🚀 go-pugleaf

Meanwhile, back in reality, the Cleveland Freenet was costing a large
pile of money to continue to run with only a fraction of the users it 
once had, largely due to it not having a snazzy graphical interface, 
in my humble opinion.  It was great in it's time, but let's keep some
perspective.  Your session here helps prove this.  At it's highest point
it had well over 100 users active through most hours of the day and into
the wee hours of the morning.  I'm all in favor of private universities
such as this one funding projects that better life for the community 
at large, but cutting this one was very justifiable given the reduced
use it was seeing...

In article <blhc86$lgl$1@blackout.DMS.cwru.edu> you wrote:

: Meanwhile, back in reality, the Cleveland Freenet was costing a large
: pile of money to continue to run with only a fraction of the users it
: once had, largely due to it not having a snazzy graphical interface,
: in my humble opinion.  It was great in it's time, but let's keep some
: perspective.

        Well, I disagree about cause and effect here.

        Freenet was a fairly orderly *community* system until it was
opened up for outside telnet access, sometime around 1992-ish.  Before then,
it was dialup-only, (216) 368-8888, a Cleveland-local call.  Thereafter,
the alt.flame and alt.tasteless mentality of raw USENET invaded many of the
popular hangouts.  Not that cwru.general didn't always have its own
flamewars.  But when immigrants trashed the Literary Sig by posting porn
and let's-see-how-far-we-can-go stuff, and CWRU did not support the sysops
in their efforts to get the posters bounced for not following the SIG
rules, it was clear that the system was doomed.  And it was never about
"freedom of expression".  People could create SIGs where they could do
whatever they wanted.  It's just that certain people wanted to do everything
everywhere, all the time.  You like flames?  Fine, create the Flame SIG
and go flame there...and keep it there.  You think the Literary SIG is
too genteel?  Fine, create a SIG for what you like to read, and talk about
it there.  Just respect the borders of the SIGs.  *THAT* was what CWRU
admins refused to do:  to acknowledge that there were indigenous cultures
on Freenet that deserved to be respected and preserved, while allowing new
and different cultures to be created.  Instead, we got a mass extinction.

        By not enforcing (or allowing sysops to enforce) the prevailing
congenial community standards, Freenet became a rough place that wasn't
much fun to visit, if alt.flame-behavior wasn't to your taste.  When
it was dialup-only, someone would have to have been pretty financially
motivated to call in long-distance to play around.  And of course, by the
end, modem pools were old, creaky, and unreliable, so even connecting was
a hassle.

        In my view, CWRU created a community, then allowed it to be
destroyed, and then used the fact that it was now a wasteland to justify
not putting anything else into it.  No vision.

        I'm sure it was a hassle for you, Bob, and everyone else on the
inside who had to do the gruntwork and maintenance with no support.  But
for those on the outside, who had been part of the *community*, we really
felt hung out to dry by CWRU.  Especially when CWRU *did* try to tout it
as a big thing when they were knowlingly not putting anything back into it.

        I value interactive communities.  Perhaps it's the age I am, perhaps
it's the computers that I've called my hobbies (which needed communities to
survive).  Whatever your favorite community, or community format (mailing
list, newsgroup, chat, etc.), respect other communities.

        YMMV,

        *Rich*
-- 
Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D.            | "Aplysia californica" is your taxonomic
Department of Biology, Slug Division | nomenclature.  /  A slug, by any other
Case Western Reserve University      | name, is still a slug by nature.
Cleveland, Ohio  44106-7080  U.S.A.  |     -- apologies to Data, "Ode to Spot"

In article <blhc86$lgl$1@blackout.DMS.cwru.edu> you wrote:

: Meanwhile, back in reality, the Cleveland Freenet was costing a large
: pile of money to continue to run with only a fraction of the users it
: once had, largely due to it not having a snazzy graphical interface,
: in my humble opinion.  It was great in it's time, but let's keep some
: perspective.

        Well, I disagree about cause and effect here.

