🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <B5754F9496681856E59@zizek.demon.co.uk>,
Dave@zizek.demon.co.uk (Dave Wilson) wrote:

>Has anyone had a look at Demon's ADSL details?
>There are lots of mentions of Wintel machines as a minimum spec. What are
>they getting at here?
>
>I'm quite taken by the idea of ADSL (although I haven't a clue as to what
>hardware and software is needed at my end). 
>
>Are they just saying that they will only supply the necessary kit for
>Wintel?
>Is there a suitable option for mac users? What would I need?

The whole business of Macs and ADSL is discussed from time to time in
uk.comp.sys.mac- you'll probably get useful info there.

As I remember it, from earlier discussions, it mostly hinges on the (non)
availbility of Mac drivers for the low-end USB TAs for ADSL. The Ethernet
option is perfectly suited to the Mac, but I don't think it's part of the
low cost options.

I may be talking bollocks, but I've cross-posted your query to u..c.s.m.
where there are people who know what they're talking about. Probably.

-- 
Peter

> As I remember it, from earlier discussions, it mostly hinges on the (non)
> availbility of Mac drivers for the low-end USB TAs for ADSL. The Ethernet
> option is perfectly suited to the Mac, but I don't think it's part of the
> low cost options.
> 
> I may be talking bollocks

You are not talking bollocks. I hear rumours that USB drivers for the Mac
are in development, however I have no hard information either way.

I have to be a bit careful what I say, but I *can* make the following
observations about UK ADSL in general without breaching any NDAs.

Be aware that it's a 12-month contract tied to your phone number. Don't
rush into it. Don't plan on moving house. Choose your ISP carefully.

ADSL speed is only as good as its weakest link. If your ISP's internal
networking or external routing (especially transatlantic) isn't up to
snuff, then you may get significantly worse throughput than the nominal
bandwidth. In the worst case you may even get sub-modem performance from
time to time because.

As well as sheer bandwidth, you should also consider factors such as
latency and packet loss. Since ADSL combines TCP/IP packets into much
larger packets on the ATM leg, a small amount of ATM packet loss can easily
casade into much higher levels of packet loss at your end plus wasteful
retransmission of single TCP/IP packets. This can crucify bandwidth.

You may wish to sit on your hands for a few months and see which ISPs are
capable of providing service levels commensurate with ADSL speeds.

You may also wish to see how the unbundling of the local loop in January
affects tariffs before signing a 12-month contract.


Richard.

Followups set to uk.comp.sys.mac.


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In article <B5756AB596681C751@0.0.0.0>,
peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) wrote:

>
>The whole business of Macs and ADSL is discussed from time to time in
>uk.comp.sys.mac- you'll probably get useful info there.

cheers

>As I remember it, from earlier discussions, it mostly hinges on the (non)
>availbility of Mac drivers for the low-end USB TAs for ADSL. The Ethernet
>option is perfectly suited to the Mac, but I don't think it's part of the
>low cost options.
>

Although the Demon ADSL pages specify Wintel for their ethernet option as
well


Dave
Dave@zizek.demon.co.uk

In article <B576A1EA96681D4EA0D@zizek.demon.co.uk>,
Dave@zizek.demon.co.uk (Dave Wilson) wrote:

> Although the Demon ADSL pages specify Wintel for their ethernet option as
> well

This is because Demon's ADSL support depends on BT's ADSL support
for stuff that's BT's fault and BT will only guarentee support for
Wintel.  Where at all possible, Demon are happy to do their best
for Mac users.

Simon.
-- 
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | _Microsoft_ is going to write the software
No junk email please.          | that spies on me? I feel better already.
                               |                         -- John D. Goulden

Dave@zizek.demon.co.uk (Dave Wilson) wrote:
> > Although the Demon ADSL pages specify Wintel for their ethernet
> > option as well...

Simon Slavin wrote:
> 
> This is because Demon's ADSL support depends on BT's ADSL support
> for stuff that's BT's fault and BT will only guarentee support for
> Wintel.  Where at all possible, Demon are happy to do their best
> for Mac users.
> 

I asked BT back in May about Mac support and got this reply (which I
posted in uk.comp.sys.mac at the time) - probably worth repeating it:

====================================================================
> Dear Mr Umpleby, 
>
> Thank you for your enquiry regarding BTopenworld. 
>
> At the moment we do plan to support Mac's with OS 8.1 or higher via
> USB and possibly ethernet connections that have been used in our trial.
> More details should be known nearer the launch date, so keep checking
> the www.btopenworld.com site for more info when we have it. At the
> moment the free installation offer is only for USB. 
>
> I do hope this is of some assistance to you. 
>
> If you have any further problems or enquiries, please do not hesitate
> to contact us by calling the ADSL Enquiries Helpdesk on 0845 6094664
> (calls to the helpdesk are charged at local rate). 
>
> Thank you once again for your valued enquiry. 
>
> Regards 
>
> ADSL Enquiries Helpdesk. 
====================================================================


