🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <3234@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Well, I asked "what in the real world are pull-down menus a metaphor for?".
>[...]
>The desktop metaphor is just an analogy. Don't take it too seriously.

Huh? [:-)]  Metaphors, by definition, have to be a metaphor *for* something.
Similarly with analogies (it has to be an analogy *of* something).  The
desktop metaphor sure isn't a true representation of any desktop I've seen,
but then it does seem more useful the way it is.

Maybe it should be the "desktop" metaphor.
--
Frank Wales, Systems Manager,        [frank@zen.co.uk<->mcvax!zen.co.uk!frank]
Zengrange Ltd., Greenfield Rd., Leeds, ENGLAND, LS9 8DB. (+44) 532 489048 x217 

In article <3234@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Well, I asked "what in the real world are pull-down menus a metaphor for?". The
>replies I've received are entertaining, if not definitive.

They represent Postit(tm) notes stuck on your rolltop desk.


-don perley

In article <3234@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:

>The desktop metaphor is just an analogy. Don't take it too seriously.

Yes indeed.  The best thing about the desktop metaphor is how very little
it resembles a desktop.

David Casseres

In article <395@internal.Apple.COM> casseres@Apple.COM (David Casseres) writes:
)Yes indeed.  The best thing about the desktop metaphor is how very little
)it resembles a desktop.
)
)David Casseres

Even though I don't have my copy of "The Zen of Programming" with me I feel
compelled to paraphrase ...

  "The Master led the student to a room with a only a desk in it.  On the
   desk was a computer which displayed metaphorical desktop.

   `Can you tell the difference between the two desktops?' the Master asked.

   `Yes, Master, one of the desktops doesn't have a computer on it.'

   `No, foolish student, Neither desktop has a computer on it.'"

   The student was suddenly enlightened.


	jimm
-- 
Jim Mackraz, I and I Computing	   	"Like you said when we crawled down
{cbmvax,well,oliveb}!amiga!jimm          from the trees: We're in transition."
							- Gang of Four
Opinions are my own.  Comments are not to be taken as Commodore official policy.

In article <12907@steinmetz.ge.com> perley@trub.steinmetz.ge.com (Donald P Perley) writes:
>In article <3234@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>Well, I asked "what in the real world are pull-down menus a metaphor for?". The
>>replies I've received are entertaining, if not definitive.
>They represent Postit(tm) notes stuck on your rolltop desk.


Nope ...

you don't use Postit notes for selecting things that can be done in
some environment.



Pull down menu's represent ... control knob type things on mechanical
devices????
-- 
<-- David Herron; an MMDF guy                              <david@ms.uky.edu>
<-- ska: David le casse\*'      {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<-- Now I know how Zonker felt when he graduated ...
<--          Stop!  Wait!  I didn't mean to!

In article <3234@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Well, I asked "what in the real world are pull-down menus a metaphor for?".

In article <1472@zen.UUCP> frank@zen.co.uk (Frank Wales) writes:
> The
>desktop metaphor sure isn't a true representation of any desktop I've seen,
>but then it does seem more useful the way it is.

  To address the original question, I always thought drop-down/pull-down/etc.
menus were a metaphor for actions you do on a desktop.

  Suppose you click on a file, then go to your respective menu and choose
"Show Info". Isn't this equvalent to grabbing a sheath of papers, then looking
at them to see what they're about?

  Okay, so the menu--action metaphor is a lot closer to the menu's intended
function; But since when do metaphors have to be abstract?

						--R.J.
						B-)

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Disclaimer: These are my views, and mine alone.
                                                             # ## #
  Mailing address: Beats me, just reply to this message      # ## #
                    (rjung@nunki.usc.edu?)                  ## ## ##
                                                         ####  ##  ####

In article <10867@s.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) writes:
[regarding pull-down menus]
>>They represent Postit(tm) notes stuck on your rolltop desk.
>Pull down menu's represent ... control knob type things on mechanical
>devices????

No, pull down menus represent Venetian blinds or pull down maps like
they had in grade school. It's the natural way to make your computer
selections...

Seriously, I'd like to see a more configurable windowing environment.
For example, through the use of a configuration, you could specify
positioning and function of depth gadgets, resizing gadgets, window
activation, scroll bars, etc. Sort of like a flexible window manager
like you can get for X-windows.

