changing your service center AND LETTING ZENITH KNOW.
They care a lot more than you may know.

At my previous University there was a problem with the on sight people
servicing the machines so the Student rep called his rep complained and
had the on sight service center changed.  The current service people
do an outstanding job.  currently at Oakland University they are so 
happy with the situation (I know these people and they are NOT easy
to please) they are purchasing another truck load of machines.

If you want me to do a comparison of happy to unhappy Zenith users just
let me know and I will summarize the results.

Andy (pitonyak@cis.ohio-state.edu)

In <11167@hubcap.clemson.edu> rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu (Robert W Berry) writes:

>wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) writes:

>>I've never been able to get EMS to work.

>I have 640k of EMS that works with no hitch.  Did you buy your board
>from Zenith.  (I've had both a Zenith board and an AST board, and both
>of them performed flawlessly.)

I have NO horror story either & have a Z-158 & a 386-16.

However, the 158 is not 100% compatible with all EMS cards - to get mine
to work, I had to 1) remove the last row of memory chips (512-768K) and use
the ones on the EMS card to fill in base memory; and 2) tell Word Perfect 5.1
that I had EMS 3.2 rather than the 4.0 the EMS vendor claimed.

Probelms were:
	1) there was a memory address conflict between the Zenith chips in the
last bank and the EMS card
	2) The EMS vendor was selling an EMS 4.0 driver that did not actually
meet the 4.0 specs.

	Chad PRice
	price@fergvax.unl.edu

In article <1990Oct25.135059.16097@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> fong@ksuvax1 (Eric Fong) writes:
>In article <1131@cameron.egr.duke.edu> js@dukee.egr.duke.edu (Jeffrey A. Shorey) writes:
>>Why do you want to drop Zenith?  My family has had 6 Heath/Zenith computers
>>and _never_ had a stitch of trouble with them (except for the power supply
>>connections on the H89).  We have 2 Z-100s that have been going for 7 or 8
>>years now.  We have a 151 that is still going, and two 158s.  The documentation
>>is infinitely superior to anything anybody else gives you with their computers
>>(as far as I know).  How can you have horror stories if you never have to talk
>>to the vendor, the product is so well designed?
>>
>>- Jeff Shorey
>
>I agreed, I have had 2 Zenith computers so far, one Z-158, and got a Z-248
>just this year.  The 158 might be slow, but very reliable (I bought it in
>1985!).  I also agree on the documentation, I have seen manuals from other
>vendors, they are horrible.  There might be horror story to tell about other
>computer, but not the ones from Zenith.
>
>--Eric Fong

   Zenith's older equipment (pre pc-clone) was excellent, but there "clones"
leave a bit to be desired.

   It all depends on your application.  in some cases they're great, but
when you try to do some things they bomb.  one problem is that some commercial
software won't work on them, you need to get a zenith-specific version.
in my opinion, that's a design flaw.

   Perhaps worse, recently zenith has seemed to forgotten the difference
between a prototype and a production item.  and lord help you if you get
stuck with one of the early production machines, as zenith isn't the
most cooperative company to deal with when it comes to getting replacements
for early parts that fail prematurely or don't work like they should.

 
  From a happy z89 owner, who wants a z100, but not a z100pc...
 
-- 
fzsitvay@techbook.COM - but don't quote me on that....

American Oil Company motto - Bend over, We'll pump!!!

From article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, by bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N):
> I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to
> drop Zenith as its major computer vendor.  I am looking for actual
> instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers.

I have found that my problems (and those of others here at NDSU) have
been caused by our vendor blaming Zenith for their own mistakes.  All
of the helpful input here on the net suggests that Zenith is a good
source for student equipment, as long as it is through a reputable
vendor.

Thank you very much,

Todd M. Bezenek
--                                                          --=--+--=--
Todd Michael Bezenek                                            /
                                            Amateur      --=---+---=--
  Internet:  bezenek@plains.nodak.edu       Radio             /|
  UUCP:      uunet!plains!bezenek           Station   ---=---+---=---
  Bitnet:    bezenek@plains                 KO0N               |

In article <1990Oct27.223708.12974@techbook.com>, fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes:

  [omission]

>    Zenith's older equipment (pre pc-clone) was excellent, but there "clones"
> leave a bit to be desired.
> 
>    It all depends on your application.  in some cases they're great, but
> when you try to do some things they bomb.  one problem is that some commercial
> software won't work on them, you need to get a zenith-specific version.
> in my opinion, that's a design flaw.