        Freenet was a fairly orderly *community* system until it was
opened up for outside telnet access, sometime around 1992-ish.  Before then,
it was dialup-only, (216) 368-8888, a Cleveland-local call.  Thereafter,
the alt.flame and alt.tasteless mentality of raw USENET invaded many of the
popular hangouts.  Not that cwru.general didn't always have its own
flamewars.  But when immigrants trashed the Literary Sig by posting porn
and let's-see-how-far-we-can-go stuff, and CWRU did not support the sysops
in their efforts to get the posters bounced for not following the SIG
rules, it was clear that the system was doomed.  And it was never about
"freedom of expression".  People could create SIGs where they could do
whatever they wanted.  It's just that certain people wanted to do everything
everywhere, all the time.  You like flames?  Fine, create the Flame SIG
and go flame there...and keep it there.  You think the Literary SIG is
too genteel?  Fine, create a SIG for what you like to read, and talk about
it there.  Just respect the borders of the SIGs.  *THAT* was what CWRU
admins refused to do:  to acknowledge that there were indigenous cultures
on Freenet that deserved to be respected and preserved, while allowing new
and different cultures to be created.  Instead, we got a mass extinction.

        By not enforcing (or allowing sysops to enforce) the prevailing
congenial community standards, Freenet became a rough place that wasn't
much fun to visit, if alt.flame-behavior wasn't to your taste.  When
it was dialup-only, someone would have to have been pretty financially
motivated to call in long-distance to play around.  And of course, by the
end, modem pools were old, creaky, and unreliable, so even connecting was
a hassle.

        In my view, CWRU created a community, then allowed it to be
destroyed, and then used the fact that it was now a wasteland to justify
not putting anything else into it.  No vision.

        I'm sure it was a hassle for you, Bob, and everyone else on the
inside who had to do the gruntwork and maintenance with no support.  But
for those on the outside, who had been part of the *community*, we really
felt hung out to dry by CWRU.  Especially when CWRU *did* try to tout it
as a big thing when they were knowingly not putting anything back into it.

        I value interactive communities.  Perhaps it's the age I am, perhaps
it's the computers that I've called my hobbies (which needed communities to
survive).  Whatever your favorite community, or community format (mailing
list, newsgroup, chat, etc.), respect other communities.

        YMMV,

        *Rich*
-- 
Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D.            | "Aplysia californica" is your taxonomic
Department of Biology, Slug Division | nomenclature.  /  A slug, by any other
Case Western Reserve University      | name, is still a slug by nature.
Cleveland, Ohio  44106-7080  U.S.A.  |     -- apologies to Data, "Ode to Spot"

In article <blhc86$lgl$1@blackout.DMS.cwru.edu> you wrote:

: Meanwhile, back in reality, the Cleveland Freenet was costing a large
: pile of money to continue to run with only a fraction of the users it
: once had, largely due to it not having a snazzy graphical interface,
: in my humble opinion.  It was great in it's time, but let's keep some
: perspective.

        Well, I disagree about cause and effect here.

        Freenet was a fairly orderly *community* system until it was
opened up for outside telnet access, sometime around 1992-ish.  Before then,
it was dialup-only, (216) 368-3888, a Cleveland-local call.  Thereafter,
the alt.flame and alt.tasteless mentality of raw USENET invaded many of the
popular hangouts.  Not that cwru.general didn't always have its own
flamewars.  But when immigrants trashed the Literary Sig by posting porn
and let's-see-how-far-we-can-go stuff, and CWRU did not support the sysops
in their efforts to get the posters bounced for not following the SIG
rules, it was clear that the system was doomed.  And it was never about
"freedom of expression".  People could create SIGs where they could do
whatever they wanted.  It's just that certain people wanted to do everything
everywhere, all the time.  You like flames?  Fine, create the Flame SIG
and go flame there...and keep it there.  You think the Literary SIG is
too genteel?  Fine, create a SIG for what you like to read, and talk about
it there.  Just respect the borders of the SIGs.  *THAT* was what CWRU
admins refused to do:  to acknowledge that there were indigenous cultures
on Freenet that deserved to be respected and preserved, while allowing new
and different cultures to be created.  Instead, we got a mass extinction.

        By not enforcing (or allowing sysops to enforce) the prevailing
congenial community standards, Freenet became a rough place that wasn't
much fun to visit, if alt.flame-behavior wasn't to your taste.  When
it was dialup-only, someone would have to have been pretty financially
motivated to call in long-distance to play around.  And of course, by the
end, modem pools were old, creaky, and unreliable, so even connecting was
a hassle.

        In my view, CWRU created a community, then allowed it to be
destroyed, and then used the fact that it was now a wasteland to justify
not putting anything else into it.  No vision.