Thus, I could emulate a Mac, Sun, Amiga+dmouse, or what-have-you
environments.

Wouldn't that annoy Apple? Give the users the tools to build their own
Mac-like interface if they want. There'd be nothing they could do.

Sean
-- 
***  Sean Casey                        sean@ms.uky.edu,  sean@ukma.bitnet
***  Who sometimes never learns.       {backbone site|rutgers|uunet}!ukma!sean
***  U of K, Lexington Kentucky, USA  ..where Christian movies are banned.
***  ``There's only TWO THINGS come out of Oklahoma...''

In article <10867@s.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) writes:
>
>you don't use Postit notes for selecting things that can be done in
>some environment.
>
>Pull down menu's represent ... control knob type things on mechanical
>devices????

	??  well, I'll jump into this with my two cents...I'll
try to make them good ones though.  For me, Pull Down Menus are like
main headings in an outline - you have major classifications/headings
at the top of the hierarchy, first level headings, and sometimes second
level headings (walking menus in Sunview, pull right menus on the Mac, etc.).
The whole point is to hide detail, but to give enough hints in the
top levels so the user has a good clue that they're heading in the right
direction when searching for an item (positive feedback, if you will).
As long as I'm writing:  I'd like to see menuing systems more like the
Info reader in Gnu Emacs - there are some situations where it makes
sense to have a menu item in two or more places; also, the users should
be able to redefine their menus.  I'm not talking about specific systems,
just a general direction that I know I'd find more convenient to use.

				dan
-- 
    /na/usa/ca/marin/SanRafael/94903/4000CivicCtrDr/IslandGraphics/DanSmith
 daniel@island.uu.net  unicom!daniel@pacbell.com  {lll-crg,apple}!well!dansmith
 ph: +1 415 332 FAST(h) 491 1000(w) 491 0402(Fax)  d: Island's coffee is laced
    my mind likes unix, my hands guitar, my stomach pizza, and my feet skis

In article <10867@s.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) writes:
>In article <12907@steinmetz.ge.com> perley@trub.steinmetz.ge.com (Donald P Perley) writes:
>>In article <3234@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>>Well, I asked "what in the real world are pull-down menus a metaphor for?". The
>>>replies I've received are entertaining, if not definitive.
>
>Pull down menu's represent ... control knob type things on mechanical
>devices????

	No, I've got it: they represent a series of infrared remotes hanging
above your head.  Just pull one down and use it....  :-) :-)

-- 
Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup

In article <3234@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Well, I asked "what in the real world are pull-down menus a metaphor for?".

Well, how about this ...

It's not a desktop -- it's a sorcerer's workshop.  The menus are the little
bags of magic powder that the wizard keeps in bigger bags.  Pulling down
a menu is opening the bag to see what little bags are inside.  Submenus are
bags within bags.  Selecting an item is taking a pinch of the powder and
sprinkling it on the item currently selected in the workshop.

So to send objects to alternate dimensions, you first "select" the object
and place it on the workbench.  Then you open the "File" bag and take out
a pinch of the "Delete" powder.  You mutter something and sprinkle it on
the selected item.  Then you mutter something less savory as the powder
does something you didn't expect.

The problem is that the only way to tell what these mysteriously labeled
powders do is to try them, and if you get the incantation wrong, you can
send yourself into alternate dimensions.  You wonder why people who
supposedly want to make computers easier to use would select such a
difficult metaphor.

;-)
-- 
		Stuart Ferguson		(shf@well.UUCP)
		Action by HAVOC

In article <2308@nunki.usc.edu>, rjung@castor.usc.edu (Robert  allen Jung) writes:
>   To address the original question, I always thought drop-down/pull-down/etc.
> menus were a metaphor for actions you do on a desktop.
> 
>   Suppose you click on a file, then go to your respective menu and choose
> "Show Info". Isn't this equvalent to grabbing a sheath of papers, then looking
> at them to see what they're about?