What software problems have you had with ZDS pc clones?  I use ZDS
SupersPort, SupersPort 286, 386SX and 386-25.  I have used Novell
Netware 286, WordPerfect, Harvard Graphics, Lotus 1-2-3, Allways,
Lotus Agenda, GrandView, Quattro, Quattro Pro, QuickBasic, QuickC,
Generic CADD, askSam, Kermit, Bitcom, SAS PC, dBase III+, MS Windows
and others without suffering any incompatibility.

  [omission]

>   From a happy z89 owner, who wants a z100, but not a z100pc...

Is the software incompatibility a problem of the z100pc?  Does ZDS
still sell this machine?


-- 
Richard L Shelby       Dept of Health Services       Univ of Kentucky
rshelby@ms.uky.edu  rshelby@ukma.BITNET  {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!rshelby

            You're never too old to have a happy childhood.

others said:

>>    Zenith's older equipment (pre pc-clone) was excellent, but there "clones"
>> leave a bit to be desired.
{}
>> one problem is that some commercial
>> software won't work on them, you need to get a zenith-specific version.

>What software problems have you had with ZDS pc clones?  

When I at last got a CPU card that would work with my VGA card,
Superkey wouldn't. I called Borland -- once I mentioned Z-158, I was
told I had to buy an "upgrade" to work with it.

For those who asked, I first tried EMS with an Amnesia board. It would
not run @ 8 mhz, but would at 4.7. After 2 or three boards went back
and forth, I got a designer at Xebec who said:
	Z-158? Forget it!
and went on to explain its bus timing problems.  After that, I called
other suppliers before sending money. They all gave me the same answer,
as did Intel when I asked about an Above Board.

Note that I was a 'regular' customer -- I had no campus rep, only the
Zenith store, to deal with.
-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu 
& no one will talk to a host that's close............(305) 255-RTFM
Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335
is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335

In article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu> bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) writes:
>
>I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to
>drop Zenith as its major computer vendor.  I am looking for actual
>instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers.

Todd - Asking for a slanted view from the net is not a good way to build
       a foundation to base your Universities purchasing decisions on.
       Why not ask for an accross the board view to get a really objective
       viewpoint.                             

Just my $.02 worth.

--
    Kent Phelps         | Internet:  kent@sun.ufnet.ufl.edu
University of Florida   |              kent@digital.ufl.edu
Digital Design Facility |                Phone:904-392-2464
*****             Just say  Yo !                      *****

In article <1990Oct26.041643.28052@nas.nasa.gov>, klee@nas.nasa.gov
(King M. Lee) writes:
|>In article <90298.191725BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA
(Jeff Boyd) writes:
|>>
|>We have, at California State University, Bakersfield, had several 
|>hard disks go bad on one model of the 248 low profile computers.
|>
|>The major complaints that I have with Zenith is that is is not
|>100 percent compatible.  I have a Zenith 386/16  and I purchased
|>a memory card for it.  It didn't work because the Zenith did not
|>refresh I Meg chips the way others did.  Some of my colleagues
|>ran DOS 3.3 with hard disk partitions greater than 32 Meg.  
|>Some software did not run correctly (PC Tools) because DOS
|>3.3 has maximum partition size of 32 MBytes.  My, and I 
|>believe many other, computer has  slushware whereby ROM is
|>moved to high RAM for increased speed.  Unfortunately, I have
|>heard that this interfers with some software (LOTUS version 3 ?)
|>and the slushware cannot be turned off.  These unexpected 
|>features cost  me and my colleagues a great deal of time.
|>

Although I don't know about the rest of the stuff, PC-Tools version 5.5
or 6 will now work with the >32 Meg partitions on DOS 3.3+ or DOS 4.01. 
That was a problem with PC-Tools being written before big partitions
came into existence.  Since PC-Tools directly modifies the disk, it
wouldn't work once they changed the format of the boot sectors in order
to use big disks.  Norton Utilties had the same problem until they came
out with version 4.5.

Kelley Cook
rcook@darwin.cc.nd.edu