        I'm sure it was a hassle for you, Bob, and everyone else on the
inside who had to do the gruntwork and maintenance with no support.  But
for those on the outside, who had been part of the *community*, we really
felt hung out to dry by CWRU.  Especially when CWRU *did* try to tout it
as a big thing when they were knowingly not putting anything back into it.

        I value interactive communities.  Perhaps it's the age I am, perhaps
it's the computers that I've called my hobbies (which needed communities to
survive).  Whatever your favorite community, or community format (mailing
list, newsgroup, chat, etc.), respect other communities.

        YMMV,

        *Rich*
-- 
Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D.            | "Aplysia californica" is your taxonomic
Department of Biology, Slug Division | nomenclature.  /  A slug, by any other
Case Western Reserve University      | name, is still a slug by nature.
Cleveland, Ohio  44106-7080  U.S.A.  |     -- apologies to Data, "Ode to Spot"

So, what you're saying is that CWRU should have kept it less accessible
and maintained a higher level of censorship, with little fiefdoms where one
(or a small number 5 or less) decided what's appropriate for their individual
community to view?  

I know you're feeling sentimental, I do to sometimes too, and no I wasn't involved
in the maintenance of Freenet past it's glory years.  

But let's not ignore that large scale censorship is fraught with problems, too...
such as...

needing a large staff to arbitrate the large resulting number of disputes
on the cases that aren't obvious

once you enter into it you're likely to get sued both for cases where you didn't
exercise your censorship powers and for those where you did, as each party will
feel wronged by your actions

Censorship issues aside, there's still the main point that I had about it not 
being slick and graphical.  How many other text based BBS's are heavily used 
these days?  I'd suspect the number is orders of magnitude smaller now than 
it was in 1995...

Like it or not we're in a point and click world now and being a private source of
funding there was just no way to fund the upgrades both in hardware as well as 
software to make the Cleveland Freenet adapt...

"Bob Hetzel" <beh@blackout.DMS.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:blho10$m7n$1@blackout.DMS.cwru.edu...
> How many other text based BBS's are heavily used
> these days?  I'd suspect the number is orders of magnitude smaller now
than
> it was in 1995...

Unfortunately few.

However, I think the mere fact that these newsgroups get the traffic they do
speaks testaments to how much some people appreciate the medium

I can't stand ritz and glitz, which is one of the reasons I am of the
opinion
that the main campus webpage is simply crap.  Form over substance.

I have lamented many times the loss of CFN, and still miss it to this day.
If
it were come back tomorrow, no I do not think it would have the "glamour" it
did
when I started using it back in 1992 (I was a dial-up user at the time).
Yes
I am still nostalgic for the good ol' days that I know can never be
repeated.

However, at the same time I have seen nothing to fill the vacuum when CFN
went
away.

Scratch that.  I do.  It's called IRC.  Yeah... I hear the boos and hisses.
But
a lot of what I *did* miss is now in the irc network here on campus:

irc.cwru.edu
irc2.cwru.edu

and it's off-campus brethren (sponsored by an unnamed geek co-op *cough*)

irc.froggynet.com

There *is* a community there and while it's not the same by any stretch of
the
imagination I have had students, staff and alumni tell me time and time
again,
"Thanks, Froggy, I reallly like irc" or "I was able to connect with a lot of
my
old dorm mates", etc. etc.

So, I'm not sure what my point in this reply is other than this:

CFN went away, I got pissed.  I missed my community.  *MY* community...
without
one I lose my identity.  So, once i had the means and the authority, I
created
it myself out of my own resources.  Why?  Because it fills a need for me
and,
apparantly, a need in the campus community as a whole.  At times there are
50
people on the server in 10 channels, at others there are only 20 or 30
people

The point is, they are there and they're talking!  A far cry from when I
first
opened it up and it was the same 2 or 3 people talking on one channel.

People *need* community... something easily accessible.  Freenet was.  IRC
is.
It's ubiquitous.  No web page, web community or what-have-you is going to
fill
that void.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but dammit it works.

And no I'm not yelling at you Bob, on the contrary, I highly respect you for
all of the work you are doing and have done in the past.  Simply consider
this
a directionless flame bemoaning The Way We Wuz and looking forward to
demonstrating that if it ain't there, you gotta do it yourself.