Can menus be replaced with something closer to the actions they
are a metaphor for?  When I want to edit a document I pick up a
pencil and put it to paper.  The metaphorical desktop could have a
pencil which could be grabbed by the pointer(ala MacPaint).
Clicking this pencil onto a file would then invoke the editor.
"Show Info" could be done with a magnifying glass giving you a
closer look at the file.   Or how about having a Xerox(tm) machine
on your desk which when fed a file spits out a duplicate?  Taken to
an extreme this could get really annoying.

> 						--R.J.
> 						B-)
> 
>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Disclaimer: These are my views, and mine alone.
>                                                              # ## #
>   Mailing address: Beats me, just reply to this message      # ## #
>                     (rjung@nunki.usc.edu?)                  ## ## ##
>                                                          ####  ##  ####

Stephen Coy
uw-beaver!ssc-vax!coy

In article <5666@cbmvax.UUCP> jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) writes:
>	No, I've got it: they represent a series of infrared remotes hanging
>above your head.  Just pull one down and use it....  :-) :-)
>
>Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup

Gods but I wish that IR remotes were half as handy to use as a pull
down menu. (Ooops.. agh... no, not the garage door opener!)
 
I generally likened them to the useful little gadgets I had tucked away
in the drawers and slots on the top of the desk, the IR remotes being
to my left.. (So, what is a pop-up menu?)

--Scanner

------- scanner@itsgw.rpi.edu
------- userf0f3@rpitsmts.bitnet

In article <10870@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms (Sean Casey) writes:
>[regarding pull-down menus]
>>>They represent Postit(tm) notes stuck on your rolltop desk.
>>Pull down menu's represent ... control knob type things on mechanical
>>devices????
>
>No, pull down menus represent Venetian blinds or pull down maps like
>they had in grade school. It's the natural way to make your computer
>selections...

Close but no cigar.  Pull down menus, IMHO, represent the small panels
or doors that hide seldom used controls on equipment.  Thus they
represent something on your TV, not your desktop.  The motivation is
consistent: the controls are there when you need them, and the rest of
the time the display doesn't look so `busy'.

-- Jon "now where's the tuning eye" Krueger
-- 

In article <10870@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes:
>Wouldn't that annoy Apple? Give the users the tools to build their own
>Mac-like interface if they want. There'd be nothing they could do.
>
	Wanna bet?

	HP's windowing environment (sorry, forget the name) was completely
configurable by the user.  The default was not too similar to the Mac
"desktop".  Someone at Apple got a hold of one of these, fiddled with it for
a while, and ended up with something that looked pretty close to the Mac
"desktop".

	Apple sued HP and MicroSoft because of it.  Ta da.

	I wish people would start innovating again...

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape	INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
 \_ -_		Recumbent Bikes:	UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac
O----^o	      The Only Way To Fly.	      hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack")
"Work FOR?  I don't work FOR anybody!  I'm just having fun."  -- The Doctor

   Perhaps they are the menus we pull down at lunch time so that everyone
   can order Chinese.

In article <2470@ssc-vax.UUCP> coy@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stephen B Coy) writes:
>Can menus be replaced with something closer to the actions they
>are a metaphor for?  When I want to edit a document I pick up a
>pencil and put it to paper.  The metaphorical desktop could have a
>pencil which could be grabbed by the pointer(ala MacPaint).
>Clicking this pencil onto a file would then invoke the editor.
>"Show Info" could be done with a magnifying glass giving you a
>closer look at the file.   Or how about having a Xerox(tm) machine
>on your desk which when fed a file spits out a duplicate?  Taken to
>an extreme this could get really annoying.
This has actually been done.  I think it is called 'active agents' or something
like that.  For example, instead of dragging a file into a trashcan, you
would drag an eraser onto a file.  Sort of like the difference between
postfix and prefix notation...  I don't know which I like better, maybe it
would be best if both ways of dealing with things were available.

	Hans-Martin

inews fodder
inews fodder
inews fodder
inews fodder
inews fodder
inews fodder
-- 
Hans-Martin Mosner		| Don't tell Borland about Smalltalk - |
hmm@unido.{uucp,bitnet}		| they might invent Turbo Smalltalk !  |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Turbo Smalltalk may already be a trademark of Borland...