Latest bit of info I've seen is as follows (from MacWorld UK website
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/top_news_item.cfm?NewsID=1479):


====================================================================

> Still no ADSL for USB Macs
> --------------------------
> BT's long-awaited BTopenworld ADSL service is
> scheduled to go live June 29, but not for the USB
> Mac. 
>
> BT's Technical Support promises USB-based Mac
> access to its service in late summer. 
>
> BT Technical Support present a confused account
> of the reasons for the wait. Two technical
> support operators contacted by Macworld say the
> fault is with Apple, who failed to deliver Mac
> drivers for the BTopenworld service in time. The
> third says the problem rests with the BTopenworld
> software for the Mac, which is still not running
> properly. 
>
> No promise
> ----------
> BT's press department claims it knew nothing of
> any delay in driver delivery on Apple's part, and
> also stressed that BT has only ever promised to
> try to provide USB-Mac support at some point
> after launch. 
>
> Apple UK sources were unavailable for comment. 
====================================================================

What to make of it all... Well, who knows?

I wonder if a few simple calls to the ADSL helpdesk might provide
some greater incentive for BT?

Another question I have is with regard to other operators.
For example, what about Cable & Wireless etc. Is there any reason for
them not to provide an ADSL service? Or am I missing something?

-- 
======================================
  Adrian Umpleby
  adrian@ic.ac.uk
  http://wrench.et.ic.ac.uk/adrian/
======================================

Adrian Umpleby <adrian@ic.ac.uk> wrote:

> Another question I have is with regard to other operators.
> For example, what about Cable & Wireless etc. Is there any reason for
> them not to provide an ADSL service? Or am I missing something?

ADSL is provided over copper wires. Only BT has copper wires going to
your house, and it's going to stay that way until they unbundle the
local loop. I don't actually know what that means, but people seem to be
saying it a lot in this context so I thought I'd better do likewise.
Other telephone operators use optical fibres. Instead of ADSL, you can
get cable modems from them.

That's about the depth and breadth of my knowledge.

Daniele 
-- 
Apple Juice   Macintosh sales, service & support   Cardiff 029 2041 0050
drink.different@apple-juice.co.uk                  www.apple-juice.co.uk

Adrian Umpleby <adrian@ic.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Another question I have is with regard to other operators.
> > For example, what about Cable & Wireless etc. Is there any reason for
> > them not to provide an ADSL service? Or am I missing something?
> 
Daniele Procida wrote:
> 
> ADSL is provided over copper wires. Only BT has copper wires going to
> your house, and it's going to stay that way until they unbundle the
> local loop. I don't actually know what that means, but people seem to be
> saying it a lot in this context so I thought I'd better do likewise.
> Other telephone operators use optical fibres. Instead of ADSL, you can
> get cable modems from them.
> 

Ah, of course - the copper/fibre part hadn't connected before
(if you'll 'scuse the pun).

So could somebody now please explain what the 'local loop' is, and why
'unbundling' it is A Good (Necessary) Thing for other operators and
ADSL?

-- 
======================================
  Adrian Umpleby
  adrian@ic.ac.uk
  http://wrench.et.ic.ac.uk/adrian/
======================================

Adrian Umpleby <adrian@ic.ac.uk> wrote:

> So could somebody now please explain what the 'local loop' is, and why
> 'unbundling' it is A Good (Necessary) Thing for other operators and
> ADSL?

The local loop is the part of the telephone line from BT's exchange to
your house/flat/shed. i.e 'your' telephone line. 

Unbundling it means that other operators would be able to connect your
line to their equipment rather than BT's equipment .... therefore they
have control over your line rather than needing BT to do x, y or z to
provide the service you require. 

Being as the line starts inside BT's exchanges, and this being a
commercially sensitive area, I can't see BT being too helpful at
allowing any other operator access to your line. The fact that they have
to doesn't mean they're going to make it easy ..... Mercury
Communications had a lot of unforseen problems when they tried to gain
access to BT distribution frames (inside the exchange). 

It is a good thing because it removes BT from the equation completely.
But it'll cost .. and someone's going to want to recover that money from
somewhere. 

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:42:52 +0100, Daniele Procida wrote
(in message <1ecoklc.1ktaaps19uq58gN%procida@apple-juice.co.uk>):

> Adrian Umpleby <adrian@ic.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Another question I have is with regard to other operators.
>> For example, what about Cable & Wireless etc. Is there any reason for
>> them not to provide an ADSL service? Or am I missing something?
> 
> ADSL is provided over copper wires. Only BT has copper wires going to
> your house, and it's going to stay that way until they unbundle the
> local loop. I don't actually know what that means, but people seem to be
> saying it a lot in this context so I thought I'd better do likewise.
> Other telephone operators use optical fibres. Instead of ADSL, you can
> get cable modems from them.
> 
> That's about the depth and breadth of my knowledge.
> 
> Daniele 
> 

don't ntl have copper wires going to my house? My phone connection doesn't 
seem to be anything special until it gets to the box at the end of the road, 
which presumably converts to fibre optic.