- Froggy

In cwru.general Bob Hetzel <beh@blackout.dms.cwru.edu> wrote:

: So, what you're saying is that CWRU should have kept it less accessible
: and maintained a higher level of censorship, with little fiefdoms where one
: (or a small number 5 or less) decided what's appropriate for their individual
: community to view?  

	Yep :-)  That's what community standards are, a community consensus.
I think a balance could have been found between cabal and what we got, which
was no standards.  You could guarantee equality of opportunity to create a
new community if an existing one wasn't to your liking, but never guarantee
that everywhere you'd go on Freenet, it would be exactly the same.  All
Sesame Street is as restrictive as all red-light...

: But let's not ignore that large scale censorship is fraught with problems, too...

	House rules.  Post 'em up front.  Play nice with my toys or out
you go.  If everyone is a little tolerant, everyone can play.


: Censorship issues aside, there's still the main point that I had about it not 
: being slick and graphical.  How many other text based BBS's are heavily used 
: these days?

	Of course Freenet 2003 wouldn't be a text-based BBS!  It should have
begun evolving away from that in 1995, been on the cutting edge of trying to
find an efficienty point-clicky interface.  Then it would have always been
"New and improved!" and provided perpetual bragging rights for the PR
marketroids.  And maybe even some real human interface research might have
come out of it, certainly a lot of users to get feedback from!

	Different values, different priorities, a lot could have been
done with the Freenet concept.  Clearly CWRU wasn't interested.  I'm
sorry that they weren't.

	*Rich*
-- 
Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D.            | "Aplysia californica" is your taxonomic
Department of Biology, Slug Division | nomenclature.  /  A slug, by any other
Case Western Reserve University      | name, is still a slug by nature.
Cleveland, Ohio  44106-7080  U.S.A.  |     -- apologies to Data, "Ode to Spot"

In cwru.general Bob Hetzel <beh@blackout.dms.cwru.edu> wrote:

: So, what you're saying is that CWRU should have kept it less accessible
: and maintained a higher level of censorship, with little fiefdoms where one
: (or a small number 5 or less) decided what's appropriate for their individual
: community to view?

        Yep :-)  That's what community standards are, a community consensus.
I think a balance could have been found between cabal and what we got, which
was no standards.  You could guarantee equality of opportunity to create a
new community if an existing one wasn't to your liking, but never guarantee
that everywhere you'd go on Freenet, it would be exactly the same.  All
Sesame Street is as restrictive as all red-light...

: But let's not ignore that large scale censorship is fraught with problems,
: too...

        House rules.  Post 'em up front.  Play nice with my toys or out
you go.  If everyone is a little tolerant, everyone can play.

: Censorship issues aside, there's still the main point that I had about it not
: being slick and graphical.  How many other text based BBS's are heavily used
: these days?

        Of course Freenet 2003 wouldn't be a text-based BBS!  It should have
begun evolving away from that in 1995, been on the cutting edge of trying to
find an efficient pointy-clicky interface.  Then it would have always been
"New and improved!" and provided perpetual bragging rights for the PR
marketroids.  And maybe even some real human interface research might have
come out of it, certainly a lot of users to get feedback from!

        Different values, different priorities, a lot could have been
done with the Freenet concept.  Clearly CWRU wasn't interested.  I'm
sorry that they weren't.

        *Rich*
-- 
Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D.            | "Aplysia californica" is your taxonomic
Department of Biology, Slug Division | nomenclature.  /  A slug, by any other
Case Western Reserve University      | name, is still a slug by nature.
Cleveland, Ohio  44106-7080  U.S.A.  |     -- apologies to Data, "Ode to Spot"

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Hash: SHA1

Not that this is highly relevant, but I have to say that some online
text-based communities are still going strong... There is a MUD called
Medievia (telnet://medievia.com:4000) that took more than a hundred
hours of my life last year (bored during free periods in High School).
Most of the time I was on, there were between 800 and 900 members on at
the same time as I. It is so popular because it was great fun, huge
(more than 4 million rooms as of some time last year) and the admins
added new sections and contests ("quests") almost every week. It's still
strong to this day (which surprises even me), mainly because of the hard
work of the sysops and the great community. I've used IRC for the past
two or three years, but it definitely lacks _something_ that you just
can't get in a BBS or MUD system. Just wanted to get my $0.02 in, not
trying to disrupt the flam^H^H^H^H discussion in progress...