In article <12@netserv2.its.rpi.edu> scanner@netserv2.UUCP (Eric "Scanner" Luce) writes:
>In article <5666@cbmvax.UUCP> jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) writes:
>>	No, I've got it: they represent a series of infrared remotes hanging
>>above your head.  Just pull one down and use it....  :-) :-)
> 
>I generally likened them to the useful little gadgets I had tucked away
>in the drawers and slots on the top of the desk, the IR remotes being
>to my left.. (So, what is a pop-up menu?)
>
>--Scanner

Why, a pop-up menu is pulling an IR remote from thin air, of course.

Actually, the sick thing is that some modern (and pretty cheap) VCRs have
"help" keys on their remotes, on-screen help, and menus.  That's it, pull-down
menus are a metaphor for VCR menus run by IR remote!  :-) :-)

-- 
Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup

Using linear pull down menus is like having to climb ladders to get
where you're going.  There's a more natural metaphore for round pie
menus, though.  I think of pie menus as rooms with doors leading off
in different directions.  Navigating a tree of nested pie menus is
like running around a building or an adventure game.  You can learn
how to get to a certian selection, by remembering a spatial path from
room to room.  Then you just move the mouse along that path, clicking
through each door, and you're there.  

	-Don

In article <550@island.uu.net> daniel@island.uu.net (Dan "yes that is my real name" Smith) writes:
[...]
>As long as I'm writing:  I'd like to see menuing systems more like the
>Info reader in Gnu Emacs - there are some situations where it makes
>sense to have a menu item in two or more places; also, the users should
>be able to redefine their menus.  I'm not talking about specific systems,
>just a general direction that I know I'd find more convenient to use.
>
>				dan

I did something along those lines for the UniPress's Emacs NeWS
interface (NeMACS).  I wrote a menu compiler that lets you create
popup menus for NeWS by describing them in Emacs INFO nodes. Each node
describes one menu. Each selection is specified by one line of text.
Submenus are represented as links to other INFO nodes. Menu selections
are pseudo-links that describe the action of a menu item.  Actions
include things like calling a PostScript function, typing in a string,
calling an Emacs functions, popping up a message, etc. The menu
compiler translates the info nodes into PostScript code for NeWS, and
MLisp code that interfaces them to Emacs.  The PostScript is loaded
into NeWS to define popup menus that run independantly in the window
server.

The menu description language has the same syntax as INFO menus, so a
selection that invokes a submenu is also an INFO link to the node
describing that submenu, and a selection that invokes an action is
just a link to a fake node whose name is the action. The menu compiler
traverses the tree of nodes, so the tree of popup menus it creates
reflects the structure of the INFO nodes. Users can edit the info
nodes, and recompile and reload them on the fly to customize their
menus. They can make popup menus for NeWS and interface them to Emacs
without ever having to touch or even look at the PostScript and MLisp
code produced by the compiler.

I wrote it while I was working for UniPress on the Emacs NeWS
interface, last summer, and it comes with Emacs version 2.20. Yes,
it's a supported commercial product, but no, this isn't a commercial
for it.  I'd certianly like to hear about other peoples' experiences
with menu description languages.

	-Don

In article <10320@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes:
<In article <10870@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes:
<>Wouldn't that annoy Apple? Give the users the tools to build their own
<>Mac-like interface if they want. There'd be nothing they could do.
<>
<	Wanna bet?
<
<	HP's windowing environment (sorry, forget the name) was completely
<configurable by the user.  The default was not too similar to the Mac
<"desktop".  Someone at Apple got a hold of one of these, fiddled with it for
<a while, and ended up with something that looked pretty close to the Mac
<"desktop".
<
<	Apple sued HP and MicroSoft because of it.  Ta da.
<
<	I wish people would start innovating again...
<
Did you see the letter in MacWorld (Feb) regarding fruit? Don Casey of 
Dynatron asked Apple's legal department if it would be OK to use the logo
Flying Apple. "They faxed me a reply within two hours saying that they
will sue anyone who uses any piece of fruit as a logo for a 'computer
or computer peripheral device.'"

Shirley Kehr

I just asked a non-expert-computer-user who happens to own a Mac

The view he eventually came up with is something like the "See Also"
tags that are in entries in Encyclopedia's.