> 
> It is a good thing because it removes BT from the equation completely.
Great!
> But it'll cost .. and someone's going to want to recover that money from
> somewhere. 
Thinking laterally - the UK is about 1/50th the area of the US (could be
wrong here but no matter methinks...) we have 1/4 the population of the
states.

Yet we pay through the nose for local calls?

So what gives?

Fat cats prowling around Westminster maintaining their double helpings of
cream are what makes the UK too bloomin expensive.

The sooner the monopolies are broken up the better I say. But I think that
the 3G mobiles will have a big impact on internat access - after all if you
can get 100kb/sec in July using GPRS why should you worry about installing a
modem down a local loop?

Slainte

Torc

Dave@zizek.demon.co.uk (Dave Wilson) wrote:
> > Although the Demon ADSL pages specify Wintel for their ethernet
> > option as well...

Simon Slavin wrote:
> 
> This is because Demon's ADSL support depends on BT's ADSL support
> for stuff that's BT's fault and BT will only guarentee support for
> Wintel.  Where at all possible, Demon are happy to do their best
> for Mac users.
> 

I actually emailled Alcatel support about a release date for Mac (USB)
drivers who replied:

=============================
> Dear Mr Wilkins,
> 
> Alcatel will have MAC drivers in the second half of 2000. These drivers
> are currently being developed in close relationship with Apple.
> 
> Actually, it is Apple itself that has convinced us to stay with 8.6 and 9
> for the time being, as the driver will be available long before the
> operating system X has made its mass-market entrance, and the installed
> base is onto 8.6 or even 9 now. Therefore the focus is on these two, but a
> separate team is already looking into X, and this should be available not
> long after the first release.
> 
> Yves Petit
==============================

(I don't know what prompted the last paragraph, I didn't actually ask
anything about OS X). When pushed to be more specific about a release
date, the response was:

==============================
> Dear Dave,
> 
> I have to stick to the comment that we will release these drivers in the
> second half of the year.
> 
> Although we have a planned date within the Apple and Alcatel development
> teams, this does not guarantee any release at that point, nor do we commit
> to this date. I can however confirm this date is in Q3, so this rules out
> any release at December 30th :-)
> 
> I hope this answers your question a bit more. We will keep you up to date
> via our website at http://www.alcateldsl.com on the actual release date
> when the development is in a further stadium.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Yves Petit
================================

So, hopefully, sometime in the next 3 months.

Dave Wilkins

Torc <torcuill@torcuill.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Fat cats prowling around Westminster maintaining their double helpings of
> cream are what makes the UK too bloomin expensive.

Don't forget Mr Norman Tebbit was taken on to the board of directors
after leaving the Commons.

The fact that he was the minister responsible for BTs privatisation (at
a level below its true market value) is utter coincidence.

This sort of thing happens all the time :-(


Gwynne

ObMac: err - how about they don't liek MPs to use Macs in the House,
'cos they "aren't supported".

Simon Dobbs wrote:
>
> > ADSL is provided over copper wires. Only BT has copper wires going to
> > your house, and it's going to stay that way until they unbundle the
> > local loop. I don't actually know what that means, but people seem to be
> > saying it a lot in this context so I thought I'd better do likewise.
> > Other telephone operators use optical fibres. Instead of ADSL, you can
> > get cable modems from them.

Strictly speaking all you need is a direct connection between you
and your ISP. The phone co. just provides that connection and
removes that line from the 'exchange' (router) part of the exchange.
The DSL modems can drive lots of data down a wire (but less the
longer the wire), but put it through an exchange that chops
everything down to 64kpbs to multiplex into the trunk routes
tends to put an upper limit on normal phone lines.

For further info:-
http://www.odessaoffice.com/sdsl.htm
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/04/03/2147239.shtml

> 
> don't ntl have copper wires going to my house? My phone connection doesn't
> seem to be anything special until it gets to the box at the end of the road,
> which presumably converts to fibre optic.

I suspect that all the ntl works with wires (co-axial cables)
since they can carry an enormous amount of data. Even from the
box at the end of the street.

Cheers

David

Simon Dobbs <std@revealer.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >> Another question I have is with regard to other operators.
> >> For example, what about Cable & Wireless etc. Is there any reason for
> >> them not to provide an ADSL service? Or am I missing something?
> > 
> > ADSL is provided over copper wires. Only BT has copper wires going to
> > your house, and it's going to stay that way until they unbundle the
> > local loop. I don't actually know what that means, but people seem to be
> > saying it a lot in this context so I thought I'd better do likewise.
> > Other telephone operators use optical fibres. Instead of ADSL, you can
> > get cable modems from them.

> don't ntl have copper wires going to my house? My phone connection doesn't
> seem to be anything special until it gets to the box at the end of the road,
> which presumably converts to fibre optic.

You're probably right. But optical fibre:cable modems::copper wire:ADSL
still stands.

Daniele
-- 
Apple Juice   Macintosh sales, service & support   Cardiff 029 2041 0050
drink.different@apple-juice.co.uk                  www.apple-juice.co.uk