- --Brandon Siegel
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In article <blhqdp$pgg$2@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>,
Richard F. Drushel <rfd@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>        Of course Freenet 2003 wouldn't be a text-based BBS!  It should have
>begun evolving away from that in 1995, been on the cutting edge of trying to
>find an efficient pointy-clicky interface.

Parts of it did, starting in 1992 or so.

Mike Kukura and I discussed ways of building a pointy-clicky interface
to Free-Net.  We talked about designing a protocol for it.

Then Gopher came out.  The similarities were obvious.  I proposed
converting Free-Net to Gopher, and even had a student employee develop
an automated Free-Net to Gopher menu translator as a proof of concept.
I don't remember how, exactly we did it, but we did move the CWRUnet
portions of Free-Net over to Gopher, and soon thereafter, to the WWW.

Eventually that evolved into the campus web services we have today,
including Blackboard.  I didn't have a hand in that evolution, however.

I don't think that turning CFN into AOL would have been a smart move.

By the way, *I* think that the biggest factor in killing Free-Net's
community feel was its change of mission into being a free Internet
access point.  After that happened, the majority of dial-in users
used CFN to get out into Internet resources, not to participate in local
discussions, and many of the Internet users were doing the same!
(There was an art, for a while, of chaining from one dumb-terminal
Internet service to another until you could get to whatever you really
wanted to access.)

It was pretty obvious, by the time CFN died, that technology had left
it behind.  I thought a bit about how to recreate the Cleveland-centered
SIGs on the web, then discarded the idea.  Some of what the cyberpunk
authors write is true -- global networking enables us to form communities
with anyone, anywhere.  Geography has lost its relevance to online
communities.

         Stephen

-- 
Stephen Trier
Technical Development Lab
Cleveland FES Center
sct@po.cwru.edu

By the way, just in case anyone thinks my phrase "the majority of Free-Net
users" is rhetorical, it is actually factual.  Irene and I several times
sampled what applications people were actually using.

          Stephen

-- 
Stephen Trier
Technical Development Lab
Cleveland FES Center
sct@po.cwru.edu

This is the reason I MUD at BatMUD in Finland (www.bat.org)

- Froggy

To continue in the same vein of online community... Have a read through 
this somewhat lengthy thread over at ArsTechnica.  As backstory 
information, "The Lounge" is a subscribers-only area of the forums that is 
the ONLY "anything goes" section.  Most other sections of the site are 100% 
technical in nature, but the Lounge is a catch-all.

http://monkey.org/sl/8f91e519  [arstechnica.infopop.net]

Ars is widely known as one of the most intelligent, inviting, and friendly 
boards on the Intarweb.  I highly recommend reading the tech forums for a 
while.  You'll get slowly sucked in and will eventually come to love the 
place.  ;)  You can read everything with NO account at all, but to post 
requires a FREE, no-spamming account.  Certain areas require a paid 
subscription to post.

They have a saying at Ars: you can log off, but you can NEVER leave.

<3 Ars

--Braden
(ZPrime@Ars)

-- 
Take off every .sig !!  You know what you doing !!  For great justice.

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Ah, now CFN...that brings back memories. I was really sad when they
shut it down. In fact, when they did that, I called up all the old
BBS's that I used to hang out on. Very few still worked. I believe
flip-flop was one of them and analytical engine was up too. Anyone
know if these are still around? CFN was truly my first "online"
experience at whatever age it was when i started using it(7-8?) It
was also the driving force for me to go find a shell account so I
could ytalk and compile things. Next came running a MUSE(Anyone
remember DSMUSE?) where I learned to code on a rather large scale.
And now, I'm here at cwru as a CE major...So, in a way, CFN is
responsible for me being here. :)

*sighs* Nostalgia is bliss.

Later,
Kris (aka ar838, and on rare occasion, aa797 ;)
EECS

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"Paul Schneider" <froggy@eecs.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:blroe3$2tt$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
> This is the reason I MUD at BatMUD in Finland (www.bat.org)

Hey, I used to play BatMUD way back in the day ('94-96 or so).

I'm glad that MUD communities are still staying strong in the face of
graphical MMOGs, although I am an avid EQ player and have logged into BatMUD
maybe twice since 1999 (when EQ came out).

Barry