But then he's been playing with Hype-Card lately.
-- 
<-- David Herron; an MMDF guy                              <david@ms.uky.edu>
<-- ska: David le casse\*'      {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<-- Now I know how Zonker felt when he graduated ...
<--          Stop!  Wait!  I didn't mean to!

In article <849@laura.UUCP> hmm@laura.UUCP (Hans-Martin Mosner) writes:
>This has actually been done.  I think it is called 'active agents' or something
>like that.  For example, instead of dragging a file into a trashcan, you
>would drag an eraser onto a file.

How about an icon of a nuke.  You drag it over and drop it on your file
and you get a little dissolving mushroom shaped cloud...  :-)

-Fred
-- 
# Fred Fish, 1835 E. Belmont Drive, Tempe, AZ 85284,  USA
# asuvax!nud!estinc!fnf

In article <2470@ssc-vax.UUCP>, coy@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stephen B Coy) writes:
> Can menus be replaced with something closer to the actions they
> are a metaphor for?  When I want to edit a document I pick up a
> pencil and put it to paper.  ...

Have a look at the original mouse-menus-icons user interface... the Xerox
Star. It worked much like this. To print a file you dropped it in the
printer icon, etc... this feature (a cool one) only survives in the Trashcan.

Maybe in browser 3.0... :->.
-- 
Peter "Have you hugged your wolf today" da Silva  `-_-'  Hackercorp.
...texbell!sugar!peter, or peter@sugar.uu.net      'U`

In article: <13@estinc.UUCP>
	fnf@estinc.UUCP (Fred Fish) writes:
>In article <849@laura.UUCP> hmm@laura.UUCP (Hans-Martin Mosner) writes:
>>This has actually been done.  I think it is called 'active agents' or something
>>like that.  For example, instead of dragging a file into a trashcan, you
>>would drag an eraser onto a file.
>
>How about an icon of a nuke.  You drag it over and drop it on your file
>and you get a little dissolving mushroom shaped cloud...  :-)
Might that not be a bit of overkill? What if the blast wipes out a nearby
file too? And then there is the fallout.... ... .. .

(-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) -: :-) (-: :-)

                                        R. Tim Coslet

Usenet: R_Tim_Coslet@cup.portal.com

In article <15453@mimsy.UUCP> don@brillig.umd.edu.UUCP (Don Hopkins) writes:
>In article <550@island.uu.net> daniel@island.uu.net (Dan "yes that is my real name" Smith) writes:
>[...]
>>As long as I'm writing:  I'd like to see menuing systems more like the
>>Info reader in Gnu Emacs - there are some situations where it makes
>>sense to have a menu item in two or more places; also, the users should
>>be able to redefine their menus.  I'm not talking about specific systems,
>>just a general direction that I know I'd find more convenient to use.
>>
>>				dan
>
>I did something along those lines for the UniPress's Emacs NeWS
>interface (NeMACS).  I wrote a menu compiler that lets you create
>popup menus for NeWS by describing them in Emacs INFO nodes.  I'd certianly
>like to hear about other peoples' experiences with menu description languages.

My tooltool software lets you build relatively complex user interfaces using
English-like commands and runs under SunView.  Menus are one of the interface
elements it lets you manipulate.  I know of at least one person who was using
tooltool to build alternate sets of menus to evaluate the speed with which
users could navigate the menu system.  Tooltool lets you redefine and rebuild
an interface in just minutes, without recompilation.

Tooltool is in the public domain, and is now up to version 2.0.  It is
available via anonymous ftp from trantor.harris-atd.com.  If you can't
ftp, send me mail and I'll try to get you a copy.


