🚀 go-pugleaf

mike (mike@coconut.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> Hello Malcolm

> I've kept very quiet so far since I first got my Demon account, but really
> felt I had to say something.
>  
>       In article <821047794.7396@thokk.demon.co.uk>
>       malcolm@demon.net (Malcolm Muir) said:-

>       (In response to an article posted by Neil Martin)


> >Demon sell internet conenctivity. They did not (until recently with
> >Turnpike) sell *any* software. None at all for any platform.

> Point taken, but if they are backing and selling PC software, what's wrong
> with doing the same for other popular computers?

Nothing at all, provided there is a reliable supported commercial
product to sell and we have the capability to support the product.
Turnpike software is our first venture into selling such a service,
more may follow.


> >What was purchased was an account to permit connection to the
> >internet. How that connection is established is entirely down to the
> >account holder and Demon have no knowledge nor wish to be involved
> >in the decision of what machine and software is being used.

> By not recommending and supporting software, Demon are potentially allowing
> people to disrupt their services by using inappropriate software.

No - our services are configured such that it should not be possible
to disrupt them in this way. We want users to be able to connect
anything they wish to the service, at least within the bounds of the
service they purchase.

> >That the account that was sold works can not be disputed. There are
> >50,000 successful account holders a vast number of which sucessfully
> >connect daily. There are over 1,000 connections established to Demon
> >at any time of day or night. No one can dispute that Demon accounts
> >work and permit connection to the Internet (Quality of the sevice once
> >connected is a different issue).

> I estimate that 1 in 3 of my calls to my local PoP fail to connect with
> anything of Demon's (and that's using both the original NOS and Oasis.)

Why is this not the experience of all our customers then ? Most of our
customers are able to connect at what would be considered the norm for
modem connections in the UK. Other do have problems, but these are
ususally eventually traced to configuration or poor line problems.

> >That Mr. Harrop was unable to get the computer he chose to use and the
> >software he chose to install on it to connect to the service is I
> >regret to say his problem. Demon did enact their part of the contract
> >bu setting up an account for him to use. That account was available to
> >him and the terms of business require that he pay the set up charge
> >and a minimum of one month connect charges.


> Demon supply Atari software for use in connecting to their system, thereby
> implying that they are aware that there are Atari users out there. They
> should state clearly if their system has difficulty coping with Ataris
> before opening an account.

NO NO NO - Demon do not *SUPPLY* any Atari software. Demon allow users
access to Atari Shareware and PD software. We help users obtain it,
but it is not on the basis of supply. No money or contract exists
between Demon and our customers for the supply of Atari software. The
closest that we come is supplying *disks* on which we copy 3rd. party
software for the convenience of customers.

As regards difficulty in connecting from Atari's we are aware of many
Atari users that sucessfully connect to the service. This is proof
that connection to our service is possible from a correctly configured
Atari. There is even a newsgroup where Atari users exchange
information, this is proof in itself that connection from an Atari is
viable.

> >The fact that Demon provided support to him in order to try to get him
> >started is incidental. The support service is principally to answer 
> >queries on the use of the service. We do not offer software support as
> >part of the subscription fee, but on the basis of best endevours to
> >assist our customers.

> I only opened an account with Demon because I was under the impression that
> the company was Atari-friendly. I have never made use of the support
> service, but find it very hard to believe that they don't have an Atari
> set-up to at least make an effort to help.

We did have such, but there was little demand. The 'expert' left the
company and the level of demand for Atari support is such that we have
not seen the need to actively recruit an expert.

The departure of our expert however does not make Demon any less Atari
friendly. We offer the same internet connection interface to all our
customers, regardless of their platform.

> >Demon fulfilled their part of the contract, they are therefore 
> >entitled to be paid, even given the unfortunate circumstances that Mr.
> >Harrop was unable to get his choice of hardware and software to work.

> If Demon were more upfront in regard to the many (IMHO) problems being
> encountered by Atari users, then Atari users wouldn't waste their money and
> Demon's time in setting up the account. I specifically stated that I owned
> an Atari when I opened the account. There was no mention of the fact that
> using Ataris with Demon is difficult.

Connection with an Atari is no more difficult that with any other
machine. What may be more difficult is obtaining and configuring
software to make that connection.

> If it wasn't for the help of an ex-Atari user, who changed to a PC because
> of the problems he had with using an ST with Demon, I would probably never
> even been able to send this posting.

So he can connect from the PC but not from the Atari. In what way does
this make our service unfriendly to Atari ? What was changed at our
end for his account to work with the PC ?  [nothing]

> Although I do not expect Demon to spend hours on the phone teaching me how
> to use my software, I did expect them to make me aware of the problems I
> would encounter. 

How can we be aware of the problems you will encounter ? Everyones
experience of setting up an internet connection differs. Look in the
newsgroups for evidence of this.

> The software I downloaded from Demon's BBS was NOS 0.41, which was out of
> date. The documentation made, in many cases, little reference to the ST, if
> at all. It was only through help of other people, that I was able to source
> a copy of Oasis 1.34. Only since then, have I been able to make any use of
> Demon's services.

The FTP server / BBS only hold software that has been uploaded by
helpful users. None of it is Demon software. All of it is on the basis
of 'take it as you find it'

If you want software that is guaranteed to work and supported, you
have to pay for it from an appropriate supplier. Demon for example
have just released a supported and guaranteed Windows product for the
PC. This however can not be downloaded from anywhere, but is supplied
by post.

> My suggestion is that Demon, if they are to keep Atari-users with their
> service is to at least make sure that their downloaded software is more
> up-to-date, the documentation is relevant, and they provide some form of
> specific Atari tutorial to allow people to get started. If they did this,
> then many people including the gentleman that Neil Martin originally wrote
> about, would have much more of a chance of making use of what they have
> paid for. 

The download software will be more up to date as soon as someone
uploads it. We do not produce or source the software, we do not write
the documentation. You have a choice. Use what is free with all the
implications of free software or pay for support. Demon are in the
internet conenction business, not software support business, at least
as far as the Atari and most other platforms are concerned.

> I know Malcolm that you are not speaking for Demon officially, but perhaps
> you could make them aware of the problems being faced by many Atari-users.
> I for one have very seriously considered cancelling my Demon account. I
> will not make a hasty decision, but if the problems I am constantly facing
> don't get any better soon, I'm off elsewhere.

If you consider you will do better elsewhere, that is your option.
Demon are aware of the need to move towards supported software, but
that will always be at additional cost to the user. We are already
moving in this direction with Windows on the PC and the Turnpike
package. I can only suggest that you are very careful in selecting
another supplier to check what you are actually purchasing.

> Sorry if I have rambled, but I do think Demon are partly to blame for many
> of the Atari-related problems. I don't hold them responsible for links
> outside their own network, but I DO hold them responsible for making access
> to my local PoP a lot more reliable, I am really dreading my next phone
> bill, especially when I see the large amount of wasted phone calls to my
> PoP.

We are aware of problems some users have in accessing some PoP's and
are working on trying to discover the cause. More often than not the
cause is turning out to be external to Demon.

Again, I should note the rider that this is not an official statement
from Demon Internet, but informed personal comment.

-- 
Malcolm S. Muir
Sunderland
England