Chuck Musciano
Advanced Technology Department
Harris Corporation
(407) 727-6131
ARPA: chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com

In article <10320@well.UUCP> you write:
>
>	I wish people would start innovating again...
>

Golly, Leo,

It's sad to say, but the only way companies are going to start innovating
again is if everyone else is doing it!  :-)

>_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
>Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape	INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
> \_ -_		Recumbent Bikes:	UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac
>O----^o	   The Only Way To Fly.	      hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack")
>"Work FOR?  I don't work FOR anybody!  I'm just having fun."  -- The Doctor
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     __________   |           "You can lead a horse to water
    /         /_  |                   but you can't
   /         / /                   change a horse's ass!"
  /   From the desk of:  ---------------------------------------------------- 
 /________ / /       Jeffrey Jay Clesius,   Raytheon Submarine Signal Division
  /_________/     |  1847 West Main Road,   Mail Stop 188
                  |  Portsmouth, RI         (401) 847-8000 (X4015)
 -----------------+----------------------------------------------------------
{ allegra | gatech | mirror | raybed2 } ----\ 
{ linus   | ihnp4  | uiucdcs } -------------->!rayssd!jxc   jxc@rayssd.ray.com
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <3284@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>In article <2470@ssc-vax.UUCP>, coy@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stephen B Coy) writes:
>> Can menus be replaced with something closer to the actions they
>> are a metaphor for?...
>Have a look at the original mouse-menus-icons user interface... the Xerox
>Star. It worked much like this. To print a file you dropped it in the
>printer icon, etc... this feature (a cool one) only survives in the Trashcan.
>
Don't all desktops do this? ON MY COMMODORE 64 (at home) with the GEOS operating
system that is exactly how you print files. . . and it works for any 
printing application... (think its about time to bring my '64 back to work to
replace this junky PC clone... unless I get a SUN...)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We know only the strong will survive, But the meek will inherit.
 So if you've got a coat of arms, oh friend, I suggest we wear it."
					John Mellencamp.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  anderson@c10sd3.StPaul.NCR.COM |UUCP: {rosevax, crash}!orbit!pnet51!jpa
     Joel Peter Anderson         |ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!jpa@nosc.mil
  NCR Comten / Software engineer |INET: jpa@pnet51.cts.com  QLINK: JPA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <13579@cup.portal.com> R_Tim_Coslet@cup.portal.com writes:
>In article: <13@estinc.UUCP> fnf@estinc.UUCP (Fred Fish) writes:
>>
>>How about an icon of a nuke.  You drag it over and drop it on your file
>>and you get a little dissolving mushroom shaped cloud...  :-)
>
>Might that not be a bit of overkill? What if the blast wipes out a nearby
>file too? And then there is the fallout.... ... .. .

The fallout is already here...check the coverage of that Newsgroups line.

				--Blair
				  "I don't want this stuff upwind of ME...!"

In article <10867@s.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) writes:
>
>you don't use Postit notes for selecting things that can be done in
>some environment.
>
>Pull down menu's represent ... control knob type things on mechanical
>devices????

More likely activation buttons (ie. "PLAY" on your favourite CD/Tape).
The pull down menus I use usually only allow selection of some
action, not setting of running attributes which is usually done through
dialogue boxes.

As a replacement for the "desktop" metaphor why not use a stereo component
system?? Take a look at the embedded ideas:

1) Dual State switches:
 ON/OFF, Loudness,...usually with a build-in feedback mechanism (LED).

2) Multiple Choice: 
 They're CALLED "Radio Buttons" fer goshsake. A la your (pre '80's :-))
 car radio.

3) Range Selection: 
 Volume Controls, Tuners. These come in a variety of nice feedback
 mechanisms (Digital, Scale...).  Also, there are a number of different
 input techniques supported (rotating Knob, Slider, numerical entry...).

4) Dynamic Feedback:
 V.U. meters....again with a number of well defined feedback machanisms.
 (real "Meters", LED's...)

5) Data Input:
 Tapes (Read/Write) and CD's/Records (Read/Only) sometimes with automatic
 copy and multiple input sources. Even includes EXTERNAL (ie. Network)
 input via the RADIO when "tuned" to an available channel (Node).

6) Data Output:
 To stretch things a bit (if I haven't already :-)) you could imagine a
 screen (video monitor) on which output data can be displayed and onto
 which each component can carry on dialogues with the user.

   When using a physical metaphor of this type it is important to examine
why the "look and feel" of your favourite stereo is as it is. There are
experts in Physical User Interfaces (called "Industrial Designers", I 
think) who have had MANY (>100) years to refine their techniques. Surely
some of this info is useful.

   Perhaps each APPLICATION should come with it's own "Hardware Interface"
complete with meters, dials, buttons... "look and Feeling" like the actual
Physical items. Some work has been done in this area but I don't have any
references (e-mail anyone ??).


-- 
Eric (Pixel Pusher) Moffatt - Cognos Incorporated: 3755 Riverside Drive
Voice: (613)738-1440 (Research) FAX: (613)738-0002 P.O. Box 9707
uucp: uunet!mitel!sce!cognos!emoffatt              Ottawa, Ontario,
arpa/internet: emoffatt%cognos.uucp@uunet.uu.net   CANADA  K1G 3Z4

In article <15452@mimsy.UUCP> don@brillig.umd.edu.UUCP (Don Hopkins) writes:
>Using linear pull down menus is like having to climb ladders to get
>where you're going.  There's a more natural metaphore for round pie
>menus, though.  I think of pie menus as rooms with doors leading off
>in different directions.  Navigating a tree of nested pie menus is
>like running around a building or an adventure game.  You can learn
>how to get to a certian selection, by remembering a spatial path from
>room to room.  Then you just move the mouse along that path, clicking
>through each door, and you're there.  
>
>	-Don

Actually, this has been done by XEROX.  It's called ROOMS, I think.
I've never actually seen it, but the guy who wrote it (I forget his name) was
up here, at the U of Toronto to give a talk on it.  He showed some 35mm slides
and it looks pretty cool.

From what I understand, it's available only on the Interlisp machine as of a
few months ago with plans on porting it to SUN workstations (and now maybe even
NeXT?).

It is almost exactly what Don wants to see in menus.  You go from room to room,
where each room has a different "desktop".  Actually, each room has a different
environment:  different wallpaper, even!

When you want to take stuff from your graphics room to your wordprocessing room,
you hold down a certain key.

To move from room to room, you click on the appropriate door.  Each room leads
to zero or more rooms, and a "backdoor" to get you back to the room where you
came from.

The system can also create a map, I think, showing all the rooms and how they're
connected.

It's much more impressive and natural than the Mac desktop, and probably even
nextstep (I've never used nextstep, only seen a demo at the university's
computer shop).

--Raj

-- 
 _____________________________________________________________________________
| Disclaimer:  I'm just an undergrad.                                         |
| All views and opinions are therefore my own.                                |
|                                                                             |
| Rajiv Partha Sarathy                   sarathy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca         |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|

> 
> Actually, this has been done by XEROX.  It's called ROOMS, I think.
> I've never actually seen it, but the guy who wrote it (I forget his name) was
> up here, at the U of Toronto to give a talk on it.  He showed some 35mm slides
> and it looks pretty cool.
> 
> --Raj

%A S.K. Card
%A D.A. Henderson
%T A Multiple Virtual-Workspace Interface to Support User Task
Switching
%B CHI'87 Conf on Human Factors in Com Syst, Toronto
%I ACM/SIGCHI
%D Apr 6-9, 1987

%A D.A. Henderson
%A S.K. Card
%T Rooms: The Use of Multiple Virtual Workspaces to Reduce Space
Contention in a Window-Based Graphical User Interface
%J ACM TOG
%V 5
%N 3
%D July, 1986
%P 211-243

>>Using linear pull down menus is like having to climb ladders to get
>>where you're going.  There's a more natural metaphore for round pie
>>menus, though.  I think of pie menus as rooms with doors leading off
>>in different directions.  
>>[...]
>>	-Don

>Actually, this has been done by XEROX.  It's called ROOMS, I think.
>I've never actually seen it, but the guy who wrote it (I forget his name) was
>up here, at the U of Toronto to give a talk on it.  He showed some 35mm slides
>and it looks pretty cool. 
>[...]
>It is almost exactly what Don wants to see in menus.  You go from
>room to room, where each room has a different "desktop".  Actually,
>each room has a different environment: different wallpaper, even!
>[...]
>--Raj

I've heard about Rooms, and I like the idea a lot. But what I'm
talking about is pie menus. i.e. not full screen desktop layouts, but
circular pop-up menus, as a metaphore for rooms. I think that the two
metaphores are well matched and could be combined synergistically.

In the pie menu "room" metaphore, a "room" is a menu, and a "door" is
a menu item.

You point to an object on the screen and click to pop up a pie menu of
items relating to that object.

The pie menu pops up with the cursor in the middle of the room, with
the doors arranged in a circle around the cursor, all leading off in
different directions.

You go through a door by moving the cursor in its direction and
clicking. Going through a door either completes the selection, causing
some action to be performed on the object, or leads you to another
room, popping up another pie submenu.

The important difference between pop-up pie menus and pull-down linear
menus is that pie menus are based on direction, and linear menus are
based on distance. With pie menus, the cursor motion necessary to make
a selection is always small, and the area of the wedge shaped
selection targets is large. You can indicate a direction without
looking at the screen, and you get more and more angular precision as
you move the cursor out further. Furthermore, they're non-proprietary,
so nobody will sue you for implementing them!

Here are a couple of references to work we've done with pie menus. If
you use the NeWS window system, I'd be glad to send you my public
domain implementation of pie menus, and a window manager designed to
use them efficiently, written in object oriented PostScript.

	-Don

Directional Selection is Easy as Pie Menus!
  By Don Hopkins
  ;login: The USENIX Association Newsletter
  Volume 12, Number 5; September/October 1987; Page 31
  Summary of the Work-in-Progress talk given at the 1987 Summer
  Usenix Conference in Phoenix.

A Comparative Analysis of Pie Menu Performance
  By Jack Callahan, Don Hopkins, Mark Weiser, and Ben Shneiderman
  Proc. CHI'88 conference, Washington D.C.: available from ACM, NY.

In article <15562@mimsy.UUCP> don@brillig.umd.edu.UUCP (Don Hopkins) writes:
>>>Using linear pull down menus is like having to climb ladders to get
>>>where you're going.  There's a more natural metaphore for round pie
>>>menus, though.  I think of pie menus as rooms with doors leading off
>>>in different directions.  
>>>[...]
>>>	-Don
>
>>Actually, this has been done by XEROX.  It's called ROOMS, I think.
>>I've never actually seen it, but the guy who wrote it (I forget his name) was

I was walking up the stairs from the Xerox room the other day; it's
something I do eight or twelve times a day, now that the li'l stoonts
need lots of handouts for their li'l edification.

Ennyhoo (Is there _anyone_ more pleased that Pogo is back in the papers
than me?), I was flipping my keys for the eight or twelfth time that day,
and I realized:

	Pulldown menus are a ring of keys.

	You pull them out of your pocket,
	and select the the one that opens
	your next venue, or activates
	your next tool.

I need a carrot.

				--Blair
				  "Munch, Munch."

In article <1954@buengc.BU.EDU> bph@buengc.bu.edu (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
>Ennyhoo (Is there _anyone_ more pleased that Pogo is back in the papers
>than me?), 

I dunno, man, I can't relate to Pogo. Maybe I'm too young, or something.

Now, Bloom County, *that* I can relate to.


-- 
Eric Kennedy
ejkst@cisunx.UUCP

I guess the discussion of alternate desktop metaphors (or perhaps I
should just say "alternate metaphors") leads to the rhetorical
question... is NeXT sufficiently modular that we can port the
interface of our choosing to it?

The Xerox ROOMS metaphor sounds pretty cool (Don Hopkins first
described his ideas to me for an alternate menuing interface a couple
years ago and were probably independent of Xerox).






-- 

John T. Nelson			UUCP: sun!sundc!potomac!jtn
Advanced Decision Systems	Internet:  jtn@potomac.ads.com
1500 Wilson Blvd #512; Arlington, VA 22209-2401		(703) 243-1611

"The only thing more useless than a Faberge' egg is a coffee table
picture book about Faberge' eggs"

You people who are cross-posting to comp.sys.next and all the
other groups probably ought to re-think it.  Post ONLY to
the single group that pertains to your subject.

Type Pnews, or whatever command is resident to your system to
originate an article.  If you are following up an article, amend
the  newsgroups header to the single group that is most appropriate.

When all else fails, reread the files in the newusers and important
newsgroups talking about etiquette.  I got chewed out for this
once, too, so I thought you may want a gentle reminder.

John Glasscock                          Indiana University
glasscoc@cica.cica.indiana.edu          Bloomington, Indiana